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Uncontrolled airport dept question

73belair

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So leaving an uncontrolled airport this morning we get clearence on taxi out. ATC asks when we'll be ready and we say 5 min and says hold for release. He comes back to us and tells us we are released 23-26 void after that. So at 23 we take the runway and depart. Contacting ATC he informs us that we did not get released from the airport. I stated that I thought he released us between 23-26, and he said that was just a window.
I'm thinking he had it wrong, because he said "released between". We were able to reach him via radio, but what if we couldn't and all I could use was a phone in an FBO or something. Then we would go at the "window" that they gave us right?
Am I wrong?
 

Stifler's Mom

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I would have done the same thing as you did.

I would also fill out an ASAP as well. If you are correct in departing, atleast it will bring it to the attention of the Company, Union and the FAA to address it.
 

dispatchguy

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I think you were safe...

5-2-6. Departure Restrictions, Clearance Void Times, Hold for Release, and Release Times

a. ATC may assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, hold for release, and release times, when necessary, to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow.

1. Clearance Void Times. A pilot may receive a clearance, when operating from an airport without a control tower, which contains a provision for the clearance to be void if not airborne by a specific time. A pilot who does not depart prior to the clearance void time must advise ATC as soon as possible of their intentions. ATC will normally advise the pilot of the time allotted to notify ATC that the aircraft did not depart prior to the clearance void time. This time cannot exceed 30 minutes. Failure of an aircraft to contact ATC within 30 minutes after the clearance void time will result in the aircraft being considered overdue and search and rescue procedures initiated.

NOTE-
1. Other IFR traffic for the airport where the clearance is issued is suspended until the aircraft has contacted ATC or until 30 minutes after the clearance void time or 30 minutes after the clearance release time if no clearance void time is issued.

2. Pilots who depart at or after their clearance void time are not afforded IFR separation and may be in violation of 14 CFR Section 91.173 which requires that pilots receive an appropriate ATC clearance before operating IFR in controlled airspace.

EXAMPLE-
Clearance void if not off by (clearance void time) and, if required, if not off by (clearance void time) advise (facility) not later than (time) of intentions.

2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure.

EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) cleared to (destination) airport as filed, maintain (altitude), and, if required (additional instructions or information), hold for release, expect (time in hours and/or minutes) departure delay.

3. Release Times. A "release time" is a departure restriction issued to a pilot by ATC, specifying the earliest time an aircraft may depart. ATC will use "release times" in conjunction with traffic management procedures and/or to separate a departing aircraft from other traffic.

EXAMPLE-
(Aircraft identification) released for departure at (time in hours and/or minutes)

The above is from the AIM. The only thing I can think of is that your 23 mins past and his 23 mins past might not have been the same 23 mins past, and if you popped up say at 22:34, that might have been his issue. The way I take it, the runway is yours from 23:00 until 25:59....
 
Last edited:

Jar Jar

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Yea thats how we do it at uncontrolled fields.

Call them up on taxi out - they give you a release time, void time and advise time.

Your "window" is the time between release and void.

If you depart within that window, you are good-to-go. If you miss your window, you are no longer released.
 

Nevets

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The above is from the AIM. The only thing I can think of is that your 23 mins past and his 23 mins past might not have been the same 23 mins past, and if you popped up say at 22:34, that might have been his issue. The way I take it, the runway is yours from 23:00 until 25:59....

This is why they are also supposed to give you the current time. "Time now is 2220 and one half."
 

Stifler's Mom

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Assuming this happened in the U.S., 2326z would have been, roughly, 8:26pm Eastern Time.

Original poster said it happened this morning...

Actually, 7:26pm, but close enough for gov't work.

What's an hour amongst friends right? :beer:
 

CFI2766

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It's been a while since I've seen a technical question on FI. Kudos to you.

This website used to be different, you know.
 

WMUSIGPI

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I think you were safe...



The above is from the AIM. The only thing I can think of is that your 23 mins past and his 23 mins past might not have been the same 23 mins past, and if you popped up say at 22:34, that might have been his issue. The way I take it, the runway is yours from 23:00 until 25:59....


Well not really, The AIRSPACE is yours, the runway is always uncontrolled.
 

brokeflyer

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he'll either say "released" meaning you go now....or "hold for release" and you wait.

from what you said, it sounds like he fcked up and forgot that he released you.
 

JustaNumber

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...or, perhaps he said and you missed, "EXPECT release 11:23z-11:26z", or he thought he said the expect word but didn't. Although either is unlikely, as I don't believe I've ever heard that phraseology.

I agree with the last guy; most likely he forgot he released you.
 

ASApuppy

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Something we need to know is the length of time from when he gave you the time window to the time window. I believe this verbage from ATC was intended to be "expect release". Very similar to Ground Cont giving you the same thing. It does not mean you are cleared at that time. I would have called back ready to go at beginning of the window and heard the words "you are released, void in 5 min". Or something similar. If the delay was 20 minutes or so, and you just popped up, yeah, I hear his point. If ATC reports this, I don't know exactly what ASAP will provide you with, since this would no longer be sole-source.
 

brokeflyer

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they wont say "expect release" just for the purpose of confusion. You are either "released" or "hold for release"
 

JustaNumber

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Asapuppy,
It doesn't have to be sole-source for you to benefit from ASAP. Here's my understanding of how it works (at ASA at least):

If it is a sole-source incident, if it is accepted into the ASAP program (meaning nothing intentional or criminal), then the absolute worst case scenario is you get an electronic response closing out the matter (which is essentially the same as it never happened).

If it's a non-sole-source incident that's your fault (the FAA gets wind of it some other way), then without ASAP the worst case scenario is you get a violation in your file, possibly accompanied by a suspension or revocation of your certificate. The best case scenario would be a letter of warning in your file.

With ASAP in a non-sole-source incident that's your fault, the best case scenario is an electronic response (it goes away); worst case scenario is you get a warning letter (which is not a violation, and it drops out of your file after two years). So you can see that if there's ANY chance of the FAA finding something out (which is always the case), then you are always better off with ASAP. You can't lose.

(Somebody please correct me if my understanding is flawed).
 
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