Unbiased Verbiage for Ticket Factory

[harrier]

I am writing a survey as part of my thesis and beating my head against the wall on one point. I want to ask about 'certificate mills' or 'ticket factories' but I can't use those terms as they are obviously biased. How would you describe a school that is known in the industry as a ticket factory without bias?

One person suggested a 'part 141 flight school with testing authorization'. Someone else said a 'school devoted to accelerated training' or a 'school devoted to training future airline pilots'. All are basically correct, but if you read a survey, would you know it was referring to the certificate mills out there? What phraseology would make it clear to you?

Thanks in advance! harrier

 

[frog_flyer]

what sort of ... ticket factories are we talking about here.... ?


lets have some names

 

[harrier]

You know, like "Ticket Factories R Us", "You Ain't Need A Learn Nuthin, Just Give Us Cash" and "1 Day Pilot Licenses Guaranteed"

Haha I can't name real ones! Holy flame war batman!

 

[Metro752]

You know, like "Ticket Factories R Us", "You Ain't Need A Learn Nuthin, Just Give Us Cash" and "1 Day Pilot Licenses Guaranteed"

Haha I can't name real ones! Holy flame war batman!

You are the Grand Master Lurker. FOUR years on this board and 2 posts. HOW??

 

[minitour]

One person suggested a 'part 141 flight school with testing authorization'.

You do realize to obtain and retain examining authority there are several things that have to be in line.

One of those is the pass rate for students that have already taken the course over the past 24 months with a DPE/fed.

I fail to see how a school that obviously does a good job training, their students are passing, so they apply for and are granted examing authority (for two years) is a "certificate mill".

Training is as good as both parties (school/CFI and student) make it.

-mini

 

[SPilot]

I went to a part 141 school with license issue authority, and believe me: while it reduces the workload on the FSDO, it does not mean that the school is free to grant licenses as it so desire. FAA inspectors often sit in on the oral test without prior notice, and the instructors granted designated examining authority are thouroughly tested and in good standing with the FSDO. They are so to say just as much examiners as any other FAA inspector.

For license mills, I'd rather look out for FAA inspectors who focus more on being popular and getting lots of calls - business and money - than being tough on standards.

Only advantage for students at schools with examining authority is that if they fail the evaluation flight/checkride, it will not go on their FAA records, and they can try again many times.

From my personal experience with both FAA inspectors and the flight school's designated examiners, I'd say the inhouse testing is the most thourough, because they are so afraid of granting a license to someone who is likely to bust regs later, while the FAA inspectors are playing it more fair and focusing on the current safety issues. FAA examiners also have limited time, while inhouse tests can go on until the desired responses or standards are achieved.

 

[harrier]

Grad school leads to barely enough time to lurk! But once this %#@ paper is done, I'll fill the spaces!!

As you can see, my use of 'ticket factory' and 'certificate mill' lead to defensive responses. This is exactly why I don't want to use this terminology in my surveys. What I am looking for is attitudes towards the types of schools that get classified as 'ticket factories'. We all know what we mean by that, now how to define them in a short sentence without bias?

You've already given me some ideas, for example:
'Part 141 schools with license issuing authority test prospective student's more thoroughly than flight schools using FSDO and independant pilot examiners. Agree, Disagree, or No Opinion' (rough drafty question).

Simply by using the words 'ticket factory' it was assumed I was coming down on them. I am just the unbiased researcher see? This is why I need an unbiased description. Everyone knows what we mean when we use those terms, but what exactly is it (in a small phrase) that makes those schools different?

I have a question dealing with independant DE's and FSDO DE's, perhaps just adding the authorized testing instructors to those questions will cover my bases... By the way, the survey is actually focused on CFI training, not primary student, just for a bit of background.

 

[jim718181]

You talking about ATP?

 

[aussiefly]

one word --- gulfstream

 

[Tonala2k]

Just to make sure I understand, when you say "ticket factory" are you referring only to Part 141 schools with examining authority? Do you also mean part 61 schools who offer accelerated courses, but use FSDO and/or DPE's for examining? I'm part 61 and our chief pilot/CFI is a DPE ASEL Pvt, Comm, Instrument. The reason you're having such a tough time may be you haven't defined for yourself what you're exactly referring to. (Just a thought, not an accusation) I'm unfamiliar with the term. Help me out some and I'll try to help you out some.

 

[harrier]

Actually tonala2k, you are exactly right. I am not sure which type of school is what I want to address, or if I can manage to address both without too lengthy of a survey. When people say 'ticket factory' they generally mean any school that is known in the industry for handing out tickets. Originally, I started with the schools which focus on accelerated training, and/or training specifically for the airlines. Then, after speaking with several people, it seemed the bigger issue may be the part 141 schools or any school with an examiner on staff. The examiner on staff thing may be the uniting force.



My thesis is centered around CFI training and whether or not it is adequate. One big concern is CFI's trained at these schools get a checkride based on their knowledge and ability to fly, not their ability to teach. Several chief pilots have told me they simply stopped hiring CFI's from those schools. According to them, many of the interviewees interview horribly (when asked to teach steep turns, one interviewee said "I can't teach you on the ground, we have to be in a plane). When you have two applicants, one from a reputable school and one from a so called 'ticket factory', but otherwise the same...


My paper doesn't focus on so called 'ticket factories' but they are obviously an important concern for many which, if I don't address, I will have a big hole in the process of training quality CFI's.

 

[minitour]

One big concern is CFI's trained at these schools get a checkride based on their knowledge and ability to fly, not their ability to teach.

How do you propose to test "ability to teach" when most of the DPEs I've met probably have forgotten more about aviation than I'll ever learn?

I don't understand how someone "teaches" to someone with more knowledge than they have.

-mini

 

[FlyinFife]

How about "High Volume Training Centers"?

 

[harrier]

mini, can you tell if your teachers at school are good teachers when you don't yet know the information they are teaching you? Teaching is a recognizable skill. I should be able to ask you to teach me to make a hamburger, and at least get an idea of your ability to break down a concept and explain it. If you ask 10 people to explain something to you that you are very familiar with, you will get what I am saying. Teaching ability is apparent regardless of whether or not you know the subject matter. flyinfife, that's actually quite good! that may work out well. If I said "High Volume Training Centers" I believe most people would know the type of school I am referring to. Thank you!

 

[Tonala2k]

Harrier, you're on to something big! The CFI plague. "You can fly, but can you teach?" I've learned a lot from my chief CFI (been flying/teaching since WWII) What's crazy is that he'll still openly admit to his short comings that he's working on.

Minitour, I remember in high school I had several teachers who offered as extra credit assignments to go home and teach it to my parents and a sibling. It was tough teaching my parents because I couldn't get feed back as to whether they were learning, because they weren't. They knew it already. None the less, there was very little adaptation for teaching my little brother. And as harrier touched on, you're not proving knowledge, you're proving technique, and in doing so you may very well be teaching the examiner.

 

[minitour]

Minitour, I remember in high school I had several teachers who offered as extra credit assignments to go home and teach it to my parents and a sibling. It was tough teaching my parents because I couldn't get feed back as to whether they were learning, because they weren't. They knew it already. None the less, there was very little adaptation for teaching my little brother. And as harrier touched on, you're not proving knowledge, you're proving technique, and in doing so you may very well be teaching the examiner.

isn't the key point of teaching someone something when they learn it?

If the examiner (as your parents did) knows the info, they aren't learning anything.

JMHO

-mini

PS
by "high volume" do you mean lots of students or lots of dollars?

If a business has lots of students, does that make them a "high volume" center and therefore they aren't teaching CFIs how to teach by definition?

So we can deduce that successful businesses aren't really teaching CFI's how to teach...just to pass a checkride?

 

[Tonala2k]

So we can deduce that successful businesses aren't really teaching CFI's how to teach...just to pass a checkride?

harrier, I think this maybe the point your survey will either confirm or deny. In every industry there are businesses that grow beyond themselves at the cost of quality. Have we allowed flight schools to do the same? If that is the case, how can someone filter through to find a school that hasn't gotten too big for its britches. Obviously we can't base the answer on quantity of students or instructors alone. For some schools as few as fifty students may be too many, especially if they're working on a host of ratings and certificates.

He's my thought. I'll bet you'll find that the highest quality schools have the most number of full-time and long term instructors (Meaning those who'll be around for more than two years. i.e. Chief instructors/CFI, instructing management, and ground instructor) per student. Colleges and University would be a prime example of this.

 

[MauleSkinner]

How do you propose to test "ability to teach" when most of the DPEs I've met probably have forgotten more about aviation than I'll ever learn?

I don't understand how someone "teaches" to someone with more knowledge than they have.

-mini

I guess we need to clarify more terms than just "ticket factory"

What do you call the activity taking place during a CFI oral/checkride?

David

 

[minitour]

I guess we need to clarify more terms than just "ticket factory"

What do you call the activity taking place during a CFI oral/checkride?

David

"Demonstrating instructional knowledge"

-mini

 

[MauleSkinner]

-deleted-

 

[MauleSkinner]

"Demonstrating instructional knowledge"

-mini

I guess I would lean toward the PTS wording...

Examiner Responsibility
The examiner conducting the practical test is responsible for determining that the applicant meets acceptable standards of teaching ability, knowledge, and skill in the selected TASKs. The examiner makes this determination by accomplishing an Objective that is appropriate to each selected TASK, and includes an evaluation of the applicant's:
1. ability to apply the fundamentals of instructing;
2. knowledge of, and ability to teach, the subject matter, procedures, and maneuvers covered in the TASKs;
3. ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to the COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level1 while giving effective flight instruction; and
4. ability to analyze and correct common errors related to the procedures and maneuvers covered in the TASKs.

Additionally,

Satisfactory Performance
The practical test is passed if, in the judgment of the examiner, the applicant demonstrates satisfactory performance with regard to:
1. knowledge of the fundamentals of instructing;
2. knowledge of the technical subject areas;
3. knowledge of the flight instructor's responsibilities concerning the pilot certification process;
4. knowledge of the flight instructor's responsibilities concerning logbook entries and pilot certificate endorsements;
5. ability to demonstrate the procedures and maneuvers selected by the examiner to at least the COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level1 while giving effective instruction;
6. competence in teaching the procedures and maneuvers selected by the examiner;
7. competence in describing, recognizing, analyzing, and correcting common errors simulated by the examiner; and
8. knowledge of the development and effective use of a course of training, a syllabus, and a lesson plan.

Note that the items I emphasized in bold require teaching, and are listed separately from the knowlege of teaching items that I italicized.

I guess based on that, I don't have a problem with Tonala2k's terminology.

Fly safe!

David

 

[harrier]

That's one of those signs of a good instructor, Tonala2k, in my opinion. Willing to admit spots they need to work on! This project has turned into a passion for me. Which makes it harder. I understand now why a researcher should always maintain distance from the task at hand. I'm debating on pasting the link here to the survey when it's ready. Getting a large enough survey sample is going to be yet another tough part.