UAL wins temporary injunction against pilots

[Freight Dog]

Unfair? Why of course!

Bankruptcy laws are unfairly stacked against labor too. Only in America can a company go bankrupt, employees take massive paycuts and CEO's and management get massive bonuses at the same time.

If ALPA wants to change anything, it will have to resort to revolutionary measures. Yes, it means a wildcat strike. It means walking off the job, and telling the lawmakers, judges, the president of the USA, and everyone else - BITE ME! Address our issues, and we'll get back to work.

It will take drastic actions, and ALPA is unwilling to take them. Oh well... maybe they'll be able to get enough PAC money to overcome the management lobbyists.

 

[DX Rick]

It will take drastic actions, and ALPA is unwilling to take them. Oh well... maybe they'll be able to get enough PAC money to overcome the management lobbyists.

Good luck with that!
ALPA seems to be in managements hip pocket most of the time.

 

[JakeSnake]

"UAL said the union had engaged in a campaign to encourage members to adhere strictly to contract terms and refuse voluntary assignments as a way of pressuring management to open contract talks early. The current contract expires at the end of 2009."

Read that bolded text over and over again. Tell me how that is illegal?

Since when is adhering strictly to the contract, and refusing to fly VOLUNTARY assignments illegal?

We have been working under draconian contract conditions for more than 2000 days. At some point, ya stop doing anything voluntarily, and you don't give the company any extra help. Especially when they are kicking pilots to the curb...AGAIN. There is no more good will left and it just got even worse.

Big Red 1

""Wallach explained that although ALPA could not tell pilots , "here is your Flight Manual, FOM, and pilot agreement. Abide by it." Wallach thus plainly identified these instructions as code words for a work to rule or slowdown action."

The quote above is taken directly from the judges finding. She was even able to cite a previous courts finding that a "work by the book" suggestions by unions are code words and signals to engage in illegal job actions.

Unbelievable to me that a judge can cite a union encouraging some of the most regulated/controlled workers in this country to abide by written rules and contracts as evidence that the union is encouraging illegal activity!!!??? So I guess I can extrapolate that if a union were to encourage its members not to abide by contracts and regulations, then the union would be engaged in perfectly lawful and sanctioned conduct! HAHAHA.

I'd like the court to give me a code and signal interpretation book that will tell me what regulations/flight manual limits/contract provisions that I should not follow....

Here is the link to the courts decision... http://www.ualinfo.com/docs/Mem.Order.11-17-08.pdf

 

[ultrarunner]

"refusing to fly extra hours"? Since when were pilots EXPECTED to fly extra?

Since the company can fall back on the RLA's "Status Quo" provisions.

To use a VERY basic and simple example....

Say you have X number of drivers picking up X number of hrs in open-time, green-slips, whatever...and this goes on for a relatively significant period of time.

Then all of a sudden, those X number of pilots stop doing that....

Well, that's not the Status Quo. And the company can use the Status Quo provision of the RLA to enforce the "previous practice".

I know, I know...it's crazy...and this specific example at UAL underscores the need for someone to introduce legislation to flush the RLA down the toilet.

Why ALPA is not taking the lead on this I have no idea...oh wait, I can't believe I just said that...

Never mind....

 

[hockeypilot44]

Since the company can fall back on the RLA's "Status Quo" provisions.

To use a VERY basic and simple example....

Say you have X number of drivers picking up X number of hrs in open-time, green-slips, whatever...and this goes on for a relatively significant period of time.

Then all of a sudden, those X number of pilots stop doing that....

Well, that's not the Status Quo. And the company and use that provision of the RLA to enforce the "previous practice".

I know, I know...it's crazy...and this specific example at UAL underscores the need for someone to introduce legislation to flush the RLA down the toilet.

Why ALPA is not taking the lead on this I have no idea...oh wait, I can't believe I just said that...

Never mind....

Okay. I'll play devil's advocate. Let's look at Spirit. Block time was done the same way for years. All of the sudden they changed out time from door closing to when the airplane first moves on its own power. I think this is in the process of going to arbitration. I can almost guarantee you the company will win this situation also. Judges are extremely anti-labor these days. Until we conduct an illegal strike and bring credibility back to ourselves, we will continue getting raped.

 

[Kharma Police]

Just be glad McCain won't be in office in Jan.

"McCain, a Navy pilot shot down over Vietnam, accused pilots at UAL Corp.'s United Airlines of carrying out "work stoppages to satisfy their personal greed" and noted a sickout by pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines last year."

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/NEWS/09/14/airlines.delays.reut/index.html

 

[ultrarunner]

Okay. I'll play devil's advocate. Let's look at Spirit. Block time was done the same way for years. All of the sudden they changed out time from door closing to when the airplane first moves on its own power. I think this is in the process of going to arbitration. I can almost guarantee you the company will win this situation also. Judges are extremely anti-labor these days. Until we conduct an illegal strike and bring credibility back to ourselves, we will continue getting raped.

I hear what your saying. I will agree, the company will likely win on your example about. BUT, a "method" under which "pay" is calculated is far different from a Status Quo issue related to operating the schedule. This is there the RLA provisions come into play in my example, and the UAL case and essentially protects the company.

 

[ualdriver]

Since the company can fall back on the RLA's "Status Quo" provisions.

To use a VERY basic and simple example....

Say you have X number of drivers picking up X number of hrs in open-time, green-slips, whatever...and this goes on for a relatively significant period of time.

Then all of a sudden, those X number of pilots stop doing that....

Well, that's not the Status Quo. And the company can use the Status Quo provision of the RLA to enforce the "previous practice".

I know, I know...it's crazy...and this specific example at UAL underscores the need for someone to introduce legislation to flush the RLA down the toilet.

Why ALPA is not taking the lead on this I have no idea...oh wait, I can't believe I just said that...

Never mind....

I'm not sure why you rewrote what I just said in post 5 but........

You talk about ALPA needing to "take the lead" on dismantling the RLA. Do you think that would happen with a Bush (or a Republican) in the White House?

And I think you will see ALPA "take the lead" on making changes to the RLA, or at least trying to. There's a reason why ALPA was happy to see Obama get elected and some Republicans flushed from Congress. Having the opportunity to perhaps make some much needed changes to the RLA is one of many reasons. In fact, I think they have stated that (or written that) before.

 

[ultrarunner]

Ahh...sorry UALdriver, I should have read your post more carefully. I didn't mean to repeat it in my example.

Now, the chance of a modification to the RLA with a the Dem vs. Rep will remain to be seen. I am cautiously optimistic.

But make no mistake...unions are still going to have a rough road.

Think about it....today you've the the CEO's of the big 3 automakers begging for BILLIONS of dollars....at some point, someone is going to say..."ya know...if you release us from these "union" contracts" we'll be MUCH more competitive.

There is a reason the union guys are there too....

My money is not betting on the union over the next several years.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I hear what your saying. I will agree, the company will likely win on your example about. BUT, a "method" under which "pay" is calculated is far different from a Status Quo issue related to operating the schedule. This is there the RLA provisions come into play in my example, and the UAL case and essentially protects the company.

Status-quo is status-quo. We always lose in arbitration. Even when we win in arbitration, we lose somehow. I remember a few years ago, at Chautauqua they changed our health benefits to something less advantageous. It was against our contract. We went to arbitration and won. The companie's reaction was to raise everyone's premium and blame the premium increase on the pilots. The CEO even put out a memo that mentioned the unfortunate result of the arbitration. It is impossible for labor to win in arbitration until we get more labor-friendly judges or more labor-friendly management. You and I both know management will never change so let's hope the judge's do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If we want the RLA changed we need to put our money out there... ALPA-PAC gets about 14% of all ALPA pilots contributing... it is not that you need to contribute allot...just something.... In addition 14% is a very small minority... what that says to congressmen is that pilots really don't care.... that the status quo for pilots is just fine...

You can bet the corporati's are dumping lots of money into PAC's to ensure the RLA stays in their favor....

And where did these companies get their PAC money? Oh yeah, from the pilots who generate the company revenue and then they turn around and screw those very pilots....

 

[Poahi]

The carrier said that cost it about $8 million in lost revenue and $3.9 million in operating profit.

Great news!

Move over SWA, UAL has a nearly 50 percent operating profit! The hard times are behind us now. It took a team of lawyers to figure it out, but UAL is a profit machine! Just think, if pilots didn't pick up open time, ALPA would bring UAL billions..... Shucks, just canceling 1 percent of its flights would bring UAL back to profitability.

 

[ultrarunner]

That's the "new math".

 

[ualdriver]

Ahh...sorry UALdriver, I should have read your post more carefully. I didn't mean to repeat it in my example.

Now, the chance of a modification to the RLA with a the Dem vs. Rep will remain to be seen. I am cautiously optimistic.

But make no mistake...unions are still going to have a rough road.

Think about it....today you've the the CEO's of the big 3 automakers begging for BILLIONS of dollars....at some point, someone is going to say..."ya know...if you release us from these "union" contracts" we'll be MUCH more competitive.

There is a reason the union guys are there too....

My money is not betting on the union over the next several years.

I don't care about the repeat. I'm just in a bad mood today. Care to guess why?

I'm under no illusion that the RLA is going to go away because the Republicans are on the run for awhile. I just think, hope, and pray that it will be modified or modernized. After the results of this past election, there may be some hope. At the very least, we should get some favorable appointments!

 

[CFIT]

If we want the RLA changed we need to put our money out there... ALPA-PAC gets about 14% of all ALPA pilots contributing... it is not that you need to contribute allot...just something.... In addition 14% is a very small minority... what that says to congressmen is that pilots really don't care.... that the status quo for pilots is just fine...

You can bet the corporati's are dumping lots of money into PAC's to ensure the RLA stays in their favor....

And where did these companies get their PAC money? Oh yeah, from the pilots who generate the company revenue and then they turn around and screw those very pilots....

So you mean to say after ALPA gets around $55 Million dollars a year in dues, it still needs to have a "bake sale" to really be effective?

Maybe Prater is taking in more than the half a million a year everybody thought?

Quit running a union like a business and fight the RLA like a real union will make the difference!

 

[ualdriver]

If we want the RLA changed we need to put our money out there... ALPA-PAC gets about 14% of all ALPA pilots contributing... it is not that you need to contribute allot...just something.... In addition 14% is a very small minority... what that says to congressmen is that pilots really don't care.... that the status quo for pilots is just fine...

You can bet the corporati's are dumping lots of money into PAC's to ensure the RLA stays in their favor....

And where did these companies get their PAC money? Oh yeah, from the pilots who generate the company revenue and then they turn around and screw those very pilots....

It's amazing to me the rationale pilots use not to contribute to a PAC like the ALPA-PAC.

I mean, look at the ATA (Air Transport Association). It's a very influential body in Congress that exists to represent the interests of airlines (read: not necessarily pilots' interests, airline interests). The ATA has members whose CEO's are some of the most egotistical people on the planet. Some of these CEO's in the present and the past can't/couldn't even stand each other. Yet they are all smart enough to realize how valuable the influence the ATA has in Washington. Despite the MANY failings that the ATA has had in the past (crack open Air Transport World or Aviation Week and Space Technology for examples), all of these airlines and their respective CEO's are not DUMB ENOUGH to not be members. They all have agendas that need to be pushed forward, and you can bet the ATA members make sure the resources are in place to have their voice heard on any issue affecting THEIR airline industry.

U.S. airline pilots however..........

 

[CFIT]

It's amazing to me the rationale pilots use not to contribute to a PAC like the ALPA-PAC.

I mean, look at the ATA (Air Transport Association). It's a very influential body in Congress that exists to represent the interests of airlines (read: not necessarily pilots' interests, airline interests). The ATA has members whose CEO's are some of the most egotistical people on the planet. Some of these CEO's in the present and the past can't/couldn't even stand each other. Yet they are all smart enough to realize how valuable the influence the ATA has in Washington. Despite the MANY failings that the ATA has had in the past (crack open Air Transport World or Aviation Week and Space Technology for examples), all of these airlines and their respective CEO's are not DUMB ENOUGH to not be members. They all have agendas that need to be pushed forward, and you can bet the ATA members make sure the resources are in place to have their voice heard on any issue affecting THEIR airline industry.

U.S. airline pilots however..........

My point is that ALPA is run too much like a business and not a union with balls. ALPA is too afraid of getting fined, because they are a business.

The RLA has been the bane of Organized labor since it's inception, ALPA's made zero headway and admittedly can't (without a little more cash).

Every cent should be torwards fighting the RLA.

Until then ALPA is nothing more than a fun club with a glossy magazine.

 

[JimmyKool]

I just don't care anymore....fkkkk.....u.....domd....mf......tilton...u r sukn up the breath a squirl could be usn.....PLS.....DY.....SNNN...U....DMB....MF....FAT.....BTCH!

 

[JimmyKool]

D..Y..I...Tilton!

 

[Mr.B]

Unfair? Why of course!

Bankruptcy laws are unfairly stacked against labor too. Only in America can a company go bankrupt, employees take massive paycuts and CEO's and management get massive bonuses at the same time.

If ALPA wants to change anything, it will have to resort to revolutionary measures. Yes, it means a wildcat strike. It means walking off the job, and telling the lawmakers, judges, the president of the USA, and everyone else - BITE ME! Address our issues, and we'll get back to work.

It will take drastic actions, and ALPA is unwilling to take them. Oh well... maybe they'll be able to get enough PAC money to overcome the management lobbyists.

I wonder how much bonus money will be spread around.