UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[johnsonrod]

Rez,

You still have not answered my question! Who will pay for your idea to happen? Management will surely want concessions from us to make this happen! Who do you expect to pay for this, my fellow pilots and I at mainline?

Yogi

In an up year financially, you don't have to give as many concessions. And, were these airlines already on concessionary contracts? That means pay back time. Those UAL guys have taken it in the shorts since 9-11, and if the new UAL management wants an easy merger and not a USAIr style merger, they will agree to many of the demands.

 

[Skippy]

You're not, simple fact. Go through the process of getting hired at a major and then you can talk. Until then, you're not only not in the same league, you're not in the same ballpark.

i agree------ not even close-- the difference b/w legacy and regional is night and day


SKIPPY

i'd rather be furloughed at a legacy than working at a regional

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

In an up year financially, you don't have to give as many concessions. And, were these airlines already on concessionary contracts? That means pay back time. Those UAL guys have taken it in the shorts since 9-11, and if the new UAL management wants an easy merger and not a USAIr style merger, they will agree to many of the demands.

Skippy,

Unfortunately I have some experience at this, you will always spend negotiating capital to get what rez is looking for. That is in the form of giving something to get something. So lets say a great contract is agreed to at the negotiating table, now lastly we throw in this proposal. Do you actually think mngmt will just say, "sure, no problem!" or do you think they would ask to slide back on something agreed to. Be realistic...

Yogi

 

[johnsonrod]

Skippy,

Unfortunately I have some experience at this, you will always spend negotiating capital to get what rez is looking for. That is in the form of giving something to get something. So lets say a great contract is agreed to at the negotiating table, now lastly we throw in this proposal. Do you actually think mngmt will just say, "sure, no problem!" or do you think they would ask to slide back on something agreed to. Be realistic...

Yogi

The problem is, in a good year, they can't say "we can't afford it." That is the difference. If concessions were taken before during bad times, many of them will come back in better times. Good luck to you guys.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

The problem is, in a good year, they can't say "we can't afford it." That is the difference. If concessions were taken before during bad times, many of them will come back in better times. Good luck to you guys.

I understand what you are saying, but call your negotiating committee, they will be happy to explain to you, that is not how collective negotiating/bargaining works. Read some negotiating books, you can also find it out that way. Management will never hand over anything without somehow taking it from somewhere else. They come to negotiations with a bottom line. They will not exceed that, unless there is a credible strike threat or leverage. Both are very difficult scenarios based on the size of the new UAL.

Yogi

 

[79%N1]

I hate this industry.

 

[densoo]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

That is the best summary of what has gone down the last 10 years that I have read. Absolutely correct. Mainline gave it all away. There was a chance to put everyone under one seniority list at a certain point and it was rejected, with prejudice. What a stupid thing to do. Now look at it. No movement on the list, backwards pay and benefits, and gonna be roasted on the SLI. They've been the junior partner in every negotiation and if they act the same way during the merger, they'll get roasted by UAL.

 

[bluefin]

Management will pay for it... not the ML pilot groups.. the RJs are too expensive. The Outsourcing is not safe... the right govt can be persuasive....

Now answer my question... what of the ALPA RJ pilots who lose thier job due to no fault, choice or action of their own...? As ALPA members we can't just put guys on the street...

Recall.. I am advocating that the RJ pilots must apply and pass the interview on thier own accord...

I am on the street, I am(was) a dues paying member, I have applied at some alpa regionals and have gotten the, "I don't meet their qualifications" letter. If I get an interview and blow it, fine. But telling me I don't meet your qualifications. So if they end up on the street, "OH WELL" So much for alpa having my back.

 

[Plug]

Another thing to think about is the fact that ASA and XJT will be merging and will be about 4000 strong which will put them in group A in ALPA. With that status they will have a lot of power. I expect us (CAL/UAL) will maintain the CAL scope clause which will cause the ashes of the RJDC to rise like the Phoenix, please tell me I'm wrong JoeMerchant. Should this happen I would expect to see DAL and UAL to bail on ALPA and go independent and joining forces with USAPA and APA, an all legacy union. Heck, DAL is already rumbling about going independent. This takes the wind out of the sails for any DFR suit as we are no longer one union.

Joe, enjoy your hub turns out of ATL while I do my transcons and trans-oceanic flights with more days off than you, a better retirement plan, and making more at 5th year pay than an ASA Captain on 18 year pay. You have your flying via contract and as quickly as it came is as quickly as it will be taken away.

 

[General Lee]

I understand what you are saying, but call your negotiating committee, they will be happy to explain to you, that is not how collective negotiating/bargaining works. Read some negotiating books, you can also find it out that way. Management will never hand over anything without somehow taking it from somewhere else. They come to negotiations with a bottom line. They will not exceed that, unless there is a credible strike threat or leverage. Both are very difficult scenarios based on the size of the new UAL.

Yogi

Yogi, you are having a hard time understanding Johnsonrod. UAL and CAL MECs have their companies in a corner right now. Big bonuses are at stake, for management and the people putting this merger together. They want it clean, and they are WALL ST. That means less negotiating, and more taking back. That is also called leverage. You need to look it up in negotiating books it seems. When one side has LEVERAGE, that side usually gets a lot more of what they want. The time is now.


Bye Bye--General Lee