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UAL IAM Vote results

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Nov 26, 2001
UAL IAM has spoken. We'll see where it goes from here.

United's Chief Executive Officer Jack Creighton issued the following statement today. The statement came in response to an announcement made by the International Association of Machinists (IAM) District 141M on its rejection of the Presidential Emergency Board's (PEB) recommendations for a contract resolution, as well as its vote to authorize its 13,000 members to strike at 12:01 a.m. EST on Feb. 20.

Of those who voted, 68 percent rejected the PEB recommendations and 32 percent accepted them. Of those who voted, 86 percent said yes to a strike. Ninety percent of all eligible members voted.

Creighton says, "Although District 141M has rejected the PEB's recommendations, both parties have agreed to re-enter negotiations during which either an agreement will be reached or a new proposal advanced. If progress is made, and there is no reason to believe that it can't be, then we anticipate another vote will occur by mid-March, without interruption of operations.

"We regret that members of the IAM have rejected the PEB's recommendations. We still believe those recommendations provide a critical platform for the parties to reach resolution. We will continue to work with all our unions to aggressively implement a strategic recovery plan that meets the needs of passengers, preserves jobs and positions the company on the road to financial stability. We must reach consensus to continue on this path to recovery."

United will continue to provide more information to employees and customers as it is available. For the latest updates, customers can visit www.united.com. Employees can look to NewsReal and call 800-EYE-ON-UA (Unitel EYE-ON-UA or 847-952-1122) for updates.
Except that with EAL, the biggest problem was that of Frank Lorenzo skimming off anything of value that he thought he could. In this situation, you don't have that. That's a HUGE difference.

As I've pontificated before on this board, we live in interesting times. My solace is that CAL visited the Bankruptcy Court not once, but twice, and they seem to be doing quite well, thank you.

Great theatre! Stay tuned.
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All IAM?

UAL 78,

I agree with your self interest statement; a union divided will not stand (I know.....different type of union from the original quote).

I thought that the recent negotiations and subsequent PEB and vote were mechanic specific only and did not include baggage, CSR, etc....

My reference to Eastern was that the final days started with the mechanics unable to be pushed into a settlement and their general unrest. During my last few days I was amazed how negative the mechanics were and how badly they lambasted the PEB's recommendations. Basically, here is 37% and give it all back in concessions. Who knows though?

And although I've only been around 18 months it seems like upper management is skimming off the top at UAL too. Just look at the 18 cities given to UAExpress since I've been here.

Like you said, it makes for interesting viewing.

You possess the classic arrogant UAL pilot viewpoint in resenting the UAL Express carriers picking up cities. As a UAL pilot, you have in part yourself to blame for your predicament (I will also blame UAL mgmt as well) but yourself in that the reason being, you have priced youself out of the market with your exorbant contract, not to mention the whole negotiating process in the summer of 2000 whereby UAL's reputation took quite a hit with biz travellers, since if an airline is not reliable because pilots are using every loophole not to work, why travel on it.

You obviously could use a little education in economics: a gas guzzling, half empty 737 or 727, loses UAL plenty of $$$. But a CRJ can step right in, pick up the slack, keep the UAL presence in many marginal markets, and more importantly get people in the UAL system so that they can xfer to your 777 at a hub. You also fail to realize the hub raiding potential of RJs - routes like IAD-JAX or IAD-SAV were never flown with props and are poaching pax from Delta territory!

Furthurmore, look at Frontier - thriving out of Denver - yet you guys seems to be struggling there. Your company is so hamstrung with unions, UAL is simply unable to react to the changing business environment around it. Companies like JetBlue, Southwest, Frontier, which have loyal employees + growing reputations, will be eating you guys alive. As a UAL Express pilot based in IAD, it scares me to see JetBlue in there doing IAD-Florida routes, because they do it so much better and so much cheaper than you.

Just keep you fingers crossed UAL stays around long enough so that you can collect your $10 million retirement plan. The way things are going, and with attitudes like yours, you guys won't!


United Express pilot.
Is your post a classic case of, "oh, I wish I'd pondered this a bit before I hit the send button"? I know I've had those moments. While your reply is filled with some undeniable truths, there is a bunch of juvenile rhetoric that really does nothing to foster meaningful debate or any sort of mutual respect between pilot groups.

While there is plenty of blame to go around at UAL for the current mess, don't worry- it's OUR mess and it's OUR job to clean it up. As far as the giving away of flying to express carriers, I think you're a little sensitive to Slug's post (I'm assuming you're not talking to me). As far as I'm concerned, servicing markets should be left to economic Darwinism. If SWA or JetBlue eats somebody's lunch, the passee better start protecting their sandwiches or they deserve what they get. If UAL negotiates a service contract that enables your company to buy a plane and give you a job, hopefully it's a win-win for everybody. If it's not, shame on the loser- adapt or die.

I'm not seeing the reason for the venom.

PS, sorry, my retirement's only $8 million.
Here we go again...

For the record, I used to work for a UA Express carrier. I also worked for United--until the furlough, and I'll soon work for SWA.

I've heard all the arguments about how rotten those UAL S.O.B.s are and how if it weren't for greedy UAL pilots, the express pilots would be flying RJs all over the place and have the world by the tail. However, I'd like to throw in my two cents. The relationship between any major carrier and the feeder needs to have some sense of balance. I agree the RJ provides a good feed and customers prefer them vice a Brasilia or Jetstream, but customers have their limits. For example, I have spoken with many customers who absolutely hate them on any flight over about 1.5 hours. Also, I sat next to a Premier Exec. flyer who was livid about the RJ service between LAX and PHX effective November 1, 2001. This individual travels extensively between LA and Phoenix and according to his rant, his subsequent bookings to PHX will be on HP or WN... not UA. Now maybe he switched carriers, maybe he didn't... time will tell. Personally, I don't think the guy would've been happy anywhere.

If you think United offers crummy service, then you may be right, but think about the service offered by Express carriers. Again, I have worked at both, and I can honestly say that UA Express is not always perfect. Neither is UAL. Ask yourself what you can do to improve the service at your company (I'm assuming ACA?) Focus your energy in keeping these customers instead of this constant p*ssing and moaning about what a bunch of "arrogant" d*ck heads the UAL pilots are. Wasted energy.

Now about the summer of 2000: what is wrong with working your schedule and not picking up time on your day off? 'Nuff said!

Southwest, JetBlue, and Frontier are indeed doing a great job. I certainly hope SWA continues to grow... I have a new job riding on their growth. But for every person who loves those companies, there is somebody who doesn't! I spoke with a guy yesterday who will not fly SWA in a million years. This guy hates the lines, no seat assignment, and inability to use miles for travel to international destinations. Meanwhile, his colleauge LOVES SWA!! Oh well, different strokes, right?

Finally, don't lose sight of the fact that UA Express provides a service for United Airlines. I used to work with "lifers" at my former UA Express job who would say things like, "I hope UA goes out of business and those guys get what commin' to them! Ha!!" I always thought to myself, "Gee, that's smart... now where would that leave you, Captain Butthead? On the street with those UAL jerks, maybe?"


The blame game

It was stated earlier that there is enough blame to go around UAL and then some. I am really getting tired of hearing its the pilots fault, the mechanics are going to ruin the compnay, management sucks, etc, etc, etc.....

Of course UAL is being tested like it has never been tested before in its history. But like so many carriers before UAL it will overcome the troubles of all parties involved. Yes, major changes in attitude must be adopted before we can get the company to run like its suppose to.

The recent events over the last 3 years have all been devasting to United employees and its customers, And it is going to be a major hurdle for jack Creighton to turn things around. But, I can say this might be the guy to do it. He is almost 70, and guys like this could care less about the money and do it more for there ego. He is a great listener, and will do what it takes to make sure that United does not keep driving into the deep hole it has created for itself. He is the kind of leader that the company needs during this turbulent time. Hopefully, he will get things stabilized and maybe, just maybe this company will look attractive to pilots pursuing a great global airline career.

As far as companies like Jetblue and Southwest, I think there will come a day when they will not sit idle and watch there counterparts flying the same equipment with better pay and benefits. I know I sound like some greedy pilot. But ALPA has worked hard over the years to keep our profession in line with most of the respected professions of the world. All pilots have worked hard at building there flight experience. Either serving our nations armed forces, or going it the civilian route. Don't you think after many, many years of paying your dues you should have a great carrier to work for. Again, this is debatable, and every pilot has a different take on the greatest pilot job. It is a matter of finding the perfect match between company and pilot. I have found that at United.

IAM 141M IMHO will come to some settlment with UAL, it is a matter of ironing out some unclear issues they have questions on other than pay. They aren't trying to shoot themselves out of a career, but have legitimate concern for there career welfare. Just like any of us have in our careers. Hopefully things will get better soon, it is going to be a very interesting time in UAL history. hopefully this is not the final chapter.
As a another former UAX guy and current furloughee, I guess I'll take my dump in a box and stamp it gaurunteed....I've got time!;) I feel the same way about UAX pre 9/11 as I do now. We signed a contract that allowed them do the flying they do with "United Express" on the side of the airplane. Pre 9/11, that meant a lot of cities going to Express, and Rono saying that mainline was going to shrink by 1/2% in 2002 while Express grew about 5%. Because of where I was based, that meant at least another year on reserve, and decisions on whether or not to transition to a bigger a/c towards the end of the year or not. While that wasn't what I envisioned happening when I got on at UAL, I wasn't mad about it because at that time it was all within the bounds of the contract we signed. Post 9/11, the company has abrogated that contract big time, and thus I have a big problem with them and indirectly UAX's expansion. LET ME REPEAT THAT BEFORE SOMEONE JUMPS ON ME: I only have an indirect problem with UAX expansion. I don't think less of them, and if any of them wants a jumpseat ride on my living room couch, I wouldn't lecture them!

I do wonder, however, where this is all going in the future. Something is brewing in this situation and methinks it will be ugly. The company has stopped giving cities to express for the time being. Sure there are lots of rumours of future UAX routes out there, but those rumours haven't come to fruition yet and I think the 127 added flights in April are all mainline. Two of the three UAX carriers aren't hiring, one has pilots on furlough, and if read the other boards correctly the one that is hiring just cancelled some classes. Skywest is talking about flying for UsAirways. Who's jets will they be using for that? ACA is talking about opening a charter division, and according to friends their it's because they expect less UAX flying. Air Wis will almost certainly get the shaft because our management wants to punish their pilots for their contract, and aircraft financing. No matter how you hide the paper trail, Air Wis is basically a UAL shell company and we finance their jets. With UAL in a cash crunch and the WTO up in arms about the loan Bombardier made for the deal, who do you think management will shift flying away from. There are also a couple of news articles out there where analysts say that UAL management knows it will have to concede on SJ flying in any concession deal. Maybe that's why they were so willing to give ACA a good deal on their cost-plus payouts this year. There are even rumours out there that Creighton said 70 seaters are on the table to bring the company into compliance with the contract, although that will be interesting because no 70 seat SJ meets the contractual definition of a "small gauge narrowbody." Unlike AMR, AAA, and DAL, our MEC has not approached any of our Express carriers with a jets for jobs proposal so far. While these are all little signs and it's like reading tea leaves, it seems that our union is holding the line on the scope language and the company is preparing itself for the compliance possibilities. I just hope that whatever comes out of this, that the pilots of UAL and UAX aren't at each other's throats like some of the other carriers are right now.
Thanks Rightbettor, Boz and Marko for dismantling the notions put forth by the former poster about UAL pilots. I think your posts speak for themselves. Rightbettor, best of luck in your future. It's posts like all of yours that give me confidence in the airline business' future. For those aspiring to a major someday, read and reflect.

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