UAL got pensions get slashed by dumb judge

[#1 Windmilling]

Judge Reject UAL Pilot TA!

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Judge Rejects Deal with United's Pilots

Friday January 7, 11:53 am ET



CHICAGO (Reuters) - A federal bankruptcy judge on Friday rejected an agreement between UAL Corp. (OTC BB:UALAQ.OB - News) and its pilots union that would have let bankrupt United Airlines cut the pilots' pay by 14 percent and terminate their pension plans.

Judge Eugene Wedoff said the agreement would have inappropriately tilted the bankruptcy process.

The judge was expected to hear arguments later on Friday on whether the airline should be allowed to terminate its collective bargaining agreements with its unions.


The above is from earlier this year....

So let's see, this judge initially rejected UAL's request to cut the pilots' TA back in January because it would have "tilted" the bakruptcy process. Yet now, a mere 4 months later, the same judge allows UAL to shed ALL of its pension liabilities! How much bribe money did it take? I think tomorrow's ruling is a done deal. The contracts will be thrown out without question. Then what? This is bad for everyone involved. Now every airline with pension obligations will need to declare bankruptcy in order to free themselves of the debt. Sheesh...

I have no faith that Congress will act quickly enough on the legislation regarding pension liability and therefore see every legacy carrier eventually declaring bankruptcy. I hope I am wrong. Look out LCCs if this happens, as the big guys will become MUCH more competitive and will move to flood the LCC markets. Time to find another business....

-#1W

 

[doh]

Flyguppy,

The judge is trying to run that one up the flagpole and desperately praying they salute. If they do, a precedent exists for management to violate the status quo and labor must still maintain it. Some one, IAM, AFA, or ALPA, must take action now.

 

[BoeingBoy]

This one is gonna be exciting...

Let me get this straight, UAL is using bankruptcy law to abrogate employee contracts and work rules, but also wants the judge to force the employees to go to work for whatever pay/benefits the company says it can afford?

Paging Mr. Lincoln....and bring that 13th amendment with you...yes here it is...the Emancipation Proclamation...

I'll be amazed if the workers at UAL can be forced to work for whatever the company wants...

UAL's new service...Coffee, Cotton, Tobacco, and a few lashes for the cabin crew!

-Excuse me Stewardess, what's your name?
-Kunta Kinte!
-It's Stewardess, dang you! Learn your name!
-Kunta....Kinte...

 

[DiverDriver]

And where are you getting that the RLA "got tossed out the window"?

In fact, the judge ruled that the PBGC/UAL agreement did not violate any CBA's. Therefore, the RLA, and the CBA's are still in force, making a strike illegal.

Whether or not the AFA, IAM, or AMFA tries any job action remains to be seen. But, I'll bet you a dollar that any actions will be ruled illegal by this judge, and any union supporting such action will face severe fines/penalties.

JMO.

It may be ruled illegal by this judge but he has been overturned on appeal in regards to lessors reposessing their aircraft so he is not the end-all be-all. We shall see.

 

[xanderman]

This industry is in desperate need of real reform, and needs something like a day or two shutdown of the air transportation system by disgruntled unionized labor to force it to a head. Otherwise, it will be just more of the same.

I could not have said it any better!!!!

 

[Toecutter]

I second that. It's time to open up your windows, stick your head out and scream, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!

I think I'll rent that movie.

 

[FDJ2]

In fact, the judge ruled that the PBGC/UAL agreement did not violate any CBA's. Therefore, the RLA, and the CBA's are still in force, making a strike illegal.

Really, the pensions were not part of the collective bargaining agreement of each union? How interesting. Are you sure of that?

Whether or not the AFA, IAM, or AMFA tries any job action remains to be seen. But, I'll bet you a dollar that any actions will be ruled illegal by this judge, and any union supporting such action will face severe fines/penalties.

JMO.

That's possible, but it's also possible that once a collective bargaining agreement which was negotiated in accordance with the RLA is breached outside of the procedures contained in the RLA, then the RLA does not apply. FYI, not all CBAs are governed by the RLA, and this one may no loonger be governed by those procedures.

Time will tell, there are certainly some issues here. Not quite so cut and dry.

 

[Corona]

This is bad for everyone involved. Now every airline with pension obligations will need to declare bankruptcy in order to free themselves of the debt. Sheesh...-#1W

This is bad for everyone not involved as well. Between this and the Alaska fiasco, there's gonna be one huge ball of crap rolling towards us at the bottom of the hill.

Good luck, guys/gals,

C

 

[Stearmandriver]

I imagine that you would also like to commit acts of violence on physicians when they are forced to amputate to save a life?

If it's the physician's fault that my limb needs to be amputated in the first place, you bet your *ss. First scalpel I can get my hand (whichever one's left) on is getting stuck somewhere very unpleasant. Of course, I'd wait 'till he was done saving my life... but I don't think there's any point in the UA employees waiting for their mgmt to do that.

This f*ckin' sucks. My dad's a mx supervisor at UA; he's given them 35 years of his life, working on everything from DC-6's through 777's. And now he has next to nothing from them. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good thing he got a successful business started just before the sh*t hit the fan there. Obviously most others aren't that lucky.

F*ck all the arilines, I say. In a sick way, I'm almost gonna enjoy the final demise of this industry. At least it'll force us to quit wasting our lives on it, and find a real career!

 

[fastbird]

PBGC caps pension payouts at $45,600 per person.

And...how much is Tilton, Carty, et al still going to get in there golden parachute plans?

 

[bluefin]

For all employee's except pilots. The pilots would get half of that because we are taking early retirement at 60, not mandatory retirement as stated in the FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATIONS. That is according to the pbgc. So we are not entitled to get full compensation. Why do you think Alpa was pushing the age 60 rule?.

 

[ThisistheDream]

what benefit or total payments would a 25 year veterean CA at UAL get starting in a year when they retire. 45K a year will be there pbc total payments?????

 

[VampyreGTX]

what benefit or total payments would a 25 year veterean CA at UAL get starting in a year when they retire. 45K a year will be there pbc total payments?????

Nope, since they retire at 60, the PBGC has a penalty that would result in a payout of 28.8K or right around there.

 

[CapnVegetto]

So, it's tomorrow......is the strike on? What's the latest word?

 

[Mugs]

For what it is worth, I have yet to talk to an F/A out on the line that is ready to go on strike. Not that they aren't out there of course. Some are ready to quit, but they want to do so on their own terms at their time of choosing. One 26 year F/A told me yesterday that her UAL health benefits were still much better than what her husband's employer offers, so they want to be able to keep them. I think it is pretty hard to strike knowing that the outcome will probably be losing the job for sure. So push is coming to shove, and we will just have to see what happens. If the majority of F/As, mechanics, baggage handlers and CSRs all have something better lined up I suppose they might get the torch out. If not, then we are just listening to very justifiable venting.

 

[skykid]

Some are ready to quit, but they want to do so on their own terms at their time of choosing.

Absolutely! If you don't like your job, quit. I don't believe the members of these unions lack intelligence or the ability to think logically. I have to believe most understand that the little picture is - no exit financing with pensions, and the big picture is - do you really think any legacy is going to compete with companies that don't have defined pensions in 2005 and beyond? The unions involved are going to lose either way, and they know it.

 

[WhiteCloud]

How much longer can this industry support itself on the backs of their employees?

In the case of UAL .......only until tomorrow.

 

[ThisistheDream]

so if there is a PBGC penalty if you retire at age 60 like we are forced to do how many years do you wait until you get the full amount of benefit 5 yrs? at age 65? Does the benefit go up a little bit each year after 60 until you meet the maximum benefit?

 

[100LL... Again!]

Your lame analogy works if:

• The physician knew about the possibility of gangrene setting in.

• The doctor manipulated the conditions by ommision and commision to allow the infection to flourish.

• Once the infection became obvious, the doctor ignored it and sold the antibiotics so he would have enough money to study merging with another quack, whose office is also full of infected patients.

• As death draws near, the Doctor wants to perform the amputation you speak of.

Corporate officers have some basic duties and responsiblities to the shareholders and employees. You're a conservative 100LL, what happened to personal responsibility? Stick to the political threads, or at least bring your thinking cap.

I think you need to read more carefully. The original poster intimated that the judge should be on the receiving end of a violent act. I responded by suggesting that the current situation is possibly beyond hope, and that the judge was doing the necessary 'amputation' if you will. Let's dissect how you completely failed to understand this:

The physician knew about the possibility of gangrene setting in.

I think you are talking about management here. The abnkruptcy judge cannot make fiduciary decisions regarding UAL's investments and other business decisions.

The doctor manipulated the conditions by ommision and commision to allow the infection to flourish.

Again, this is what management has done, not the bankruptcy judge.

Once the infection became obvious, the doctor ignored it and sold the antibiotics so he would have enough money to study merging with another quack, whose office is also full of infected patients.

Again, management.

As death draws near, the Doctor wants to perform the amputation you speak of.

Here, the poor parent (UAL management) brings their abused and neglected kid (the company and employees) to the doctor (the judge) to request this procedure.

Regardless of which way you want the decision to go, you must first realize that the judge did not bring this situation about. Management did.

After you realize that, you will realize that you did not read my post clearly, but instead drew assumptions after glancing at it.

Alternately, you are perhaps too intellectually challenged to understand the distinction between what management did and what the judge was presented.

Read more carefully next time, and spare yourself thius type of embarassment.

 

[Mugs]

Max PBGC benefit (cap) for retirement in 2004:

$44, 386 / year for age 65 retirement

$28,851 / year for age 60 retirement

$19,974 / year for age 55 retirement