Ual / Erp
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UALX727
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It's a P.O.S.........
I have looked at some of the details and it fails to address many of the outstanding grievances the company has violated along the way. Our Master Chairman initially stated that these issues needed to be resolved before any deal could be reached......Regional flying by the UAX carriers, furloughed pilots, minimum # of pilots on the active seniority list......What happened??????? It doesn't appear any of this stuff will be resolved according to our contract. Also it was stated that for the pilots to deal, all employee groups would need to participate for an agreement to be reached. WTFO?????????
Seems like all it offers to the pilots are stock options in exchange for a 10% pay cut and having the contract extended a few years.
I think this thing will not even get approved by the UAL MEC and therefore won't even make it out for a vote amoung the pilots. Even if it did it would get shot down hard. I have lost all confidence in the words of our Master Chairman at this point, we need to get someone else in there.
I have looked at some of the details and it fails to address many of the outstanding grievances the company has violated along the way. Our Master Chairman initially stated that these issues needed to be resolved before any deal could be reached......Regional flying by the UAX carriers, furloughed pilots, minimum # of pilots on the active seniority list......What happened??????? It doesn't appear any of this stuff will be resolved according to our contract. Also it was stated that for the pilots to deal, all employee groups would need to participate for an agreement to be reached. WTFO?????????
Seems like all it offers to the pilots are stock options in exchange for a 10% pay cut and having the contract extended a few years.
I think this thing will not even get approved by the UAL MEC and therefore won't even make it out for a vote amoung the pilots. Even if it did it would get shot down hard. I have lost all confidence in the words of our Master Chairman at this point, we need to get someone else in there.
furlough-boy
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It addresses all of the issues. ALPA agrees to withdraw the greviences, and the company agrees to take no further "force majeure" actions. The issues of RJ's and minimum fleet size are redefined and new goals set. The pilots take a 10% paycut, but the A plan and disability benifits are protected at "book rates", plus there's a defined end of the program with significant payrate increases starting in Sept '03. They even throw us furloughed guys a bone with pay longevity for our time on the street. Certainly not a perfect deal, but if the other groups go along, then it might be a good push to move UAL in the right direction.
What's the deal with the US Airways code-share comments at the end?
What's the deal with the US Airways code-share comments at the end?
dog
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furlough-boy said:
Its called giving them a blank check to do with as they wish. "The parties will work to develop a mutually-acceptable
agreement concerning a US Airways code sharing program promptly as practicable following the conclusion of this Term Sheet."
Calling this ERP a POS is being polite. Taking paycut, lose jobs, stay on street longer , buy stock at a yet to be determined price(another bone for the new guys) great deal
F/O
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Not US Air again!!
Yes, it's interesting how they slipped in the part about US Air right at the end, especially with such open ended language. I see a serious job protection issue here as a result of any US Air code-share.
Now we have US Air with jobs for RJs AND we have more UAX RJs as a result of this deal. Instead of just shipping off mainline flying to UAX, management will now be shipping it off to US Air. This could make it years before UAL mainline springs back to its pre 9/11 size, if ever.
This is obviously a huge punch in the gut the poor furloughed slobs.....and of course for that many more for RJ pilots who will now never make it to the majors....
Yes, it's interesting how they slipped in the part about US Air right at the end, especially with such open ended language. I see a serious job protection issue here as a result of any US Air code-share.
Now we have US Air with jobs for RJs AND we have more UAX RJs as a result of this deal. Instead of just shipping off mainline flying to UAX, management will now be shipping it off to US Air. This could make it years before UAL mainline springs back to its pre 9/11 size, if ever.
This is obviously a huge punch in the gut the poor furloughed slobs.....and of course for that many more for RJ pilots who will now never make it to the majors....
furloughed
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Not gonna Pass
This deal won't even make it past the MEC. If it does it will be voted down overwhelmingly. Has anyone been over at the UAL ALPA board? Hundreds of responses and not one is positive twords this agreement. The company will retaliate by furloughing more pilots if it is voted down, but at this point who cares because if this deal passes the furloughees will never be coming back anyway. I mean if this deal passes the minimum fleet number at UAL is allowed to shrink while RJ growth is allowed up to 243 by 2004 and a proposed domestic code share with USAirways (whose pilots and employees will make considerably less when their concessions are given). Guess where UAL growth will go? Thats right RJs and USAir. This deal is DOA.
This deal won't even make it past the MEC. If it does it will be voted down overwhelmingly. Has anyone been over at the UAL ALPA board? Hundreds of responses and not one is positive twords this agreement. The company will retaliate by furloughing more pilots if it is voted down, but at this point who cares because if this deal passes the furloughees will never be coming back anyway. I mean if this deal passes the minimum fleet number at UAL is allowed to shrink while RJ growth is allowed up to 243 by 2004 and a proposed domestic code share with USAirways (whose pilots and employees will make considerably less when their concessions are given). Guess where UAL growth will go? Thats right RJs and USAir. This deal is DOA.
Piece of shizzle, bizzle!
As a furloughee I sometimes wonder why I don't read the ALPA website and I don't follow UAL stock. Now I'm reminded why. This recovery plan is garbage, Is the company or the union ever going to put anything out that brings a smile to my face. It's not hard to make me smile, but it's been a long time since the word UAL has brought a smile to my face. God help us all.
As a furloughee I sometimes wonder why I don't read the ALPA website and I don't follow UAL stock. Now I'm reminded why. This recovery plan is garbage, Is the company or the union ever going to put anything out that brings a smile to my face. It's not hard to make me smile, but it's been a long time since the word UAL has brought a smile to my face. God help us all.
Sleepyhead
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It is a sad commentary on our union leadership that they even negioated a proposal like this. I think they are out of touch with the members at large.
furlough-boy
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out of touch?
Out of touch?
In my humble opinion, it's a majority of the line pilots that are out of touch with reality. The MEC just endorced the ERP. The MEC has access to the company's financial records. They have consulted with the best financial and legal advisors money can buy and they think that it's in the pilot groups best interests in approve the plan.
The RJ issue is something that ALPA needs to develop a plan to deal with. We can restrict UAL from having RJ's up until the day all the other majors with them put us out of business.
The economic reality of the industry has changed, and the pilots (as they always have) will have to lead.
The US Airways statement just says that they will try to develop a plan that is acceptable to the pilot group. Doesn't say they have to. The NWA/CO codeshare has been benifitual to both companies, so a correctly structured agreement could benifit the UAL pilot group.
Just my opinion
Out of touch?
In my humble opinion, it's a majority of the line pilots that are out of touch with reality. The MEC just endorced the ERP. The MEC has access to the company's financial records. They have consulted with the best financial and legal advisors money can buy and they think that it's in the pilot groups best interests in approve the plan.
The RJ issue is something that ALPA needs to develop a plan to deal with. We can restrict UAL from having RJ's up until the day all the other majors with them put us out of business.
The economic reality of the industry has changed, and the pilots (as they always have) will have to lead.
The US Airways statement just says that they will try to develop a plan that is acceptable to the pilot group. Doesn't say they have to. The NWA/CO codeshare has been benifitual to both companies, so a correctly structured agreement could benifit the UAL pilot group.
Just my opinion
Hey gang,
Being furloughed from another carrier that seems to be trying to fly RJ's everywhere, that United deal sucks. Lets see give up 10% pay shrink mainline (which means a bigger paycut or at least quality of life) almost unlimited growth of RJ's, stop all possible greviances that could help the cause, and
SELL THE FURLOUGH GANG DOWN THE RIVER WITH NO END IN SIGHT!
That sure does not sound to good to me for some stock options that are not worth anything now.
I hope your pilots don't vote for that, and when it comes to concessions, how about giving something on mgmt side.
Being furloughed from another carrier that seems to be trying to fly RJ's everywhere, that United deal sucks. Lets see give up 10% pay shrink mainline (which means a bigger paycut or at least quality of life) almost unlimited growth of RJ's, stop all possible greviances that could help the cause, and
SELL THE FURLOUGH GANG DOWN THE RIVER WITH NO END IN SIGHT!
That sure does not sound to good to me for some stock options that are not worth anything now.
I hope your pilots don't vote for that, and when it comes to concessions, how about giving something on mgmt side.
spinup
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Is anyone as dissapointed in the ERP passing the MEC in its present form as I am. I for one am all for stimulating the company into recovery, but why are we outsourcing all of this flying to UAX and US Airways? WHAT GOOD IS LONGEVITY PAY IF IT TAKES MORE THAN 7 YEARS TO GET RECALLED!!!!??? I for one am concerned this Tenative Agreement will extended our departure from the ranks, significantly.
Again, U30-2 was a good answer to all this.
Again, U30-2 was a good answer to all this.
F/O
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Personally, even if I was still working, I couldn't care less about the 10%. If the MEC financial people think 10% will work, it's a small price to pay to help save the airline and our careers.
However, the prospect of outsourcing our flying to UAX and US Air is a problem. The implications are huge. It means mainline doesn't grow and that means 844 guys out on the street for an indefinite (read that many years) period of time.
UAL wants RJs?? Fine, but we buy 'em and we fly 'em ala U30-2. That should have been part of this deal to begin with. The idea of giving up our flying to US Air (who will be flying their own RJs here shortly) makes me cringe.
2 points to consider:
(1) The deal calls for a minimum year end fleet of 534 in 2002; 534 in 2003; 547 in 2004; and 559 in 2005 and thereafter. According to the latest issue of the Crystal Ball, they HAD been planning 567, 567, 580 at the end of 2002, 2003, and 2004, respectively. The implication is clear: they'd just looooove to park some planes now and even more after they get all the RJs on line. Less metal on the ramp (significantly less according to the numbers) means more time on unpaid vacation for the "844".
(2) Take a look at the final clause in the term sheet: "The Company may terminate the Recovery Program if the Association and the Company have not concluded a mutually acceptable agreement concerning a US Airways code sharing program prior to pilot ratification of the Recovery Program Term Sheet."
This tells me that, for whatever reason, if they don't get the US Air codeshare it is not worth it to the company to go through with the ERP. Why would that be? Why would the company give up what appears to be a sweetheart deal as it is just because it's not wrapped up with a US Air codeshare?? I don't know, but I'm formulating a few conspiracy theories.
It's a lot to digest. Anybody know if us poor forsaken furloughed slobs get to vote on this thing?
However, the prospect of outsourcing our flying to UAX and US Air is a problem. The implications are huge. It means mainline doesn't grow and that means 844 guys out on the street for an indefinite (read that many years) period of time.
UAL wants RJs?? Fine, but we buy 'em and we fly 'em ala U30-2. That should have been part of this deal to begin with. The idea of giving up our flying to US Air (who will be flying their own RJs here shortly) makes me cringe.
2 points to consider:
(1) The deal calls for a minimum year end fleet of 534 in 2002; 534 in 2003; 547 in 2004; and 559 in 2005 and thereafter. According to the latest issue of the Crystal Ball, they HAD been planning 567, 567, 580 at the end of 2002, 2003, and 2004, respectively. The implication is clear: they'd just looooove to park some planes now and even more after they get all the RJs on line. Less metal on the ramp (significantly less according to the numbers) means more time on unpaid vacation for the "844".
(2) Take a look at the final clause in the term sheet: "The Company may terminate the Recovery Program if the Association and the Company have not concluded a mutually acceptable agreement concerning a US Airways code sharing program prior to pilot ratification of the Recovery Program Term Sheet."
This tells me that, for whatever reason, if they don't get the US Air codeshare it is not worth it to the company to go through with the ERP. Why would that be? Why would the company give up what appears to be a sweetheart deal as it is just because it's not wrapped up with a US Air codeshare?? I don't know, but I'm formulating a few conspiracy theories.
It's a lot to digest. Anybody know if us poor forsaken furloughed slobs get to vote on this thing?
HvyjetFO
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It will get shot down
My understanding is that the furloughees will not get to vote on it.
This ERP is a disaster. Let's break it down.
Pilots get a 10% paycut. That's OK with almost everyone I've talked to. It saves the company some $$$. No prob there.
Junior pilots get hit over the head with another 5% in 2005 if they did not participate in the full 69 months of the ESOP. As muc has it stinks, most are still ok with this.
In return for the sacrifice, this is what we "gain".
More RJs...around 180 of them. DEALBREAKER.
Less mainline fleet guarantee size. DEALBREAKER
Furloughees left on the street, but get longevity... MAJOR DEALBREAKER
USAIR codeshare....DEALBREAKER
Elimination of floater reserve...YGBSM
Enhanced aggressive pickup...again, YGBSM
"Promise" of end of Force Majeure actions. IMHO, if the company felt the need to do it the first time, they will do it again. What makes thic piece of paper any different that C2K?
New minimum level of active pilots...2003 snapshot...once again, we're lowering the bar.
So, in essence this piece of trash guarantees RJ growth and mainline shrinkage. If it passes, the furloughees will spend more time on the street, and it is MHO that all the outsourcing can only lead to further furloughs in the long run.
The threat of 300 more furloughs looms if the ERP doesn't pass. Anyone seen the lastest crystal ball? Roichek states "the new schedule has put a strain on the system. We don't have the excess of pilots that we had earlier in the year". This is not to say that the company wouldn't furlough if it gets shot down, as I believe they would in retaliation. However, I would rather be furloughed than see our furloughees left hung out to dry and see what is left of the company if this thing passes.
I VOTE NO!
Hvy
My understanding is that the furloughees will not get to vote on it.
This ERP is a disaster. Let's break it down.
Pilots get a 10% paycut. That's OK with almost everyone I've talked to. It saves the company some $$$. No prob there.
Junior pilots get hit over the head with another 5% in 2005 if they did not participate in the full 69 months of the ESOP. As muc has it stinks, most are still ok with this.
In return for the sacrifice, this is what we "gain".
More RJs...around 180 of them. DEALBREAKER.
Less mainline fleet guarantee size. DEALBREAKER
Furloughees left on the street, but get longevity... MAJOR DEALBREAKER
USAIR codeshare....DEALBREAKER
Elimination of floater reserve...YGBSM
Enhanced aggressive pickup...again, YGBSM
"Promise" of end of Force Majeure actions. IMHO, if the company felt the need to do it the first time, they will do it again. What makes thic piece of paper any different that C2K?
New minimum level of active pilots...2003 snapshot...once again, we're lowering the bar.
So, in essence this piece of trash guarantees RJ growth and mainline shrinkage. If it passes, the furloughees will spend more time on the street, and it is MHO that all the outsourcing can only lead to further furloughs in the long run.
The threat of 300 more furloughs looms if the ERP doesn't pass. Anyone seen the lastest crystal ball? Roichek states "the new schedule has put a strain on the system. We don't have the excess of pilots that we had earlier in the year". This is not to say that the company wouldn't furlough if it gets shot down, as I believe they would in retaliation. However, I would rather be furloughed than see our furloughees left hung out to dry and see what is left of the company if this thing passes.
I VOTE NO!
Hvy
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Thks HVY,
I was about to ask if there were any non-furloughees out there with an opinion. The ERP seems to take care of all the remaining players while extending the furlough recall date significantly. I would have liked to see the management issues dealt with somewhat so that the shrinkage would stop. I think everyone agrees that the airline must grow to regain market share and profitability. The RJs seem inevitable however if they are soooooooo profitable for the company, maybe we should just buy them ourselves ? After all, I believe that we garuantee the loans for the RJs anyway ? The ratios stink ! I would have thought that a small guage narrow body would be at least worth 2 RJs I also wonder what gives with the US Air deal ? So much for focusing on rebuilding our core business. Then again, I may be less than informed on the benefits of US Air code share.
Without the US Air ties, the ERP is out ? Does this mean that it is not all that critical after all ? Heavy stuff. Hope that there can be some middle ground found somewhere so that this major recovery effort will work without selling out our fellow 844 on the street.
I was about to ask if there were any non-furloughees out there with an opinion. The ERP seems to take care of all the remaining players while extending the furlough recall date significantly. I would have liked to see the management issues dealt with somewhat so that the shrinkage would stop. I think everyone agrees that the airline must grow to regain market share and profitability. The RJs seem inevitable however if they are soooooooo profitable for the company, maybe we should just buy them ourselves ? After all, I believe that we garuantee the loans for the RJs anyway ? The ratios stink ! I would have thought that a small guage narrow body would be at least worth 2 RJs I also wonder what gives with the US Air deal ? So much for focusing on rebuilding our core business. Then again, I may be less than informed on the benefits of US Air code share.
Without the US Air ties, the ERP is out ? Does this mean that it is not all that critical after all ? Heavy stuff. Hope that there can be some middle ground found somewhere so that this major recovery effort will work without selling out our fellow 844 on the street.
HvyjetFO
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P3,
Not entirely sure about the USAir ties to it, but it is my understanding that this part has been separated from the whole proposal. I know it is not subject to membership ratifacation and the whole thing now lies with the MEC, but I don't know if one failure calls off the other. I have heard some respected people in the union say that the code share proposal has good qualities, but I agree with you in that the BEST proposal is to stop outsourcing and concentrate on the core business.
I also read that Exhibit B (the additional 5%) was withdrawn before the MEC voted on it, but I need to follow up on that.
Still voting NO!
We need to get U30-2 up and running.
Take care,
Hvy
Not entirely sure about the USAir ties to it, but it is my understanding that this part has been separated from the whole proposal. I know it is not subject to membership ratifacation and the whole thing now lies with the MEC, but I don't know if one failure calls off the other. I have heard some respected people in the union say that the code share proposal has good qualities, but I agree with you in that the BEST proposal is to stop outsourcing and concentrate on the core business.
I also read that Exhibit B (the additional 5%) was withdrawn before the MEC voted on it, but I need to follow up on that.
Still voting NO!
We need to get U30-2 up and running.
Take care,
Hvy
P3-Adub
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HVY
U30-2 is certainly a great idea if not a new one, the shuttle worked well. At one time not all that long ago we were debating on whethere to add A320s and 757s to the shuttle mix. Might be the right answer at the right time. Sure the overall traffic is down, we'll see how all of the smaller jets are received when the traffic picks up and slots become harder to obtain. There have been occasions when after poor weather in SFO a 400 has been used to pick up the slack in the operation between LAX and SFO, makes a lot of sense to me ! That is if other no frills carriers ( no harm intended ) are cutting into market share once owned by us. Gotta do something to get back in the game. I have no problem flying a shuttle type operation anywhere in the country especially when there is opportunity to move up some day eventually. One thing is for sure, it will be a much longer road to haul. The U30-2 would generate the need to bring back our furloughees a lot quicker. Just my opinion.
U30-2 is certainly a great idea if not a new one, the shuttle worked well. At one time not all that long ago we were debating on whethere to add A320s and 757s to the shuttle mix. Might be the right answer at the right time. Sure the overall traffic is down, we'll see how all of the smaller jets are received when the traffic picks up and slots become harder to obtain. There have been occasions when after poor weather in SFO a 400 has been used to pick up the slack in the operation between LAX and SFO, makes a lot of sense to me ! That is if other no frills carriers ( no harm intended ) are cutting into market share once owned by us. Gotta do something to get back in the game. I have no problem flying a shuttle type operation anywhere in the country especially when there is opportunity to move up some day eventually. One thing is for sure, it will be a much longer road to haul. The U30-2 would generate the need to bring back our furloughees a lot quicker. Just my opinion.
Sleepyhead
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Hey Hvy,
What is the feeling about the TA when you talk with other pilots in flt ops and in the cockpit? Are many people saying they will vote "NO'?
What is the feeling about the TA when you talk with other pilots in flt ops and in the cockpit? Are many people saying they will vote "NO'?
P3-Adub
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No FAs/ No Deal ?
Since the flight attendants have said no &%$#ing way they will consider anything, does this blow the deal ? Or have I missed part of the proposal that says the pilots will go at this alone ? Also, with all of the "NO Way" response from a lot of the pilots, is there any negotiating room in the proposal ? Pretty obvious a concession of some form will need to take place just wondering if there is a mechanism to find middle ground without giving away the farm, ie; selling out the furloughed folks indefinitely ? I too agree that the pay issue is OK, I just hate to see us give up flying without trying to fight back some.
Since the flight attendants have said no &%$#ing way they will consider anything, does this blow the deal ? Or have I missed part of the proposal that says the pilots will go at this alone ? Also, with all of the "NO Way" response from a lot of the pilots, is there any negotiating room in the proposal ? Pretty obvious a concession of some form will need to take place just wondering if there is a mechanism to find middle ground without giving away the farm, ie; selling out the furloughed folks indefinitely ? I too agree that the pay issue is OK, I just hate to see us give up flying without trying to fight back some.
Re: It will get shot down
Just wondering, what is the source is for this "additional furlough of 300" -- has management officially stated this? Just a threat so we'll pass the ERP? Anyone with reliable source for this info?
If reliable, what's the timetable? When loads drop in September?
Thanks.
HvyjetFO said:
Just wondering, what is the source is for this "additional furlough of 300" -- has management officially stated this? Just a threat so we'll pass the ERP? Anyone with reliable source for this info?
If reliable, what's the timetable? When loads drop in September?
Thanks.
F/O
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I'm afraid there will be more furloughs either way the ERP goes.
Should it pass, the fleet will shrink from the current 567 to as low as 534 and there will be furloughs. There is NO clause in the ERP that would preclude further furloughs as a result of this fleet downsizing.
Should it fail, the company will shrink anyway as mgt continues to blatantly ignore the contract and Express continues to take delivery of RJs.
Either way, Express gets more mainline flying. For mainline pilots it's a lose/lose situation. If you are junior, a yes vote is a vote to screw yourself over.
Should it pass, the fleet will shrink from the current 567 to as low as 534 and there will be furloughs. There is NO clause in the ERP that would preclude further furloughs as a result of this fleet downsizing.
Should it fail, the company will shrink anyway as mgt continues to blatantly ignore the contract and Express continues to take delivery of RJs.
Either way, Express gets more mainline flying. For mainline pilots it's a lose/lose situation. If you are junior, a yes vote is a vote to screw yourself over.
