UAL Capt in DEN- December 2010

[Amish RakeFight]

A quick story about PIC authority at UAL...

Great story!

Thanks for sharing.

 

[othello]

Thanks for sharing your story. As a 10 year commuter mid west to west coast. I have to say that while I can never see myself loosing it like the FO in your story. That should have been his ride home and his family will never get that christmas back.
You have had and hopefully will have many, many more days to spend with your dad having a drink watching the sunset.
I agree that your dad had every right to allow whom he wants in his JS but you could have stood up and done the right thing and met your dad the next day for his final leg of a long career.

Just one man's opinion.

 

[LXApilot]

Well... as a commuter when I was at the airlines and watching my father commute his entire career at UAL I have to admit I was a little torn. Believe me had this guy acted a little differently from the get-go I am sure we could have worked something out.

Also of note was that this was in the morning and there were (at the time) probably 8 or 9 flights on United every day between SFO and SAN. This was probably the second departure of the day... there were plenty of other seats heading his way that morning.

Every time I thumbed a ride on any carrier I was respectful and was denied a few times for what I thought was no apparent reason. I never complained or yelled just respectfully removed myself from the cockpit. If I had walked up asking for a ride home on Christmas I would have been a little stressed but when I heard the Captain's explanation I believe that myself, and most others, would just say "hey Captain- thanks anyway. I'll grab the next one. You guys have a great trip and enjoy retirement."

 

[LXApilot]

Sorry for the grammar issues with the posts.. I'm typing fast and haven't been proof-reading enough. But I do appreciate everyone's opinions and I do respectfully listen to all perspectives.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The story is a tough situation with a point. The point is not what should or should not have happened in the sighted situation but who has the authority over the jumpseat.

The captain.

CSR's, flight attendants, CASS computers, TSA, Secret service, dispatch, load control, etc. do not have the final say as they have been given in the recent past.

If the jumpseat is a the battle ground what will happen when there is a mx or wx issue and the captain needs to make a call prior to departure? Yes, the captain needs to use all available resources but ultimately needs to have the authority he has been granted by law.

Captains authority should not be surrendered.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

MEL's conflicting with the flight.

Multiple MEL conflicting with other MEL's.

Fuel issues.

WX. Hurricanes are very unpredictable.

One runway airports with alternates not on the down range side of the destination.

Radioactive overnights. Active in progress terrorism during overnights.

Paper alternates.

Company communication issues such as SELCAL, second radios, HF radio issues.

Medical issues in foreign countries. On board illness. Quarantines. Gate returns with sick passengers when dispatch does not want to address the situation.

Schedule changes causing fatigue with highly anticipated wx.

FOQA and ASAP being used in discipline.

Memos published giving permission only to be used against the crew when exercised.

etc., etc. etc.

CAPTAINS AUTHORITY IS UNDER ATTACK!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Sorry for the grammar issues with the posts.. I'm typing fast and haven't been proof-reading enough. But I do appreciate everyone's opinions and I do respectfully listen to all perspectives.

This is a teachable moment for both sides.

 

[clr4theapch]

Well the bottom line to this topic is the current regs spell out where the authority is, who has it and how it can be used.. as to this incident, video, witnesses will now be the judges to what happenes next.. Airport and TSA rules, company rules etc... way to messy to have gotten to this point...

In the end, I think they both get their hands slapped and we move on..

 

[Flopgut]

LXApilot: You should have got off the plane. Captain's authority is going away because too many captains are doing selfish, stupid things. You seriously rode around for two days with him before this?! Unbelieveable. When retirements resume, we need to pass a resolution that the company no longer sponsor any expense in celebrating a retirement flight. That money shoulde be set aside for furlough assistance or put into a group sick bank to fund some legitimate need.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

LXApilot: You should have got off the plane. Captain's authority is going away because too many captains are doing selfish, stupid things. You seriously rode around for two days with him before this?! Unbelieveable. When retirements resume, we need to pass a resolution that the company no longer sponsor any expense in celebrating a retirement flight. That money shoulde be set aside for furlough assistance or put into a group sick bank to fund some legitimate need.

The wasting of water needs to go, too.

 

[cheyflyer]

LXApilot: You should have got off the plane. Captain's authority is going away because too many captains are doing selfish, stupid things. You seriously rode around for two days with him before this?! Unbelieveable. When retirements resume, we need to pass a resolution that the company no longer sponsor any expense in celebrating a retirement flight. That money shoulde be set aside for furlough assistance or put into a group sick bank to fund some legitimate need.

It sounded like the story teller Was going to get off the plane.... but also, it sounded like the guy trying to get home was being a total dick about the jumpseat from the start. Maybe he should have actually spoken to the Captain first, explained His situation and desire to get home to his girls, then maybe the outcome would have been a little different. If the guy did in fact act the way portrayed in the story, then it probably would not have mattered if the son removed himself from the jumpseat, Im sure the Captain would have denied him access anyway based on his actions.

 

[IBNAV8R]

If the guy did in fact act the way portrayed in the story, then it probably would not have mattered if the son removed himself from the jumpseat, Im sure the Captain would have denied him access anyway based on his actions.

He wouldn't have rode in MY jumpseat either. Any word as to this guy's current employment status?

 

[Mud Eagle]

That should have been his ride home and his family will never get that christmas back.

LXApilot: You should have got off the plane.

I guess I'm just a dumb military guy who is obviously missing something here...

Why is it that he should have gotten off the JS on his father's retirement flight?

I get it that people are getting to work, getting home after work, etc, and how critical JSs are to that process. Seems to me that there are lots of jumpseats on lots of different flights, and to be fair there are lots of Christmases in a guy's career (I've missed plenty in my military career, so I get that....)...but there is only one retirement flight.

How was the needs of that one pilot, who could have jumped on any other aircraft going to his destination, and if he didn't make it home for that particular Christmas morning would have had plenty of others in the future, more pressing than a son being with his father on the singular last flight of his career? How is that jumpseater's "need" to be with his family any more important than the son's "need" to be with his father on that day?

 

[Flopgut]

It's simple Mud Eagle, the son should have had a seat in the back in case someone else would have needed the jumpseat. If it was truly so important to be with his Dad during his retirement flight then that should have been a neccessity. What if a fed showed up? Was his dad going to deny a fed the jumpseat as well? If he had to be on the jumpseat, then father and son could have offered the arranged for seat to the jumpseater they were bumping. The jumpseater blew his top, but both father and son dropped the ball and missed a chance to display real professionalism and do the right thing.

The captain's seat and captain's authority are institutions and are should be less about the actual individual. This thread highlights two UAL captains who made selfish needs their priority.

 

[zonker]

Who in their right mind is going to allow a progressively rude, then hostile, and then physically threatening person in the cockpit jumpseat?

His dad did the right thing by telling the jumpseater to take a hike.

 

[Flopgut]

Anybody who sets up this situation, and then can not de-escalate it, is at least partially to blame.

If the jumpseater got canned, then the captain should have lost a month's pay. That would be consistent.

With as many retirements as we have coming up, we're going to have to freshen up the protocols on this sort of thing. If the retiring pilot wants to dictate who is going along they can buy them a ticket.

BTW: I would feel somewhat different about this if it were the captain's last leg. You've got to draw the line somewhere or you'll have guys celebrating [exaggerating] their retirement flight into their retirement month....

 

[27 driver]

LXApilot: You should have got off the plane. Captain's authority is going away because too many captains are doing selfish, stupid things. You seriously rode around for two days with him before this?! Unbelieveable. When retirements resume, we need to pass a resolution that the company no longer sponsor any expense in celebrating a retirement flight. That money shoulde be set aside for furlough assistance or put into a group sick bank to fund some legitimate need.

Ya, thats perfect!!!!!! Lets just screw all those guys who have put in 20 or 30 years somewhere. They don't deserve ********************!

 

[Varmint]

Captain's authority plain and simple. The Captain should decide who gets to ride in his office as long as there are no regulatory agencies requesting a check flight. When you work in this industry you understand that guarantees of being home for christmas or any holiday are slim to none. When you chose to commute you make your odds of being home worse. After spending years and years accommodating the passengers, peers, and company this guy chose to make himself and his son happy and proud on his last trip. Good for him and good luck in retirement.

 

[HA25]

Everyone should take the time to send UAL a customer service message on how unacceptable it is for them to create culture that would cause the delay of a flight over a dispute with a gate agent and a captain regarding when a single bag was going to go.. the fact that UAL's corporate culture places the same value on the captain's authority over this trivial item as the gate agents shows why the company is failing as a business.

 

[Sluggo_63]

I guess I'm just a dumb military guy who is obviously missing something here...

Why is it that he should have gotten off the JS on his father's retirement flight?

I get it that people are getting to work, getting home after work, etc, and how critical JSs are to that process. Seems to me that there are lots of jumpseats on lots of different flights, and to be fair there are lots of Christmases in a guy's career (I've missed plenty in my military career, so I get that....)...but there is only one retirement flight.

How was the needs of that one pilot, who could have jumped on any other aircraft going to his destination, and if he didn't make it home for that particular Christmas morning would have had plenty of others in the future, more pressing than a son being with his father on the singular last flight of his career? How is that jumpseater's "need" to be with his family any more important than the son's "need" to be with his father on that day?

Well, I'll tell you... it wasn't the singular last flight of his father's career. This guy had jumpseated with his dad for the past two days, then went to Hawaii with him, and back to SFO, then back to IAD. SFO to IAD was the "singular last flight" of his dad's career. That's why if I was his dad, I would have told him to catch the next flight to Hawaii, or to wait at SFO for me on the way back.

I wouldn't have a problem with this guy using his Captain's authority to keep his son on the flight from SFO to IAD, for the last flight. This kid wanted to be on daddy's jumpseat for the entire last trip.

Also, I highly doubt the incident played out exactly as described... I have a hard time believing anyone asking for a jumpseat would start out like that. I'm sure there was a conversation that was a little less confrontational that the one described. There's three sides to every story, and I'm betting that this guy didn't burst into the cockpit pointing fingers, laughing, and saying "you're outta' here buddy... THIS JUMPSEAT IS MINE!!!" I'm not saying there isn't a fair share of jerks out there, but there is something fishy about the beginning of this story.