UAL Capt in DEN- December 2010

[St. Nic]

This tool deserves to go down. Their are two sides to every story and it doesn't suprise me this guy lost his cool. Typical

 

[CesnaCaptn]

This tool deserves to go down. Their are two sides to every story and it doesn't suprise me this guy lost his cool. Typical

Typical of what?

 

[Wesb737fo]

wow... not making any judgements in this case but, time after time I have heard guys at my airline say they have always had witnesses handy when confronting CSR's, FA's or whoever during these type of situations. It's just to easy for people to lie. To get one of us high and mighty pilots in trouble must give some of these people great satisfaction.

Maybe the Captain was fed up with the general erosion of his authority and made a jackwagon out of himself. Too bad this may cost him his job, I don't think it should but these are the times we live in. A350 said it right, sit down, make some phone calls. For me, it would have ended when the guy prevented my access to the ramp. I would then get a witness (FO perhaps) to watch the guy prevent my access to the ramp.

On a side note, on a recent flight while chatting with the CA during boarding, a FA came up and began to tell us about how her previous front end crew were big jerks. She went on to say she overheard them talking about our President with unflattering terms, claimed they were racists for calling him the N word and then tried to record their conversation using her cell phone. Wow... I didn't make a judgement about the previous crew because I wasn't there, but, the fact that she would have tried to eavesdrop and record something in an effort to punish the front end for their opinions was a little bit of a stunner.

 

[Wesb737fo]

This tool deserves to go down. Their are two sides to every story and it doesn't suprise me this guy lost his cool. Typical

let me guess .... you are dating the customer service rep?

 

[COpilot]

Like it or not, there was contact. With no witnesses, the CSR can spin the story.

I've been using the iphone for some time now.

Whenever there appears to be a possibility of confrontation or dispute; I stop
I say "I'm now turning on my recorder (video or sound) for both our protection."

I carry on the conversation as I should, and the reaction is usually one of give up on their part.

 

[densoo]

I've been using the iphone for some time now.

Whenever there appears to be a possibility of confrontation or dispute; I stop
I say "I'm now turning on my recorder (video or sound) for both our protection."

I carry on the conversation as I should, and the reaction is usually one of give up on their part.

It is amazing people's response to being recorded. I have road ragers tailgate me on a road near where I live, weaving back and forth and generally being dangerous and obnoxious. Can't help it if I only go 9 miles over the speed limit. On two occasions I've pulled out my flip phone, opened it, and pointed it at them.

One guy started to pass me and I followed him with the phone as he came up along side. As soon as he saw the phone he put on his brakes, put himself in my blind spot, and stayed there. Slowed down, he slowed down. Sped up, he sped up. Until we parted ways at the next intersection. They immediately realize that their tailgate and wreckless driving, make/model of car, license plate, and face are about to go on youtube, then an email to the local PD with the youtube link. They get it.

And yes, I am a piece of work.
And no, the flip phone doesn't even have a camera.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

clr4theapch,

Just curious. Do you have any experience flying a passenger jet in the US that weighs >100k lbs?

Thanks

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I've been using the iphone for some time now.

Whenever there appears to be a possibility of confrontation or dispute; I stop
I say "I'm now turning on my recorder (video or sound) for both our protection."

I carry on the conversation as I should, and the reaction is usually one of give up on their part.

I'd highly suggest you know verbatim the taping laws of the state you are in before you do the above. A savvy opponet may have you legally keel hauled on stronger grounds than the UAL guy is looking at (not much in his case IMHO).

edit: I found it. http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.html it's clear as mud in cases, good luck and I give you my jailhouse/cockpit lawyer permission

I think the website was "can I tape" and covered most states, but it's been a long time since I looked.

Life today surely isn't Pappy Boyington running things in the Pacific. A quick fist would solve many problems if done right.

 

[IBNAV8R]

clr4theapch,

Just curious. Do you have any experience flying a passenger jet in the US that weighs >100k lbs?

Thanks

And this is relevant to the topic, how?

 

[C-150ETOPS]

And this is relevant to the topic, how?

He referred to the Captain as a "tool".

He also discounted the effects of stress in performance as a result of a confrontation before a flight. That is a potential huge safety problem.

While I have never been in a situation at that level before a flight, I have seen other power trips by various departments throwing their weight around and pressuring a the pilots to conform to their BS without considering the pilots side of an issue. The intent of a poster is sometimes tough to decipher, I am respectfully asking him if he has ever been in the other seat like this Captain was. The >100K isn't scientific. I know guys who flew nothing bigger than a C172 who excercised command authority more than B777 Captains I've flown with.

He made a post with a reasoning that I am questioning respectfully.

 

[J.Otto]

I see adults acting like fools all the time!

 

[Pirep1]

Don't the jetbridges in DEN have surveillance equiptment installed? Was told by the rampers to look up (in the jetbridge) near the ramp access door. That stuff is video/audio surveillance equiptment. Looked like it could be, for what it's worth.

 

[Jetjockey]

Anytime there is a dispute, set the parking break, and walk off the airplane to the nearest weather room. Phone calls should be made from there. By removing yourself, the plane isn't going anywhere. No arguments with the agent, no direct altercation. No he said/she said. Your point is handled by dispatch, and the Chief Pilot's office.

 

[Motown]

So... Anybody know how the court appearance turned out yesterday morning?

 

[slaquer5]

clr4theapch,

Just curious. Do you have any experience flying a passenger jet in the US that weighs >100k lbs?

Thanks

So that is what qualifies someone to have an opinion ? Please check your ego at the front door.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

yeah...I'm curious to see what the result was from yesterday's court appearance

 

[Regul8r]

because I just cannot envision two adult professionals making all that fuss over, well Nothing!

And neither can I. But you're making a HUGE assumption that the CSR agent is a professional. My experience tells me otherwise.

 

[HA25]

and the castration of the airline pilot is now complete.... check please!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

So that is what qualifies someone to have an opinion ? Please check your ego at the front door.

Spare me the lecture leather boy.

Somebody else correctly asked me about the post and I clarified my position with a reply. If you can't understand my stance after reading it again, please PM me your Teletubbies Forum moderator screen name and I'll send you a JPEG of my clarified post in crayon form so it may be easier to understand.

 

[A-V-8]

The comment in bold could definitely be explained by....

On the jetway now, there were about three CSR supervisors, the CSR, and four Denver Airport police officers. The Captain was surprised when the police arrived, and he became concerned about the escalating situation. He made the statement that he was exercising his Captain’s Authority to board the bag in the cockpit. One police officer came forward, stating that “you have no authority, I am the authority, and your authority is only in effect on the airplane, and then you can be Captain or Admiral or whatever you want.”

this.

The pilot "was" a member of an exclusive club in N.M.

And if both of these comments are true I have a feeling that ALPA and some others are about to eat crow. There is only one good reason for a LEO to say that to a pilot who is packing if you know what I mean.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

clr4theapch,

Just curious. Do you have any experience flying a passenger jet in the US that weighs >100k lbs?

Thanks

Heck,
A 50 seat CRJ from Bentonville weighs that much on any given day, heck the infants weigh the FAA 195lb adult average, the parents scrape both sides of the MCD, and the beverage cart is smeared with lard sweat from one pass. The overwhelming scent of bacon grease will actually waft forward to the front of the plane!
Tons of fun!
PBR

 

[C-150ETOPS]

PBR,

That's some funny sheet.

I can smell it now, along with the stale bad breath of just smoked cigarettes mixed with the rotten remains of unchewed pork rinds trapped between the 12 remaining teeth :laugh:

 

[homerjdispatch]

Heck,
A 50 seat CRJ from Bentonville weighs that much on any given day, heck the infants weigh the FAA 195lb adult average, the parents scrape both sides of the MCD, and the beverage cart is smeared with lard sweat from one pass. The overwhelming scent of bacon grease will actually waft forward to the front of the plane!
Tons of fun!
PBR

Thanksgiving at your home????

 

[Fubijaakr]

And if both of these comments are true I have a feeling that ALPA and some others are about to eat crow. There is only one good reason for a LEO to say that to a pilot who is packing if you know what I mean.

That would explain a lot about the whole altercation.

 

[clr4theapch]

And to answer the question, if I have flown anything over 100K lbs.. NO... been up front alot though, and have my fair share of hours in the pointy end.. however, my point was simple.. based on THIS report and the way it was reported HERE.. I think 2 professionals should have much better self control.. safety, stress, passaenger perception, on and on... this sould have been a none event.. there are may other ways to have handled this.. heck just drop the bag in the FWD hold.. it could have been sent up to the jet way as soon as they blocked in at the dest...

Where is the captain's authority start?? I have asked many this week.. and they all stay at the cabin door.. is the CSR being a jerk.. probably.. but was this worth all this??

JMHO...

 

[LXApilot]

A quick story about PIC authority at UAL...

I was at the commuter airlines at the time my father was on his retirement trip at United and I had gone along to ride OMC for the last two days. Had flown in the night before IAD-SFO and spent a great night out with Dad, the First Officer and some Flight Attendants he had known throughout his career. Next morning we went to airport where we were supposed to fly SFO to HNL with a stop in SAN.

I was OMC and the flight was full. Just before the agent closed out the flight a United First Officer came into the cockpit and looks at me; points his finger into my face and says "who do you fly for?"

I say "Republic Airways."

He laughs and says "I thought so... you're outta here. This is my jumpseat."

I was pretty polite with the guy and apologized but said that I was riding with my Dad on his retirement flight and that he'd probably want to discuss it with him. The F/O responded: "I don't want to hear your sob stories. United crew-members have priority on the jumpseat."

My Father turned around in his seat and got the guys attention. He explained that he already had a jumpseater and although I wasn't a UAL pilot there were "special circumstances" and that the F/O would need to take the next flight. My Father explained that this was his retirement flight and he had already made his decision regarding OMCs on the flight. He was pretty stern but he wasn't rude.. just matter of fact... even told him to have a good day.

The F/O leaves the cockpit without another word... we didn't think much of it other than a "hey hope that guy gets where he's going", etc. A few moments later the CSR comes up in the cockpit and confronts me telling me that I have no authority to tell a United crewmember who can sit in the cockpit. I explain that I wasn't telling the UAL F/O what OMC policy was at his own airline. The CSR then tells me that I will have to get off of the flight because I was being bumped by a UAL crewmember.

My Father intervened and explains to the CSR that he has ultimate authority regarding jumpseaters and that he was using "Captains authority" regarding who would sit on the cockpit jumpseat. He politely asked the CSR to close out the flight and that he was through discussing this situation.

The CSR leaves and within a few moments comes back into the cockpit again telling me I had to go. Not wanting to cause a problem I start to collect my bag and head out of the cockpit to resolve the situation. As I'm getting out of my seat the agent informs us that zone control had made the call regarding who would be sitting in the cockpit jumpseat and that the UAL crewmember would be accommodated instead of me.

My father, who was becoming a little perturbed, explained to the agent a little more forcefully that he makes the decisions regarding jumpseaters; not the agent or zone control; and that he had already made a decision to accommodate me. He then asked the agent to leave and "close the door."

So the agent leaves the cockpit... then a call comes in from the F/A's in back. "Hey guys- that pilot is back and he's really angry."

As soon as the flight attendants words are spoken the original United F/O comes into the cockpit- walks past me and leans over the pedestal. He glares at the F/O on our flight and then sticks his right hand out and pokes my father in the chest with his finger as he launches into a tirade. "You know what?" he says. "I'm glad you are retiring... our pilot group is better without ***holes like you. You don't deserve to wear this uniform." etc.

He then admits that "if I go to the flight office with this; I know who they're going to back.. but it's Christmas Eve and I've got two little girls at home waiting for their Dad and I was furloughed by this company and that's why I'm riding in this cockpit and your son is staying here."

Dad asks the guy to "get out of the cockpit" to which the guy says for my Father to "go **** yourself." So in an interesting twist my Father tells the guy "I think you just made a big mistake... you and me, outside, right now."

The United F/O starts loudly yelling "Oh absolutely! Let's go outside! Let's do it!" and he walks out of the cockpit. Dad runs his seat back and follows him out the door; leaving me and the flight F/O sitting there strapped into our seats listening to the air conditioner noise. It's silent for a few moments.

Then Flight Attendants start coming up front asking what's going on. The F/O asks me to watch the store for a minute and he says he's going back to make sure everything is okay. So now it's just me sitting there.

After about 5 minutes the First Officer comes back up and sits down in his seat and straps in- we're silent for a moment as he is giving the 30 degree stare out the window. He then turns around to me and says "wow."

I ask what all is going on and if I should go back... he then proceeds to tell me the story of what he saw back on the jetway. Apparently the angry F/O was standing on the jetway cursing and punching the side of the aircraft skin which is exposed next to the boarding door. He explains that the angry F/O had asked him to "get with him on this" to which he responded that the last thing he was going to do was side with someone acting so unprofessionally. He further explained that he should think of his family and not be picking a fight with a senior captain on his retirement flight. Apparently the agent had called the San Francisco police down to figure out the situation but was still adamant about the United F/O displacing me on the jumpseat. He claimed that he had the authority to decide who sat in the jumpseat, not the Captain, as it was the gate agent who determines boarding priorities; etc.

Apparently when the police approached my Father and the flight F/O stepped back onboard the aircraft and demanded the door be closed - another CSR who was a bystander during the episode went ahead and closed the aircraft door. The flight F/O returned to the cockpit and told me this story followed by my father who had stopped in the galley to explain what had happened to the Flight Attendants, and get a fresh cup of coffee.

With the incident apparently over we pushed back and went on to SAN and then to HNL. That night out at Duke's we're watching the sun go down when he gets a call from a duty manager regarding the "jumpseat incident". He starts to explain the episode by saying "it's my retirement flight and my son is an airline pilot so he was sitting in the jumpseat." at that the duty manager said "you know what? I'm satisfied hearing that much... have a great retirement and we appreciate all your years here. I think this guy might be out of the job... don't worry about it- you handled it well." and hung up the phone. The next day we went on to SFO and the following day on to IAD.

It was a great and memorable trip but it was marred by this incident. I never figured to see or hear of another professional pilot acting like the First Officer in this incident but I guess I can't explain the mindset of everyone.

CSR, Zone Control, angry First Officers, etc... there is a precedent that must be out there that says that anyone can challenge the Captain on a flight regarding his decisions. I for one am totally behind the Captain having ultimate authority regarding the operation of the aircraft- on the ground and in the air.

I'm not 100% certain regarding the circumstances of this case you mention in DEN but agree that the captain probably could have returned to the cockpit and refused to release the brakes before a resolution was reached. No need to try and get physical- in any way- pushing past someone or otherwise.

 

[Sluggo_63]

A quick story about PIC authority at UAL...

Dude, I don't condone how the first officer acted AT ALL, but you had already spent two nights OMCing with your Dad, had a great time, and it's Christmas Eve and the flights were full... This guy was trying to get home to be with his young daughters for Christmas, and you wanted to have some Mai-Tai's at Dukes.

If I was your Dad, I would have said, "Son, thanks for coming this far, I had a great time, but I've got to get one of my fellow crewmembers home to see his kids for Christmas. If you can catch the next flight to Hawaii, I'll be a Duke's, if not, have a great Christmas and I'll see you when I get back."

I'm not trying to say that the Captain doesn't have full authority over the jumpseat, but I'm saying that he probably could have used that authority for the greater good, not for selfish interests.

 

[clr4theapch]

Good story, thanks for sharing... As a dispatcher, I have had the pleasure of many great Jump Seat flights and getting bumped.. Having full understanding of the situation, I jump right up with a smile on my face and thank the crew for the try...

As a reminder while we are on the topic...

The dispatchers always thank the pilots for keeping us in mind in their contract wording for allowing jumpseating for us, and the occasional rescue from a CSR that does not know we even exist..

In these new times of high loads, commuting dispatchers face very tough situations, in some cases spending most of a day off just trying to get to or from work.. Many companies now require dispatchers to live at the airlines operation city because of missed shifts.. and many have been fired for missing work due to commuting in the past..

So thanks for remembering the occasional dispatcher that needs a ride up front or in the back, please just remember that their job could be on the line if they can't get to work... and that the CSR is our major obstical..

 

[GuppyWN]

I could write a book on United jumpseat stories. Both good and bad.

Gup

 

[clr4theapch]

Sluggo63, though I see your point... this captain most likely accomodated people all his career... and this was the last flight for the rest of his life!.. I think that sentiment overrides any thought of selfishness..

If anything, the airline should not have made is last trip to such a place on a Christmas day, knowing crews would be trying to get home.. I'm sure everyone ( scheduling, dispatch, management) knew his son was comming along in advance of this trip... Retirement flights are pretty well notied by all at operations..