UAL ALPA "Apology"

[waveflyer]

Airlines with the exception of TWA were making record profits in the mid to late 90's. Every major was hiring in droves. Simply look at a UA or DL seniority list and see how many pilots were hired between 1997 and 2000.

The "trend" you refer to has been cycling off and on further back than 1979. I have friends that were hired at TWA in 1968 and were furloughed 3 times. Some sat sideways for 15 years before even thinking about being able to upgrade to F/O. Back then, there was no such thing as Southwest, JetBlue, or regionals to apply to. But then again, majors today aren't hiring pilots with 250 hours and a commercial ticket.

Pipe already said it- a delta 747 captain in the early 70's made $105/hour- google an inflation adjustor and let me know what that equates to. Your point is taken- it's cyclical- more like spiraling down- the ups don't equal the downs

BTW-You talk like having regionals to apply to is a good thing? Why are majors not hiring guys w/ lower time?- b/c there is a market of RJ guys that damn near forces young pilots to work for those sh**ty companies and fly those planes at 1/3 wages to get competitive for a major. And young guys careers get split up for a short term advantage to old guys that ended up blowing up in their face.... IE: you relaxed your scope, marginalized the entire skill set- MGMT: "see a 23 yo can and will do this and be safe- your experience doesn't matter" Meanwhile the only reason most of those 20something pilots fly for those companies is b/c they have to in order to get on w/ a major- and the more you release your scope- the longer they will have to do it to be competitive- and now you can't fly your international plane for much more than a good real estate agent makes.

THE POINT:
Pattern bargaining does not work since deregulation. Either become a guild/PAC and let us all individually work out our own contracts- or get working on a national list. I'll say it til i'm blue in the face-- what we are seeing will not stop- until we get our seniority system fixed. It kills our leverage.

 

[jke406]

Wha...???? Is this the same ALPA that is constantly criticized on these boards on an hourly basis????

What about recalling John Prater??? Or "Taking it back"?

Apparently you will not stop posting irrelevant blabber until all pilots, their spouses, kids, and dogs are volunteering 40 hours a week (each) at ALPA. Unreal.

These posters are acknowledging a great move by the United MEC. Nothing more, nothing less. So if you want to recruit this agressively, I believe Mitt Romney could use another volunteer for his cause.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

THE POINT:
Pattern bargaining does not work since deregulation.

Sure it has.... it just worked opposite... management pattern bargained us right down to our current status...

Either become a guild/PAC and let us all individually work out our own contracts

What does this mean? How would we individually work on our contracts...and how does that differ from now?

- or get working on a national list. I'll say it til i'm blue in the face-- what we are seeing will not stop- until we get our seniority system fixed. It kills our leverage.

The downs are more frequent than the ups. Something that no one seems to consider when dumping 1K's into a professional pilot education.

However, a National List has proven to be..unworkable. Please provide a explanation of how a National List would work. I am all for a workable solution.

National Lists are a great idea during the down times... but no one seems to talk about them during the growth phases when everyone is getting a piece of the pie...

One way to make a national List work is a fund subsidy. So, a pilot loses his B737 CA job making 100/hr. He goes to work for another carrier flying whatever as an FO making 25/hr. The subsidy fund would make up the other 75/hr or a percentage of it...

The big question is... who is going to pay for a National Sen. list. Management certianly isn't going to pay the difference. And if they did, how are we going to get them to agree to it...

Apparently you will not stop posting irrelevant blabber until all pilots, their spouses, kids, and dogs are volunteering 40 hours a week (each) at ALPA. Unreal.

How about 5 hours. 60,000 pilots giving 5 hours a week to improve the profession. That is 300,000 work hours... or the equivilent of 7500 people doing a 40 hour work week.

Imagine how the profession could improve if we had 7500 more people working to make the profession better.

And that is the trick... it is not supposed to be a few doing all the work, but All doing some of the work.

 

[Morning Wood]

Pipe already said it- a delta 747 captain in the early 70's made $105/hour- google an inflation adjustor and let me know what that equates to. Your point is taken- it's cyclical- more like spiraling down- the ups don't equal the downs

That is exactly my point. It has always been cyclical and the downturn we currently see has no end in sight frankly. During the “good old days” when Delta 747 captains made $105/hour, we didn’t’ see the number of bankruptcies, pensions being lost, or rent-a-CEO’s. You certainly would not have seen pilots taking out adds in a newspaper calling out Jack Frye, CR Smith, or CE Woolman.

BTW-You talk like having regionals to apply to is a good thing?

I might be assuming incorrectly here, but I don’t see any military hardware on your profile. How did you build your time to move on to an Airbus?

 

[ironspud]

That is exactly my point. It has always been cyclical and the downturn we currently see has no end in sight frankly. During the “good old days” when Delta 747 captains made $105/hour, we didn’t’ see the number of bankruptcies, pensions being lost, or rent-a-CEO’s. You certainly would not have seen pilots taking out adds in a newspaper calling out Jack Frye, CR Smith, or CE Woolman.

quote]

Delta had 747's in the good old days?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

http://www.airliners.net/search/pho...nt=1252903&truecount=false&engine_version=6.0


so did American....

 

[GogglesPisano]

That is exactly my point. It has always been cyclical and the downturn we currently see has no end in sight frankly. During the “good old days” when Delta 747 captains made $105/hour, we didn’t’ see the number of bankruptcies, pensions being lost, or rent-a-CEO’s. You certainly would not have seen pilots taking out adds in a newspaper calling out Jack Frye, CR Smith, or CE Woolman.

quote]

Delta had 747's in the good old days?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?...o_nr=7&prev_id=0946758&next_id=0700760&size=L

 

[Morning Wood]

That is exactly my point. It has always been cyclical and the downturn we currently see has no end in sight frankly. During the “good old days” when Delta 747 captains made $105/hour, we didn’t’ see the number of bankruptcies, pensions being lost, or rent-a-CEO’s. You certainly would not have seen pilots taking out adds in a newspaper calling out Jack Frye, CR Smith, or CE Woolman.

quote]

Delta had 747's in the good old days?

I was responding to a previous post, but yes, Delta did operate 747's at one time.

 

[waveflyer]

I might be assuming incorrectly here, but I don’t see any military hardware on your profile. How did you build your time to move on to an Airbus?

Yeah- And I hope i have some credibility here bc I did fly for the regionals. It's not about getting into pissing contests- who's capable and who's not- it's about leverage. My issue w/ the "regionals" is that unless youre super connected- you can't fly turboprops for a few years and get on w/ a major. Now you stay for close to 10years or more and end up flying captain on a more fuel efficient DC-9 for a third to 1/2 of the $$. I don't mind the airplane- I just think they should be flown by the majors, which is a common sentiment, I know, on both sides of the major/regional fence.

(This is what i saw at the regionals at least- my story is alright- i'm doing fine. But it's not about just me. I hope if i can instill one thing- it's that if you think that just b/c you are doing well today that you aren't affected by what's going on in the industry- you're crazy. "That will never happen to me" is not an attitude we can afford to have anymore. Every time a pilot is struggling anywhere, that takes leverage from ALL of us. We'd do well to remember that, and should be intelligent enough to SEE what takes leverage from us and make changes to gain it back.

 

[waveflyer]

I'll get to you Rez- Good ideas btw- but until people see how much leverage we lose w/ our current seniority system- we'll never work to solve it.

MW- you said it exactly- Since deregulation companies fold and go through bankruptcies and start-ups come and go- YET- we hold onto a seniority system that virtually MARRIES us to our airline. Some get attached to companies- but no other employee groups have as much to lose as we do if our company fails. Our management KNOWS that we will accept almost anything to keep us from starting over as a new hire/worst schedules/poverty wage-and they use that against us.

During this cyclical downturn WHO was it that bailed out the airline industry?

You can say that all airline employees took cuts- BUT NONE CLOSE TO WHAT THE PILOTS TOOK> It's funny b/c pilots are generally conservative, free market capitalists who believe we should allow weak companies to go out of business- but yet we have a system that doesn't allow us to allow that We bailed the airlines to the tune of billions in this latest downturn.

We need to set up a system that allows us to change companies w/o taking such an ENORMOUS hit in lifestyle and money. Until we can allow those management groups that are bad at running airlines to fail- this downturn will not stop.

Until then, it's our fault what happens to us.

 

[waveflyer]

That and..........

WE'LL NEVER SEE LEVERAGE RETURN TO US UNTIL PRATER AND OUR UNION LEADERSHIP SHAVE THOSE DAMN MUSTACHES!!

THOSE MUSTACHES STEAL LEVERAGE FROM ALL OF US!! It's just bad PR. Big fat bellies don't help either.
(tongue- firmly in cheek__)

happy new year all, btw

 

[jke406]

How about 5 hours. 60,000 pilots giving 5 hours a week to improve the profession. That is 300,000 work hours... or the equivilent of 7500 people doing a 40 hour work week.

Imagine how the profession could improve if we had 7500 more people working to make the profession better.

And that is the trick... it is not supposed to be a few doing all the work, but All doing some of the work.

My man, you sound like a Soviet dictator. I acknowledge your tenacity, but your message is diluted by your absoutely unrealistic and naive vision. It's not even remotely plausible.

To even think that any MEC or LEC is efficient enough to utilize every member for 5 hours a week...what a complete mess that would be.

Tell you what, go to any business and ask why they don't have 8 people splitting a 40-hour work week (except for Wal-mart). It's called "continuity." And common sense.

You would do much better setting realistic goals and reflecting them in your posts. Your Utopian gibberish is a bunch of white noise in the real world. Unless, of course, you are a former politburo member.

 

[414Flyer]

Delta also had C-130 (L-100)s in the cargo ops.

 

[hmmm]

After reading all the above thread, and previous threads, and you were in the bottom of the top third of a decently secure regional within a hour commute from home via jumpseat - and you were offered a class date at UAL - would you go? age 40

Been in aviation forever but as yet never been able to understand the directions of management.

Wish I did.

All I do know is how to fly the plane, do my job as expected and try to collect a paycheck then run for the jumpseat home.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My man, you sound like a Soviet dictator. I acknowledge your tenacity, but your message is diluted by your absoutely unrealistic and naive vision. It's not even remotely plausible.

Free will?

To even think that any MEC or LEC is efficient enough to utilize every member for 5 hours a week...what a complete mess that would be.

Then its a bad idea and it dies with your wisdom

Tell you what, go to any business and ask why they don't have 8 people splitting a 40-hour work week (except for Wal-mart). It's called "continuity." And common sense.

except for walmart.... nice....

You would do much better setting realistic goals and reflecting them in your posts. Your Utopian gibberish is a bunch of white noise in the real world. Unless, of course, you are a former politburo member.

How about you tell us what are realistic goals... or is the status quo acceptable...

 

[Freight Dog]

After reading all the above thread, and previous threads, and you were in the bottom of the top third of a decently secure regional within a hour commute from home via jumpseat - and you were offered a class date at UAL - would you go? age 40

Depends on you. Can you afford that big of a hit in pay for a year? If you can, I'd say go for it, you'd have 25 years left. If you can't - there's your answer. Bear in mind also that you'll be the first to go should there be a merger or another downturn. If you are OK with that... go to UAL.

Been in aviation forever but as yet never been able to understand the directions of management.

Wish I did.

You and every other U.S. airline pilot. The truth is, we're pawns, and our leaders are carpetbagging corporate raiders out to make a quick buck off of stock options, not the visionaries who built their airlines from nothing.

All I do know is how to fly the plane, do my job as expected and try to collect a paycheck then run for the jumpseat home.

That's about all you can do, and also support your union - go to the meetings, vote and voice your opinion.