UAL air-to-air rant

[HAL]

A few days ago, while mid-Pacific, one of the UAL guys came on the air-to-air frequency, and went into a long rant about the progress of negotiations on a combined contract with CAL. I don't know about the details of what you are all looking for, and I fully support your right to get the best contract possible, using whatever legal means you have.

However...

This guy was using the F-bomb on the radio, calling the union President a lot of unacceptable slurs, and worst of all, advocating giving the passengers less than normal treatment. He wanted everyone to turn off 'Channel 9', stop playing the 'halfway to Hawaii' game, taxi slow, use sick time, etc.

Whatever beef you have with management, I get it. But to involve the passengers is unprofessional, stupid, and childish. They are the ones who ultimately pay your salary, and since UAL already has a marginal image with the traveling public, you should be doing anything you can to make their flight as comfortable and enjoyable as possible. Does this mean you lose an edge with management? No. It means you can still negotiate as strongly as possible, while maintaining yourself as complete professionals.

In a word (or two), Grow Up.

/rant

HAL

 

[bizicmo]

I don't understand why anyone would thing there would be a contract in place prior to the company being able to get a joint certificate?

 

[filejw]

I would rather listen to the SWA guy rant on why he cant get a piece of A**. In fact he should change jobs to DAL so he could lay over in BKK or MNL. Problem solved. Maybe the UAL guy should start bidding MNL too so he could only have one thing to think about.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Maybe the UAL guy should start bidding MNL too so he could only have one thing to think about.

GREAT! Now there's wine all over my keyboard. Thanks a planeload.

:laugh:

 

[On Your Six]

I don't understand why anyone would thing there would be a contract in place prior to the company being able to get a joint certificate?

It happened at Delta, prior to the SLI too.


OYS

 

[luckytohaveajob]

It was not me on the radio but I know the thoughts as do many others.

What is CAL doing? CAL is screwing up the entire deal. Jay Pierce has got to go. Negotiating with an ultimatum from a worthless CAL pilot group is not much of a negotiation.

 

[Mikes Apartment]

I don't understand why anyone would thing there would be a contract in place prior to the company being able to get a joint certificate?

If you're not being sarcastic then that's one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen. Didn't you watch Delta/Northwest? You act like an expert so that's why I'm asking.

 

[bizicmo]

It happened at Delta, prior to the SLI too.


OYS

Well this isn't delta. Throw smisek over there and see how early it would have been done.

 

[taxicabdriver]

It was not me on the radio but I know the thoughts as do many others.

What is CAL doing? CAL is screwing up the entire deal. Jay Pierce has got to go. Negotiating with an ultimatum from a worthless CAL pilot group is not much of a negotiation.

What is UAL doing? I think it was the CAL mec who had to file 3 grievances so far...and UAL has done what exactly???

 

[bizicmo]

If you're not being sarcastic then that's one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen. Didn't you watch Delta/Northwest? You act like an expert so that's why I'm asking.

Show me when anything at CAL has ever happened like at Delta/northwest? Even their so-called Delta +1 attempted was sub delta. It was full of CAL honky donk. Hell the pay rate at my level were still sub delta, so how can they call that delta +1?

 

[Mercyful Fate]

I would rather listen to the SWA guy rant on why he cant get a piece of A**. In fact he should change jobs to DAL so he could lay over in BKK or MNL. Problem solved. Maybe the UAL guy should start bidding MNL too so he could only have one thing to think about.

HAHAHAHAHA, this is classic!

 

[rattler]

It was not me on the radio but I know the thoughts as do many others.

What is CAL doing? CAL is screwing up the entire deal. Jay Pierce has got to go. Negotiating with an ultimatum from a worthless CAL pilot group is not much of a negotiation.

What the F are you talking about? Are you suggesting the CAL MEC is asking for too much? judging by your screen name I guess UA style negotiating isn't working out for you either.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

No CAL is not asking for to much. CAL is not asking with enough force, attitude, and desire.

Management tests the rules of the game every chance it gets.

Staffing problems are a management problem. Yet the unions frame it as a company problem which the pilots are responsible.

Right seat flying, picking up the phone on days off, responding to ACARS messages about schedule extensions, not calling in sick when the pilot is sick, not calling in fatigued when the schedule is un-human. UAL pilots do not do these types of actions. CAL pilots do.

Pay issues. Since when do pilots have to do assignments they are not getting paid to do? CAL pilots do it all the time.

Why doesn't CAL ALPA tell its pilot to walk out of the sim when they pay ends instead of when the session ends. Why do CAL pilots sit in class they are not getting paid to do? How is management going to fire 30 pilots who walk out off after the time they are getting paid to work?

Get the most stressed pilots at CAL. Sign them all up for the same session and then walk out two hours later. Get a CAL ALPA rep to tell management they will come back when management is ready to pay them for the eight hours the session is scheduled.

When computer based training must be done without pay, do not do it.

Actions like those would demand respect and be legal.

 

[eaglesview]

Do not complete the required Merger Training Test by the deadline of July 8th. They can stick the entire UAL pilot list on NQ. I assume CO has got the same test with the same deadline as we do.

 

[turbinej]

I am not aware of any merger training test over on the Cal side.

 

[Flopgut]

There isn't any required merger training on the CAL side. This is Luckytohaveajob's chance to put his money where his mouth is and do what he is sugggesting the CAL pilots won't. Refuse to do the training! We'll see what happens.

I think I have Luckytohaveajob figured out. He's the opposite of what he suggests he is. He's scared and he's a wimp. The scope fight scares him because UAL ALPA already gave it up. Therefore he doesn't like Jay Pierce, doesn't like the way negotiations are going, and "wants a deal". He'd rather speak to the fact that UAL outnumbers CAL in total pilots and try to gain something in SLI.

If UAL and CAL ALPA prevail on scope we hire 2000 pilots. Everyone moves up in status. These airlines do not overlap and there will be plenty of great positions for everyone. If we cave on scope we furlough 2000 pilots. and we can kiss our assess goodbye. It's that simple.

 

[whatitdoing?]

There isn't any required merger training on the CAL side. This is Luckytohaveajob's chance to put his money where his mouth is and do what he is sugggesting the CAL pilots won't. Refuse to do the training! We'll see what happens.

I think I have Luckytohaveajob figured out. He's the opposite of what he suggests he is. He's scared and he's a wimp. The scope fight scares him because UAL ALPA already gave it up. Therefore he doesn't like Jay Pierce, doesn't like the way negotiations are going, and "wants a deal". He'd rather speak to the fact that UAL outnumbers CAL in total pilots and try to gain something in SLI.

If UAL and CAL ALPA prevail on scope we hire 2000 pilots. Everyone moves up in status. These airlines do not overlap and there will be plenty of great positions for everyone. If we cave on scope we furlough 2000 pilots. and we can kiss our assess goodbye. It's that simple.

Well said. That's the simple point!!! Why the f*** am I gonna sign away scope only to lose my job? It doesn't effect just me, but everyone on the list. Capt's will downgrade and fo's will be furloughed. Any questions?

 

[Metro752]

Watchout. The super senior Skywest and Republic guys are drooling over the mere thought of you guys caving on scope. I'm sure the super senior at all of regionals would be too. It's just easier to pick on non-union and teamster airlines...

 

[Flopgut]

Luckytohaveajob is weak, I'm afraid. There is only one reason to not like JP or the way things are being negotiated and that's being weak on scope and anxious about fighting mgt. His loudest and most emphatic claims are to be hard nose, but he's in fact the opposite and trying to mask his shortcoming. The hard stance on scope does not need to change. We don't need to be "outvoted by UAL pilots' superior numbers" so we can "get a deal". That's the concessionist UAL mantra that has given away scope, lost a pension, furloughed thousands, and taken huge paycuts. I guess we're fortunate that so many at UAL really do understand what's going on. There are not many pilots like this Luckytohaveajob guy who want to go off the reservation. Nobody said this was going to be easy. It's hard, it will get worse, but it will be worth it in the end.

 

[johnsonrod]

The problem is your d-bagg CEO. Do you think this ambiguity and stalling would have happened with Bethune at the helm? No way. He had the leadership skills to persuade people and get things done. Smisek is too busy looking at himself in the mirror and fixing his beautiful hair... That guy is a grade-A dooooooosh. His next bonus should be based on getting an amicable agreement between the two pilot groups within 12 months (yeah, probably would never happen).

I personally believe the integration between UAL and CAL could be as bad or worse than America West & USAirways. It ain't gonna be pretty...

 

[eaglesview]

Luckytohaveajob is weak, I'm afraid. There is only one reason to not like JP or the way things are being negotiated and that's being weak on scope and anxious about fighting mgt. His loudest and most emphatic claims are to be hard nose, but he's in fact the opposite and trying to mask his shortcoming. The hard stance on scope does not need to change. We don't need to be "outvoted by UAL pilots' superior numbers" so we can "get a deal". That's the concessionist UAL mantra that has given away scope, lost a pension, furloughed thousands, and taken huge paycuts. I guess we're fortunate that so many at UAL really do understand what's going on. There are not many pilots like this Luckytohaveajob guy who want to go off the reservation. Nobody said this was going to be easy. It's hard, it will get worse, but it will be worth it in the end.

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

 

[Whine Lover]

Dear Boys and Girls,

I am here to tell you one G-Damn Thing:

After having retired from this Business, and then wanting to return for various reasons, I can tell you ALL with great certainty...NONE of the sniveling B.S. on ANY of these Forums amounts to one single piece of relevant KRAP.

Be thankful if you have your Health and a few good friends and family members left who still actually care about you...

I was a Union Rabble Rouser. I spent YEARS devoted to the B.S. that dominates these Boards.

I don't G.A.F about any of it anymore...It's just fun to go fly and have a beer with like minded individuals now and again.

Relax.

It's all gonna' happen exactly the way it's gonna' happen....your 2 cents really don't matter, and in less than a few short years nobody will care or remember anyway.



Love,

YKMKR

 

[Flopgut]

Good post Whine Lover....

 

[Flopgut]

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

I'm not saying we're better than you. Both of us have unsuitable contracts. What I am talking about is scope. It is the major issue at the moment and CAL happens to have better scope. When we start talking about work rules we'll defer to you.

The first line of BS off the website unitednegotiations.com is scope of 250 airplanes with 94 seats. It's the first item for a reason. Mgt can not entertain that idea at the bargaining table right now because they are not at all in the clear on the 70 seat airplanes. Mgt desperately wants these jets but they don't want to let us fly them. And they do not want to engage in any sort of normal negotiations, that might lead to them getting some version of what they want, because they will have to give in equally on something else. So they've done this website for you UAL guys (because you've got more numbers and, of late, are weaker on scope). At least one of your guys on here took the bait.

You have to understand they did this for a reason. It was a sloppy, ill-advised stunt and they are going to get spanked for it. But, more importantly, it suggest that something is going on at the table that has them panicked....

 

[eaglesview]

I'm not saying we're better than you. Both of us have unsuitable contracts. What I am talking about is scope. It is the major issue at the moment and CAL happens to have better scope. When we start talking about work rules we'll defer to you.

The first line of BS off the website unitednegotiations.com is scope of 250 airplanes with 94 seats. It's the first item for a reason. Mgt can not entertain that idea at the bargaining table right now because they are not at all in the clear on the 70 seat airplanes. Mgt desperately wants these jets but they don't want to let us fly them. And they do not want to engage in any sort of normal negotiations, that might lead to them getting some version of what they want, because they will have to give in equally on something else. So they've done this website for you UAL guys (because you've got more numbers and, of late, are weaker on scope). At least one of your guys on here took the bait.

You have to understand they did this for a reason. It was a sloppy, ill-advised stunt and they are going to get spanked for it. But, more importantly, it suggest that something is going on at the table that has them panicked....

You are correct. The section one of their "proposal" was laughable. We have seen it and had a good laugh at it just like you all did. No one I know has taken the bait. I always fall back on anyone can post on this website and doesn't even have to be a pilot.

As for your last paragragh I hope you are right.

 

[Dan Roman]

Good post Whine Lover....

plus one

 

[whatitdoing?]

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

Eagle, I haven't had one conversation in the last 6 months regarding anything to do with how much 'better' we as CAL pilots are and how we deserve more. I think the chest thumping and posturing that you're talking about was in the beginning and shortly after the merger announcement.
Every conversation I've had in a long time has been about how we need to unify our pilot groups together to fight the POS CEO of ours. The pace and progress of negotiations are unacceptable. Who cares about how much better or worse each other's contract is. They both suck and are killing us. Let's move on my friend.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Eagle, I haven't had one conversation in the last 6 months regarding anything to do with how much 'better' we as CAL pilots are and how we deserve more. I think the chest thumping and posturing that you're talking about was in the beginning and shortly after the merger announcement.
Every conversation I've had in a long time has been about how we need to unify our pilot groups together to fight the POS CEO of ours. The pace and progress of negotiations are unacceptable. Who cares about how much better or worse each other's contract is. They both suck and are killing us. Let's move on my friend.

Yes you are correct. We must stand as one pilot group to fight this POS regime. They are stealing from us everyday we do not have a contract. I'm ready to shut it down....are you?

 

[whatitdoing?]

I've been ready Yuppy. There's many of us that are just sick and tired of the abuse and lack of respect. It's time that they learn that we're valued employees that can either be a great asset or the source of their demise. It's really their choice. I love my job, but I can't take this abuse anymore. I'm ready to fight.........

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So in the "all or nothing" approach, how long is it going to take?

US Air is six years into it deadlock with no end in sight.

Each company is under a concessionary deal for the last four years plus. If it take four years to settle; and then the union caves on a four year deal plus; and if the following contract takes four years, 16 total years could easily elapse. 4 past, 4 to deal, 4 year deal, and then another 4 year to deal=16!

Who but a new hire can wait 16 years for restoration? Management can and happily would. So in the grand scheme of things who is winning? Management again!

The "It will take as long as it takes" approach is a CAL strategy. It was publicly discussed by the EWR Captain rep.

CAL is controlling the process to the determent of the entire group.