UAL air-to-air rant

[Flopgut]

There isn't any required merger training on the CAL side. This is Luckytohaveajob's chance to put his money where his mouth is and do what he is sugggesting the CAL pilots won't. Refuse to do the training! We'll see what happens.

I think I have Luckytohaveajob figured out. He's the opposite of what he suggests he is. He's scared and he's a wimp. The scope fight scares him because UAL ALPA already gave it up. Therefore he doesn't like Jay Pierce, doesn't like the way negotiations are going, and "wants a deal". He'd rather speak to the fact that UAL outnumbers CAL in total pilots and try to gain something in SLI.

If UAL and CAL ALPA prevail on scope we hire 2000 pilots. Everyone moves up in status. These airlines do not overlap and there will be plenty of great positions for everyone. If we cave on scope we furlough 2000 pilots. and we can kiss our assess goodbye. It's that simple.

 

[whatitdoing?]

There isn't any required merger training on the CAL side. This is Luckytohaveajob's chance to put his money where his mouth is and do what he is sugggesting the CAL pilots won't. Refuse to do the training! We'll see what happens.

I think I have Luckytohaveajob figured out. He's the opposite of what he suggests he is. He's scared and he's a wimp. The scope fight scares him because UAL ALPA already gave it up. Therefore he doesn't like Jay Pierce, doesn't like the way negotiations are going, and "wants a deal". He'd rather speak to the fact that UAL outnumbers CAL in total pilots and try to gain something in SLI.

If UAL and CAL ALPA prevail on scope we hire 2000 pilots. Everyone moves up in status. These airlines do not overlap and there will be plenty of great positions for everyone. If we cave on scope we furlough 2000 pilots. and we can kiss our assess goodbye. It's that simple.

Well said. That's the simple point!!! Why the f*** am I gonna sign away scope only to lose my job? It doesn't effect just me, but everyone on the list. Capt's will downgrade and fo's will be furloughed. Any questions?

 

[Metro752]

Watchout. The super senior Skywest and Republic guys are drooling over the mere thought of you guys caving on scope. I'm sure the super senior at all of regionals would be too. It's just easier to pick on non-union and teamster airlines...

 

[Flopgut]

Luckytohaveajob is weak, I'm afraid. There is only one reason to not like JP or the way things are being negotiated and that's being weak on scope and anxious about fighting mgt. His loudest and most emphatic claims are to be hard nose, but he's in fact the opposite and trying to mask his shortcoming. The hard stance on scope does not need to change. We don't need to be "outvoted by UAL pilots' superior numbers" so we can "get a deal". That's the concessionist UAL mantra that has given away scope, lost a pension, furloughed thousands, and taken huge paycuts. I guess we're fortunate that so many at UAL really do understand what's going on. There are not many pilots like this Luckytohaveajob guy who want to go off the reservation. Nobody said this was going to be easy. It's hard, it will get worse, but it will be worth it in the end.

 

[johnsonrod]

The problem is your d-bagg CEO. Do you think this ambiguity and stalling would have happened with Bethune at the helm? No way. He had the leadership skills to persuade people and get things done. Smisek is too busy looking at himself in the mirror and fixing his beautiful hair... That guy is a grade-A dooooooosh. His next bonus should be based on getting an amicable agreement between the two pilot groups within 12 months (yeah, probably would never happen).

I personally believe the integration between UAL and CAL could be as bad or worse than America West & USAirways. It ain't gonna be pretty...

 

[eaglesview]

Luckytohaveajob is weak, I'm afraid. There is only one reason to not like JP or the way things are being negotiated and that's being weak on scope and anxious about fighting mgt. His loudest and most emphatic claims are to be hard nose, but he's in fact the opposite and trying to mask his shortcoming. The hard stance on scope does not need to change. We don't need to be "outvoted by UAL pilots' superior numbers" so we can "get a deal". That's the concessionist UAL mantra that has given away scope, lost a pension, furloughed thousands, and taken huge paycuts. I guess we're fortunate that so many at UAL really do understand what's going on. There are not many pilots like this Luckytohaveajob guy who want to go off the reservation. Nobody said this was going to be easy. It's hard, it will get worse, but it will be worth it in the end.

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

 

[Whine Lover]

Dear Boys and Girls,

I am here to tell you one G-Damn Thing:

After having retired from this Business, and then wanting to return for various reasons, I can tell you ALL with great certainty...NONE of the sniveling B.S. on ANY of these Forums amounts to one single piece of relevant KRAP.

Be thankful if you have your Health and a few good friends and family members left who still actually care about you...

I was a Union Rabble Rouser. I spent YEARS devoted to the B.S. that dominates these Boards.

I don't G.A.F about any of it anymore...It's just fun to go fly and have a beer with like minded individuals now and again.

Relax.

It's all gonna' happen exactly the way it's gonna' happen....your 2 cents really don't matter, and in less than a few short years nobody will care or remember anyway.



Love,

YKMKR

 

[Flopgut]

Good post Whine Lover....

 

[Flopgut]

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

I'm not saying we're better than you. Both of us have unsuitable contracts. What I am talking about is scope. It is the major issue at the moment and CAL happens to have better scope. When we start talking about work rules we'll defer to you.

The first line of BS off the website unitednegotiations.com is scope of 250 airplanes with 94 seats. It's the first item for a reason. Mgt can not entertain that idea at the bargaining table right now because they are not at all in the clear on the 70 seat airplanes. Mgt desperately wants these jets but they don't want to let us fly them. And they do not want to engage in any sort of normal negotiations, that might lead to them getting some version of what they want, because they will have to give in equally on something else. So they've done this website for you UAL guys (because you've got more numbers and, of late, are weaker on scope). At least one of your guys on here took the bait.

You have to understand they did this for a reason. It was a sloppy, ill-advised stunt and they are going to get spanked for it. But, more importantly, it suggest that something is going on at the table that has them panicked....

 

[eaglesview]

I'm not saying we're better than you. Both of us have unsuitable contracts. What I am talking about is scope. It is the major issue at the moment and CAL happens to have better scope. When we start talking about work rules we'll defer to you.

The first line of BS off the website unitednegotiations.com is scope of 250 airplanes with 94 seats. It's the first item for a reason. Mgt can not entertain that idea at the bargaining table right now because they are not at all in the clear on the 70 seat airplanes. Mgt desperately wants these jets but they don't want to let us fly them. And they do not want to engage in any sort of normal negotiations, that might lead to them getting some version of what they want, because they will have to give in equally on something else. So they've done this website for you UAL guys (because you've got more numbers and, of late, are weaker on scope). At least one of your guys on here took the bait.

You have to understand they did this for a reason. It was a sloppy, ill-advised stunt and they are going to get spanked for it. But, more importantly, it suggest that something is going on at the table that has them panicked....

You are correct. The section one of their "proposal" was laughable. We have seen it and had a good laugh at it just like you all did. No one I know has taken the bait. I always fall back on anyone can post on this website and doesn't even have to be a pilot.

As for your last paragragh I hope you are right.

 

[Dan Roman]

Good post Whine Lover....

plus one

 

[whatitdoing?]

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

Eagle, I haven't had one conversation in the last 6 months regarding anything to do with how much 'better' we as CAL pilots are and how we deserve more. I think the chest thumping and posturing that you're talking about was in the beginning and shortly after the merger announcement.
Every conversation I've had in a long time has been about how we need to unify our pilot groups together to fight the POS CEO of ours. The pace and progress of negotiations are unacceptable. Who cares about how much better or worse each other's contract is. They both suck and are killing us. Let's move on my friend.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Eagle, I haven't had one conversation in the last 6 months regarding anything to do with how much 'better' we as CAL pilots are and how we deserve more. I think the chest thumping and posturing that you're talking about was in the beginning and shortly after the merger announcement.
Every conversation I've had in a long time has been about how we need to unify our pilot groups together to fight the POS CEO of ours. The pace and progress of negotiations are unacceptable. Who cares about how much better or worse each other's contract is. They both suck and are killing us. Let's move on my friend.

Yes you are correct. We must stand as one pilot group to fight this POS regime. They are stealing from us everyday we do not have a contract. I'm ready to shut it down....are you?

 

[whatitdoing?]

I've been ready Yuppy. There's many of us that are just sick and tired of the abuse and lack of respect. It's time that they learn that we're valued employees that can either be a great asset or the source of their demise. It's really their choice. I love my job, but I can't take this abuse anymore. I'm ready to fight.........

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So in the "all or nothing" approach, how long is it going to take?

US Air is six years into it deadlock with no end in sight.

Each company is under a concessionary deal for the last four years plus. If it take four years to settle; and then the union caves on a four year deal plus; and if the following contract takes four years, 16 total years could easily elapse. 4 past, 4 to deal, 4 year deal, and then another 4 year to deal=16!

Who but a new hire can wait 16 years for restoration? Management can and happily would. So in the grand scheme of things who is winning? Management again!

The "It will take as long as it takes" approach is a CAL strategy. It was publicly discussed by the EWR Captain rep.

CAL is controlling the process to the determent of the entire group.