UAL air-to-air rant

[eaglesview]

Luckytohaveajob is weak, I'm afraid. There is only one reason to not like JP or the way things are being negotiated and that's being weak on scope and anxious about fighting mgt. His loudest and most emphatic claims are to be hard nose, but he's in fact the opposite and trying to mask his shortcoming. The hard stance on scope does not need to change. We don't need to be "outvoted by UAL pilots' superior numbers" so we can "get a deal". That's the concessionist UAL mantra that has given away scope, lost a pension, furloughed thousands, and taken huge paycuts. I guess we're fortunate that so many at UAL really do understand what's going on. There are not many pilots like this Luckytohaveajob guy who want to go off the reservation. Nobody said this was going to be easy. It's hard, it will get worse, but it will be worth it in the end.

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

 

[Whine Lover]

Dear Boys and Girls,

I am here to tell you one G-Damn Thing:

After having retired from this Business, and then wanting to return for various reasons, I can tell you ALL with great certainty...NONE of the sniveling B.S. on ANY of these Forums amounts to one single piece of relevant KRAP.

Be thankful if you have your Health and a few good friends and family members left who still actually care about you...

I was a Union Rabble Rouser. I spent YEARS devoted to the B.S. that dominates these Boards.

I don't G.A.F about any of it anymore...It's just fun to go fly and have a beer with like minded individuals now and again.

Relax.

It's all gonna' happen exactly the way it's gonna' happen....your 2 cents really don't matter, and in less than a few short years nobody will care or remember anyway.



Love,

YKMKR

 

[Flopgut]

Good post Whine Lover....

 

[Flopgut]

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

I'm not saying we're better than you. Both of us have unsuitable contracts. What I am talking about is scope. It is the major issue at the moment and CAL happens to have better scope. When we start talking about work rules we'll defer to you.

The first line of BS off the website unitednegotiations.com is scope of 250 airplanes with 94 seats. It's the first item for a reason. Mgt can not entertain that idea at the bargaining table right now because they are not at all in the clear on the 70 seat airplanes. Mgt desperately wants these jets but they don't want to let us fly them. And they do not want to engage in any sort of normal negotiations, that might lead to them getting some version of what they want, because they will have to give in equally on something else. So they've done this website for you UAL guys (because you've got more numbers and, of late, are weaker on scope). At least one of your guys on here took the bait.

You have to understand they did this for a reason. It was a sloppy, ill-advised stunt and they are going to get spanked for it. But, more importantly, it suggest that something is going on at the table that has them panicked....

 

[eaglesview]

I'm not saying we're better than you. Both of us have unsuitable contracts. What I am talking about is scope. It is the major issue at the moment and CAL happens to have better scope. When we start talking about work rules we'll defer to you.

The first line of BS off the website unitednegotiations.com is scope of 250 airplanes with 94 seats. It's the first item for a reason. Mgt can not entertain that idea at the bargaining table right now because they are not at all in the clear on the 70 seat airplanes. Mgt desperately wants these jets but they don't want to let us fly them. And they do not want to engage in any sort of normal negotiations, that might lead to them getting some version of what they want, because they will have to give in equally on something else. So they've done this website for you UAL guys (because you've got more numbers and, of late, are weaker on scope). At least one of your guys on here took the bait.

You have to understand they did this for a reason. It was a sloppy, ill-advised stunt and they are going to get spanked for it. But, more importantly, it suggest that something is going on at the table that has them panicked....

You are correct. The section one of their "proposal" was laughable. We have seen it and had a good laugh at it just like you all did. No one I know has taken the bait. I always fall back on anyone can post on this website and doesn't even have to be a pilot.

As for your last paragragh I hope you are right.

 

[Dan Roman]

Good post Whine Lover....

plus one

 

[whatitdoing?]

I agree with your stance. I do not think the vast majority of UAL pilots want to cave on scope again. I am getting sick of the mightier than thow attitude. You held scope.. Congrats. Look at your work rules. You guys like to make snide comments about pay but never seem to want to concede that work rules are part of the pay package. Also, and this is big, you did not have the bankruptcy gun pointed at your head. We did. Not only that we were the first. Delta and other carriers, had the advantage of looking at how bad we got screwed and faired a bit better. That is not really surprising.

This "we are better than you" attitude because we got this or did that is not going to help a damn thing. Your contract sucks, our contract sucks. The combined contract better be better in many areas. Thats the end all. I don't give a crap how big we are or any of that other crap other folks like to harp on. We could all work for the largest, lowest paying airline in the world unless we pull in the same direction.. JUST SAY NO

Eagle, I haven't had one conversation in the last 6 months regarding anything to do with how much 'better' we as CAL pilots are and how we deserve more. I think the chest thumping and posturing that you're talking about was in the beginning and shortly after the merger announcement.
Every conversation I've had in a long time has been about how we need to unify our pilot groups together to fight the POS CEO of ours. The pace and progress of negotiations are unacceptable. Who cares about how much better or worse each other's contract is. They both suck and are killing us. Let's move on my friend.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Eagle, I haven't had one conversation in the last 6 months regarding anything to do with how much 'better' we as CAL pilots are and how we deserve more. I think the chest thumping and posturing that you're talking about was in the beginning and shortly after the merger announcement.
Every conversation I've had in a long time has been about how we need to unify our pilot groups together to fight the POS CEO of ours. The pace and progress of negotiations are unacceptable. Who cares about how much better or worse each other's contract is. They both suck and are killing us. Let's move on my friend.

Yes you are correct. We must stand as one pilot group to fight this POS regime. They are stealing from us everyday we do not have a contract. I'm ready to shut it down....are you?

 

[whatitdoing?]

I've been ready Yuppy. There's many of us that are just sick and tired of the abuse and lack of respect. It's time that they learn that we're valued employees that can either be a great asset or the source of their demise. It's really their choice. I love my job, but I can't take this abuse anymore. I'm ready to fight.........

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So in the "all or nothing" approach, how long is it going to take?

US Air is six years into it deadlock with no end in sight.

Each company is under a concessionary deal for the last four years plus. If it take four years to settle; and then the union caves on a four year deal plus; and if the following contract takes four years, 16 total years could easily elapse. 4 past, 4 to deal, 4 year deal, and then another 4 year to deal=16!

Who but a new hire can wait 16 years for restoration? Management can and happily would. So in the grand scheme of things who is winning? Management again!

The "It will take as long as it takes" approach is a CAL strategy. It was publicly discussed by the EWR Captain rep.

CAL is controlling the process to the determent of the entire group.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I am not weak at all but practical. Who has 16 years to wait for the 2000 standards? Plus by the time 2021 rolls around 2000 standards will have been eaten alive by inflation.

We need a deal. We need improvement. We need a two year deal. And we need avenues for improvement.

Side letter deals would be a start. All agreement in principle should be immediately implemented. And any conflicting issues should also be immediately resolved. If a training issue conflicts with a scheduling issue the improved issue should decide the deficiency.

SCOPE should be left as is and dealt with at the end. None of the SCOPE contract expire till 2015. Are both groups willing to wait till 2015 to sign a bad deal and then live with it, and then try and get another deal?

 

[jenks]

Luckytohaveajob you sound desperate for a contract regardless to how good or bad it is. You need to relax and let the process take place.

 

[Deerkiller]

I am not weak at all but practical. Who has 16 years to wait for the 2000 standards? Plus by the time 2021 rolls around 2000 standards will have been eaten alive by inflation.

We need a deal. We need improvement. We need a two year deal. And we need avenues for improvement.

Side letter deals would be a start. All agreement in principle should be immediately implemented. And any conflicting issues should also be immediately resolved. If a training issue conflicts with a scheduling issue the improved issue should decide the deficiency.

SCOPE should be left as is and dealt with at the end. None of the SCOPE contract expire till 2015. Are both groups willing to wait till 2015 to sign a bad deal and then live with it, and then try and get another deal?

Side letters? YHGTBSM

Don't worry guys, I officially donate my vote to offset lucky's. This is ridiculous.

Side letters? uke:

 

[bizicmo]

sounds like someone wants to retire and wants some sort of retro to bail. Get it done now so I can leave.

 

[Flopgut]

Lucky: I think you have a problem with any and all of us that have drawn a line in the sand and will not accept another contract that is in any way concessionary. There are plenty of those pilots on both sides of this merger, so blaming CAL pilots is a waste of time and diminishes unity. I think you need to get a full update from a rep on where we are truly at in this process. Our collective position is too good to be in a rush. If you are really worried about where we'll all be in 16 years then you want to let this specific contract take whatever time it needs.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Lucky: I think you have a problem with any and all of us that have drawn a line in the sand and will not accept another contract that is in any way concessionary. There are plenty of those pilots on both sides of this merger, so blaming CAL pilots is a waste of time and diminishes unity. I think you need to get a full update from a rep on where we are truly at in this process. Our collective position is too good to be in a rush. If you are really worried about where we'll all be in 16 years then you want to let this specific contract take whatever time it needs.

What he said.........