UA "national seniority list"

[Splert]

Ok Fubi, here's another scenario for you....

Airline A is doing well and has just given a new contract to its pilots with a large raise. Airlines B through Z are now well underpaid so many senior pilots from those airlines decide to interview at airline A so that they can get an immediate pay raise. Since their seniority is now portable, they can do this with no penalty.

Seniority is not portable and will never be unless Airline A plus B - Z agree or Congress creates a law that creates seniority.

Why would airline A agree to hire a new hire and pay him 12 year longevity?

They wouldn't and since seniority is an negotiated right not an imposed or natural right you guys all smoking the same thing as Spicoli.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Seniority is not portable and will never be unless Airline A plus B - Z agree or Congress creates a law that creates seniority.

Why would airline A agree to hire a new hire and pay him 12 year longevity?

They wouldn't and since seniority is an negotiated right not an imposed or natural right you guys all smoking the same thing as Spicoli.

Perhaps you should read my previous posts on this thread...since you and I seem to be in agreement.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm interested.

If your an airline pilot and your company is standing before the BK judge, what steps do you take to prevent the bailout of your management.

Just so I have this these steps handy, give me as much detail as possible.

Thanks!

Sure- you set up a system where pilots aren't married to their company by seniority- that's what this entire conversation is about man- management industry wide know that we have to start completely over at the bottom if we change companies- so it ties our hands under any financial duress- we need our airlines to last... Whereas mgmt... Ehh... They can grab the next job and maybe even get a payraise. No employee group in any profession, save SBO, is so financially tied to their company as we are-

a NSL solves this problem-

it is negotiated- it would have to be a priority for the union and all MEC's would need to look farther down the road- make it strike- worthy- every other wage earner in the US thinks we are dumb for how we've set up our career- and it's leverage we shouldn't be giving our companies.

 

[Mr.B]

Sure- you set up a system where pilots aren't married to their company by seniority- that's what this entire conversation is about man- management industry wide know that we have to start completely over at the bottom if we change companies- so it ties our hands under any financial duress- we need our airlines to last... Whereas mgmt... Ehh... They can grab the next job and maybe even get a payraise. No employee group in any profession, save SBO, is so financially tied to their company as we are-

a NSL solves this problem-

it is negotiated- it would have to be a priority for the union and all MEC's would need to look farther down the road- make it strike- worthy- every other wage earner in the US thinks we are dumb for how we've set up our career- and it's leverage we shouldn't be giving our companies.

Well despite your writing style, I think I agree with this. (See earlier post within this thread.)

However, as previously inquired, what does this have to do with BK court?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Of course it is. What is amazing is that it was the UAL MEC that honchoed deleting "DOH" from the ALPA merger/frag policy the first time they tried to merge with USAir.

Ironic, isn't it?

WRONG!!!! But, don't feel bad, as it is a commonly held misconception.

DOH was removed from ALPA merger policy in the Spring of 1991!

And, a 'Gold Star' for anyone who can name the event and group that prompted it???? Anyone??

For what its worth.

PD

 

[Dan Roman]

Delta PanAm?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Delta PanAm?[/QUOTE]

BINGO, We have a Winner and that was quick. A Gold Star for Dan!!

The ALPA met on a quickly called weekend meeting, and took a 'sharpie' to the line; 'Seniority lists shall be integrated within ALPA merger policy by Date of Hire.' (not the exact wording, but close, used to have the original copy somewhere. But, that is all they did was take a sharpie through 'one line.')

Within a few weeks, guess what, Delta announced that they were buying the North Atlantic Routes and Frankfurt Hub of Pan Am. What are the 'odds'!!!! Then those Pan Am guys were 'kicked in the teeth' And, the Funny thing is that even if Every Pan Am guy was at the top of the Delta list, pretty much ALL would have been GONE in a mere 2-3 yrs!!!

ALPA merger policy was changed, not out of some kinda All encompassing 'Fairness and Equality' but just changed by one pilot group, just so they could 'screw' another pilot group for their own benefit. That's OUR Profession. Kinda makes me PROUD, or NOT.

Just my thoughts, even if i was #1 at delta at that time, I would have gladly let them have their 'rightful' seniority and fly out the last 2-3 yrs of their long careers, doing what they Always did and Flown; out of simple 'Respect'!!! But, that just me.

For what it worth.

PD

Now back to your normal, mindless FI rants.....

 

[Fubijaakr]

I stand corrected!

 

[bizicmo]

instead of creating a NSL which would be difficult to do at best, why don't unions negotiate a payscale that isn't so wide ranging. Instead of making first year $30/hour and 12year 100/hour just compress those numbers, to something like $65 first year and $85 12th year. or create a dual payscale. A new hire would have a one time chance to decide if they want to be on the $30/$100 scale or the $65/$85 scale. I noticed in the recent contract proposal to the company at CAL had something like this with the retirement portion. I think there were 3 different options each had different percentages associated with the A fund and b fund.

 

[eaglesview]

instead of creating a NSL which would be difficult to do at best, why don't unions negotiate a payscale that isn't so wide ranging. Instead of making first year $30/hour and 12year 100/hour just compress those numbers, to something like $65 first year and $85 12th year. or create a dual payscale. A new hire would have a one time chance to decide if they want to be on the $30/$100 scale or the $65/$85 scale. I noticed in the recent contract proposal to the company at CAL had something like this with the retirement portion. I think there were 3 different options each had different percentages associated with the A fund and b fund.

Please tell us you are joking. Top out at $85.00/ an hour? At that point the job is all yours.

 

[NotTooBad]

I don't understand. Why would the airline hire a person with 20 years seniority to begin with? I would think they would do better to pay a recent college grad with no experience 30K a year to learn to fly and buy all of his ratings. Only prerequisite to the job would be NO seniority number.......

Am I missing something?

 

[bizicmo]

Please tell us you are joking. Top out at $85.00/ an hour? At that point the job is all yours.

look i didn't go into deep mathematical research in coming up with those numbers, i just picked two arbitrary numbers that were higher then 30 and less then 100. The point was to create at less wide ranging payscale.
Are you familiar with componding interest and that money made at the front end plus interest will make up for less money at the back end? Are you one of the individuals that instead of saving your whole life is just going to rely on your last 5 years of pay to get you through the rest of life. Some people that get hired at a major will never see the 12year scale and could care less where it tops out. This thread was created to discuss ways of lessing the blow if a change in airline was to occur and that is what my idea addresses. If you don't want to top out at $85 well then start at $30, i suggested a possiblility of choosing between 2 different scales. Now thank you for your unconstructive criticism, NEXT!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

When in the last 25 years has the other pilot group (CAL) not been taken advantage of. Contract after contract, issue after issue, it all seems to be reactionary and behind the eight ball.

CAL is always behind the 8 ball. Always has and always will be.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Q: At CAL how many over age 60 pilots kept their jobs prior to the age 65 change?

A: Everyone management liked.

The company said the law did not apply. The union said it would study the problem. And hundreds of them kept their jobs being shuttled to training and then back. CAL even had an over 60 chief pilot who duties included flying the line but illegally kept his job when he was over 60 and the law had not changed at the time.

Every other company in America followed the law and sent their over 60 pilots golfing the day they turned 60 before the law change. CAL kept them and told the union to pack sand.

POINT BEING CAL ALPA ALWAYS FOLDS REGARDLESS OF THE ISSUE!

 

[ableone]

Delta PanAm?

BINGO, We have a Winner and that was quick. A Gold Star for Dan!!

Then those Pan Am guys were 'kicked in the teeth' And, the Funny thing is that even if Every Pan Am guy was at the top of the Delta list, pretty much ALL would have been GONE in a mere 2-3 yrs!!!



For what it worth.

PD

Now back to your normal, mindless FI rants.....

You are forgetting or leaving out one very important event. Delta wanted Pan Am's modern Airbus fleet and the pilots who flew them. They were uninterested in the Classic 747s and the grey beards who flew them.

Delta took pilots from the middle and bottom of the list who were, in descending order;
1. currently qualified on the A-300.
2. formerly qualified on the Airbus.
3. Already slated for training on the bus.

Reportedly, one Pan Am pilot who thought he was slated for a bus class, but was not, chained himself to a simulator. The lifeboats were pulling away.

Pan Am was going down and your Pan Am seniority was meaningless. The golden ticket to a second chance career was time on the fleet that Delta was acquiring.

Therefore merger policy would not have made that big of a difference as the Pan Am pilots who made it to Delta were not at the top of PanAm's list to begin with.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Don't forget about the PanAm pilots that got full DOH seniority at UAL when UAL bought the L1011's to get the routes! Apparently, UAL honored DOH then.

 

[ableone]

Don't forget about the PanAm pilots that got full DOH seniority at UAL when UAL bought the L1011's to get the routes! Apparently, UAL honored DOH then.

Pan Am L1011s?

 

[eaglesview]

Yes L1011's also 747's came with the deal.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Pan Am L1011s?

Yes, as Eagle said, Pan Am has (11) L-1011-500s and (9) B-747SPs (think those are the right #s) that only flew the Pacific routes and all went to UAL with the routes. UAL contracted out the Mx on the 1011s and only flew them for about 1 yr. or so, until they could get 747s to replace them. UAL was always a Pratt company and hated RR (only the DC-10s and Buses don't have Pratts). A few of the PanAm -500s later ended up a DAL.

Also, Yes, those Pan Am pilots who went to UAL with the Pac. routes got DOH, as that was some years before merger policy changed. Guess UAL did not have as much 'pull' with alpa EB as DAL, or at the time, a little more respect for DOH, Longevity/Seniority, etc, or maybe they 'realized' the real Longterm value to UAL, and total UAL pilots ended up flying them anyway, once the PanAm guys were gone. Whatever 'they' want to Rant about, as one poster said earlier that DAL took the Airbii and thus 'mid level' pilots. Well, at the time, I think the 'average age' of a Pan Am pilot at the time, was like 57 1/2 yrs. old. So, senior was 'old' mid level was 'old' and for the most part junior was also 'old' Just like at UAL, most if not ALL were Gone in a few years, and others would have 'inherited' the Routes and seats anyway. But, most pilots are 'me, me, me' and 'now, now, now'

For what it worth, now Rant away guys. Bye.

PD

 

[michael707767]

Don't forget about the PanAm pilots that got full DOH seniority at UAL when UAL bought the L1011's to get the routes! Apparently, UAL honored DOH then.

You bring nothing but L1011s and 747s to the table and you will get DOH too.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

You bring nothing but L1011s and 747s to the table and you will get DOH too.

Promise? :laugh:

 

[whymeworry?]

While I agree the concept of a NSL looks good on paper, it will never work in reality. The only way to consider such an idea is to grandfather in the new pilots being created today. Other than that, won't work

UAL is laden with loads of debt attached to very high interest rates. CAL won't be merging with that liability any time soon so everyone just relax. Now if they use the recently high stock price to issue equity and pay off that debt, then the dynamics of the merger game will change. But until that happens, the "virtual merger" is both companies MO for the moment.

As one poster said, none of us will decide how this turns out, arbitrators and the courts will. In the meantime, lets both focus our efforts on getting the contracts we deserve.

Oh, and I'm all for fences; 10yr+ IMO.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

"Career Expectations/Progression". What a joke, there is NO SUCH THING, in the unregulated, recessionary, post-911 airline world.
At the regional, I "expected" to hold jet Captain in my hometown, but growth at the '"other" regional partner, fleet retirements, and phony bankruptcy killed that.
At UAL, I was told they were hiring 300 after me. That went to being in the last class, to the first of 1400+ furloughs. Now I work in a friggin shopping mall.....

Expectations? very specious in this business. Same word of warning to those building ratings....

The only thing I "expect" now is to be stapled to the bottom of any merger.
What was that Menken quote? Raise the flag and slit throats?.....

Here ya go!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Yes.

Lets say you're in the bricklayers and tile setters union. Company A hired you as an apprentice and eventually you gained enough experience to make journeyman with an associated payscale.

Now you leave company A after 5 years for whatever reason and company B hires you. You go to B at 5th year pay, but you go to the bottom of the seniority list. From a pilots standpoint, whats wrong with that? The new guys are not taking anything away from those more senior. Some of you whiners need to realize this.

Nowhere has it been said the former A employee is going to take your seat/domicile/vacation so relax.

But as with any industry, construction or airlines, there are management shenanigans.

You have touched the very essence of the national seniority list. Pilots have the very keys to the lockbox but are so selfish and narrow minded that they will only agree to a list that will give them advantages over another potential list member. management know this and uses this to their advantage daily.
Rest assured, nothing will change, except management will continue to golden parachute to their private islands in the Bahamas,while some pilots feed their kids with unemployment checks and food stamps.
PBR