UA "national seniority list"

[Dan Roman]

Sorry if I am going to look stupid here but...... are they saying if an Airline shuts down and they go to another carrier they get merged in ahead of active pilots or just keep a higher pay rate?? It didn't seem to clear to me.

 

[waveflyer]

Wrong. An NSL would only apply in the case of a merger/acquisition. If you want to voluntarily change airlines, you maintain your NSL number, but you go to the bottom of the airline list you voluntarily jump to.

Why?
An NSL could be implemented in a 1000 different ways. Regardless of UALs motives it's a concept that should be studied -

there needs to be a solution to the problem that mgmts nationwide are using our seniority system against us- they know that we'd give up the whole contract to avoid starting over at 1st year pay somewhere else- and it hurts us at the bargaining table

 

[eaglesview]

Why?
An NSL could be implemented in a 1000 different ways. Regardless of UALs motives it's a concept that should be studied -

there needs to be a solution to the problem that mgmts nationwide are using our seniority system against us- they know that we'd give up the whole contract to avoid starting over at 1st year pay somewhere else- and it hurts us at the bargaining table

Thanks for the compliment but do you really think we (UAL) control what ALPA does. I don't think they give a crap about us, we are now outnumbered by the regionals.

 

[waveflyer]

Just responding to all the other previous posts saying the NSL subject is just a scam by UAL mec now that they are staring down a merger-

my point is that an NSL has merit regardless of any one airline's current scenario-

if there is a pilot group out there that doesn't think they could be panam or braniff or eastern- you're off your rocker- just don't box in how an NSL would work into whatever you have in your head- there are literally a dozen ways to implement an NSL on top of a dozen alternatives- don't limit it- support it being studied...

 

[waveflyer]

Unless of course you like bailing out your management every bankruptcy

 

[Splert]

Why?
An NSL could be implemented in a 1000 different ways.

...and every airline would have to agree to negotiate the same EXACT seniority contract language in each of those "1000 different ways".

Seniority is not imposed on an airline by a union it is negotiated with the airline.

The airline has no interest in extending seniority to pilots it did hire in those "1000 different ways".

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Ok Fubi, here's another scenario for you....

Airline A is doing well and has just given a new contract to its pilots with a large raise. Airlines B through Z are now well underpaid so many senior pilots from those airlines decide to interview at airline A so that they can get an immediate pay raise. Since their seniority is now portable, they can do this with no penalty.

 

[Turtle21]

One little problem with ALPA is in the organization itself. These critical decisions are made by an executive committee not by the rank and file. Any decision to change anything regarding seniority should go out for membership ratification.

The person missing in this equation is the line pilot.

Valid point.

And with ALPO, always will.

 

[Turtle21]

It would have to have strong leadership at ALPA national- but it could be done

Oxymoron of the decade.

ALPA "strong" leadership is focused on national dues generation, not pilot seniority concerns. Alas.

 

[Mr.B]

Unless of course you like bailing out your management every bankruptcy

I'm interested.

If your an airline pilot and your company is standing before the BK judge, what steps do you take to prevent the bailout of your management.

Just so I have this these steps handy, give me as much detail as possible.

Thanks!

 

[Splert]

Ok Fubi, here's another scenario for you....

Airline A is doing well and has just given a new contract to its pilots with a large raise. Airlines B through Z are now well underpaid so many senior pilots from those airlines decide to interview at airline A so that they can get an immediate pay raise. Since their seniority is now portable, they can do this with no penalty.

Seniority is not portable and will never be unless Airline A plus B - Z agree or Congress creates a law that creates seniority.

Why would airline A agree to hire a new hire and pay him 12 year longevity?

They wouldn't and since seniority is an negotiated right not an imposed or natural right you guys all smoking the same thing as Spicoli.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Seniority is not portable and will never be unless Airline A plus B - Z agree or Congress creates a law that creates seniority.

Why would airline A agree to hire a new hire and pay him 12 year longevity?

They wouldn't and since seniority is an negotiated right not an imposed or natural right you guys all smoking the same thing as Spicoli.

Perhaps you should read my previous posts on this thread...since you and I seem to be in agreement.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm interested.

If your an airline pilot and your company is standing before the BK judge, what steps do you take to prevent the bailout of your management.

Just so I have this these steps handy, give me as much detail as possible.

Thanks!

Sure- you set up a system where pilots aren't married to their company by seniority- that's what this entire conversation is about man- management industry wide know that we have to start completely over at the bottom if we change companies- so it ties our hands under any financial duress- we need our airlines to last... Whereas mgmt... Ehh... They can grab the next job and maybe even get a payraise. No employee group in any profession, save SBO, is so financially tied to their company as we are-

a NSL solves this problem-

it is negotiated- it would have to be a priority for the union and all MEC's would need to look farther down the road- make it strike- worthy- every other wage earner in the US thinks we are dumb for how we've set up our career- and it's leverage we shouldn't be giving our companies.

 

[Mr.B]

Sure- you set up a system where pilots aren't married to their company by seniority- that's what this entire conversation is about man- management industry wide know that we have to start completely over at the bottom if we change companies- so it ties our hands under any financial duress- we need our airlines to last... Whereas mgmt... Ehh... They can grab the next job and maybe even get a payraise. No employee group in any profession, save SBO, is so financially tied to their company as we are-

a NSL solves this problem-

it is negotiated- it would have to be a priority for the union and all MEC's would need to look farther down the road- make it strike- worthy- every other wage earner in the US thinks we are dumb for how we've set up our career- and it's leverage we shouldn't be giving our companies.

Well despite your writing style, I think I agree with this. (See earlier post within this thread.)

However, as previously inquired, what does this have to do with BK court?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Of course it is. What is amazing is that it was the UAL MEC that honchoed deleting "DOH" from the ALPA merger/frag policy the first time they tried to merge with USAir.

Ironic, isn't it?

WRONG!!!! But, don't feel bad, as it is a commonly held misconception.

DOH was removed from ALPA merger policy in the Spring of 1991!

And, a 'Gold Star' for anyone who can name the event and group that prompted it???? Anyone??

For what its worth.

PD

 

[Dan Roman]

Delta PanAm?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Delta PanAm?[/QUOTE]

BINGO, We have a Winner and that was quick. A Gold Star for Dan!!

The ALPA met on a quickly called weekend meeting, and took a 'sharpie' to the line; 'Seniority lists shall be integrated within ALPA merger policy by Date of Hire.' (not the exact wording, but close, used to have the original copy somewhere. But, that is all they did was take a sharpie through 'one line.')

Within a few weeks, guess what, Delta announced that they were buying the North Atlantic Routes and Frankfurt Hub of Pan Am. What are the 'odds'!!!! Then those Pan Am guys were 'kicked in the teeth' And, the Funny thing is that even if Every Pan Am guy was at the top of the Delta list, pretty much ALL would have been GONE in a mere 2-3 yrs!!!

ALPA merger policy was changed, not out of some kinda All encompassing 'Fairness and Equality' but just changed by one pilot group, just so they could 'screw' another pilot group for their own benefit. That's OUR Profession. Kinda makes me PROUD, or NOT.

Just my thoughts, even if i was #1 at delta at that time, I would have gladly let them have their 'rightful' seniority and fly out the last 2-3 yrs of their long careers, doing what they Always did and Flown; out of simple 'Respect'!!! But, that just me.

For what it worth.

PD

Now back to your normal, mindless FI rants.....

 

[Fubijaakr]

I stand corrected!

 

[bizicmo]

instead of creating a NSL which would be difficult to do at best, why don't unions negotiate a payscale that isn't so wide ranging. Instead of making first year $30/hour and 12year 100/hour just compress those numbers, to something like $65 first year and $85 12th year. or create a dual payscale. A new hire would have a one time chance to decide if they want to be on the $30/$100 scale or the $65/$85 scale. I noticed in the recent contract proposal to the company at CAL had something like this with the retirement portion. I think there were 3 different options each had different percentages associated with the A fund and b fund.

 

[eaglesview]

instead of creating a NSL which would be difficult to do at best, why don't unions negotiate a payscale that isn't so wide ranging. Instead of making first year $30/hour and 12year 100/hour just compress those numbers, to something like $65 first year and $85 12th year. or create a dual payscale. A new hire would have a one time chance to decide if they want to be on the $30/$100 scale or the $65/$85 scale. I noticed in the recent contract proposal to the company at CAL had something like this with the retirement portion. I think there were 3 different options each had different percentages associated with the A fund and b fund.

Please tell us you are joking. Top out at $85.00/ an hour? At that point the job is all yours.