U/AWA - AA/TWA lesson

[eaglefly]

I think it's now abundantly clear that failing carriers should not be purchased by other carriers. IF they are going to fail, they should be allowed their destiny - faliure.

An airline should stand on it's own feet or let the marketplace insure it doesn't stand. If it does indeed fail, the ASSETS can be purchased by other carriers without the hassle of integration squabbles and their will be no "expectation" demands.

If your carrier is solvent, you'll never worry about this. If your carrier isn't, you'll also never worry about this as you'll have no "expectations" from being rescued.

Survival of the fittest !

 

[AA717driver]

Yeah. That, and you shouldn't stay at a commuter waiting for the "promise" of a job at a major... TC

 

[eaglefly]

Yeah. That, and you shouldn't stay at a commuter waiting for the "promise" of a job at a major... TC

I agree.

I'm happy driving to work, making $125K/year and having a life. The 7th year S80 F/O sitting RSV and commuting with 11 days off per month and an anus the size of the Lincoln tunnel gets my sympathy.

He was none to happy with his life and told me so repeatedly as I rode his jumpseat the other day. The "no growth" strategy AA is persuing has him thinking other airlines...............starting over at 39.

His captain (TWA guy - who didn't make all that much more than me for 2.5 times as many seats) was even more disgruntled.

They treated me fine (likewise), but their world was not attractive.

 

[waveflyer]

That's nice- but what can you do? CEO's are looking for deals - where inside the details they can get a windfall-- once the parachute is there-- who cares about the company??-- except for us, b/c we are married to it-- no other professional in any industry would be so scared to have to change companies. No other airline personnel are as attached by seniority as us. Everyone else's experience counts for something. They are using our seniority system against us and that will continue while it's in the current form- -- What are the benefits to what we have now? Is there no other way?

 

[pkober]

I agree.

I'm happy driving to work, making $125K/year and having a life. The 7th year S80 F/O sitting RSV and commuting with 11 days off per month and an anus the size of the Lincoln tunnel gets my sympathy.

He was none to happy with his life and told me so repeatedly as I rode his jumpseat the other day. The "no growth" strategy AA is persuing has him thinking other airlines...............starting over at 39.

His captain (TWA guy - who didn't make all that much more than me for 2.5 times as many seats) was even more disgruntled.

They treated me fine (likewise), but their world was not attractive.

Don't worry rationalizing your current place in life is healthy. You're probably one of these guys at a regional who can't leave (DUI, no college degree, whatever) and just sit around and talk about how shi++y everyone else's lives are.

You are looking at the world through a straw. Regionals exist only at the whim of the majors. The majors are looking to replace the 50 seat RJ's. Hopefully ,the pilot groups at the majors will stop allowing any anymore jets going to the regionals. If, and when, that happens the regionals will "die on the vine". If that happens than please post here again about how it's just survival of the fittest.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The majors are looking to replace the 50 seat RJ's. Hopefully ,the pilot groups at the majors will stop allowing any anymore jets going to the regionals. If, and when, that happens the regionals will "die on the vine". If that happens than please post here again about how it's just survival of the fittest.

Tell that to 90% of the "regionals" who now operate 70 and 90 seat "RJs".

Seriously.

MESA
Sheetaki
GoJet
ASA
Comair
Did that NWA Compass thing ever start?
REpublic
Eagle
Did I miss any?

Did Lakes get jets yet?

 

[eaglefly]

Don't worry rationalizing your current place in life is healthy. You're probably one of these guys at a regional who can't leave (DUI, no college degree, whatever) and just sit around and talk about how shi++y everyone else's lives are.

You are looking at the world through a straw. Regionals exist only at the whim of the majors. The majors are looking to replace the 50 seat RJ's. Hopefully ,the pilot groups at the majors will stop allowing any anymore jets going to the regionals. If, and when, that happens the regionals will "die on the vine". If that happens than please post here again about how it's just survival of the fittest.

LOL !

Regionals aren't going anywhere soon, although you'd be happy if they'd disappear tommorrow.

I can think of a hundred cities/towns that will need air transportation and are too small to be fed by a 737 with any frequency. Yes, the 50-seater is dead. The 70-seater is not and will be the future. Maybe larger turboprops too.

BTW, none of your hypotheticals apply to me, as I'm just happy where I am and not asking for anything you have. Mnay pilots fly corporate for $100K/year on a GIV and most inside and outside aviation would say that's a respectable life.

The sun doesn't rise and set in your cockpit, nor does my world revolve around it. That goes for whether it's a 757 or a slowtation. My straw has worked perfectly for 20 years.

I guess that pisses you off.

My point was not MY job, but the futility of mergers/aquisitions in this industry for pilots...........at least until a mainline demigod hijacked it for another opportunity to crap on a regional pilot.

Enjoy your career........................I'm enjoying mine.

 

[Kharma Police]

LOL !

Regionals aren't going anywhere soon, although you'd be happy if they'd disappear tommorrow.

I can think of a hundred cities/towns that will need air transportation and are too small to be fed by a 737 with any frequency. Yes, the 50-seater is dead. The 70-seater is not and will be the future. Maybe larger turboprops too.

The 50-seater makes up the majority of most regional fleets. It has been proven that the smaller RJ is not a profitable aircraft. Which aircraft do you think would be a viable replacement for the 50 if most regional’s are scope restricted on the number of 70 seaters?

 

[eaglefly]

LOL !

Regionals aren't going anywhere soon, although you'd be happy if they'd disappear tommorrow.

I can think of a hundred cities/towns that will need air transportation and are too small to be fed by a 737 with any frequency. Yes, the 50-seater is dead. The 70-seater is not and will be the future. Maybe larger turboprops too.

The 50-seater makes up the majority of most regional fleets. It has been proven that the smaller RJ is not a profitable aircraft. Which aircraft do you think would be a viable replacement for the 50 if most regional’s are scope restricted on the number of 70 seaters?

Looking around at DAL, UAL and U I see as many 70-seaters as I do 50-seaters.

Scope ?

A dying concept.....................

Look back ten years ago when there were a handful of RJ's. Where was scope then ? I was told ORD is 50% RJ ops now...............................50% !

I don't see anything larger than 70-seaters and I don't see a LARGER regional industry, I just see 50-seaters replaced with 70-seaters (for the most part) to fly most of the same routes already flown.

Capacity needs are going up every year and the 70-seater CAN make money. KLBB, JSHV, KJAX, KSYR, etc., can support 70-seaters. Mainline aircraft aquisitions are not going to go up fast enough to take over any of those cities and mainline carriers NEED those cities (and acceptable frequency) to remain profitable.

The regional industry is here to stay, but the 50-seater is not. Mainline pilots could attempt to scope out these carriers, but they'd just be hurting their companies profitability (and their own job security) in the process. THEY won't be flying 70-seaters, but they'll NEED them to keep market share (again, with frequency) and the 50-seaters will HAVE to be replaced.

I'm not worried.

But again, this is NOT an RJ/economics thread, nor a mainline/regional pilot penis measuring thread.

It's a merger/acquasition thread.

Perhaps we should move on ?

 

[BenderGonzales]

ainline pilots could attempt to scope out these carriers, but they'd just be hurting their companies profitability (and their own job security)

I'm sorry. Have I not been paying attention? Let's flash-back, ladies and gentlemen, a mere decade ago to 1996. There was no such thing as a regional jet.

These so called "regional" city-pairs were flown by the 65 seat Fokker 28, the 90 seat Fokker 100, the 100 seat DC9, or the 100 seat 737. Go back a few more years and there was the Bac 1-11. Interestingly, ALL of them paid more than the so-called "regional" jets do today.

Did the onset of the RJ phenomenon improve my job security at a major? I'd argue a big fat "NO". The parking of the DC9 and 737-200 created my furlough...but the outsourcing of that seating capacity extended the LENGTH of my furlough by literally YEARS. No, i'm sorry folks. The RJ negatively impacted job security at the majors -- and by the law of transitive properties -- fewer mainline jobs available for the shiny-jet-syndrome crowd. Next to ALPA the RJ has done more damage to the airline pilot profession than any other single entity.

The DC9 / 737 platform could have continued to compete profitably in just about any market. PeopleExpress and NewYork Air used to fly those aircraft from Rochester to Newark. US Airways filled up 737s between Charlotte and Greensboro. PSA (the original) filled up 737s and BAe 146s up and down the California coast. What changed? Did fewer people suddenly want to travel between those markets?

NO! The replacement jet reduced supply (allowing ticket prices to be raised) and at the same time brought with it an ultra-low employee cost. Why? Because Generation Y ("Why am I still a CFI?") was in such a darned hurry to move their career that they were willing to sell their collective souls to get that valuable jet time. The result today? An armada of low-paying replacement jets from 35 to over 100 seats...fewer mainline jobs...and those remaining mainline jobs have a fraction of the compensation, benefits, job security, and quality of life than they offered only a decade ago.

One decade.

ALPA and the RJ destroyed your profession.

But i'm preaching to a brick wall. You won't believe me until you're sitting in the unemployment office wondering how to recover a 15 year airline career after your first furlough...second furlough...third....?

 

[Andy]

I think it's now abundantly clear that failing carriers should not be purchased by other carriers. IF they are going to fail, they should be allowed their destiny - faliure.

An airline should stand on it's own feet or let the marketplace insure it doesn't stand. If it does indeed fail, the ASSETS can be purchased by other carriers without the hassle of integration squabbles and their will be no "expectation" demands.

If your carrier is solvent, you'll never worry about this. If your carrier isn't, you'll also never worry about this as you'll have no "expectations" from being rescued.

Survival of the fittest !

Do you think that pilots have the final say in mergers and acquisitions? They may have a very small say in the matter, but those decisions are made in the executive suite, not by pilots on the line.

You need to analyze WHY the management of AA and AWA pursued acquiring TWA and U. In AA's case, they had a capacity problem with DFW and ORD and were looking for other airports in the middle of the country to funnel excess traffic. Their first choice was NWA, but NWA management priced themselves at a stratospheric level that AA management couldn't justify. AA went with TWA because of their STL hub, although they paid $1 for the company. In AA's case, they felt that they needed another airport to handle excess capacity and were willing to take on the many liabilities of TWA in order to get another midwest hub (although STL, with its inability to generate high revenue O&D, was not optimum for AA). I am sure that AA management planned on dismantling most of TWA; there were more liabilities than assets. In this case, management had little concern about the additional employees and I'm sure that they were planning on attriting down the numbers over time with near zero newhiring.
For AWA management, they felt that they needed to reach a large enough scale that they would not eventually disappear by being acquired or going chap 7. U offered AWA an instant increase in size so that it is now much harder for AWA to go out of business. There is a certain amount of logic in this thinking. In the last few years, the largest financially troubled airlines were able to find financing while there were several smaller airlines that no longer exist (Access Air, Independence Air, Great Plains, Hooters Air, Legend Airlines, Midway Airlines, National Airlines, Southeast Airlines, TransMeridian, Vanguard).

The bottom line is that airline acquisitions/mergers are decisions made in the boardroom, not in the cockpit.

 

[Kharma Police]

On a side not reg. RJs, is it true that LGA is thinking about putting restrictions on aircraft with fewer than 100 seats?

 

[catIIIc]

On a side not reg. RJs, is it true that LGA is thinking about putting restrictions on aircraft with fewer than 100 seats?

I think it will be by an averge number of seats ie if you fly more big jets you can have more small jets, anyway it is a good start. AA and CAL just have to stay strong on Scope since everyone else caved.

 

[TWA Dude]

Back to the original topic. The only real lesson here is that whatever Management decides to do with their airline it's the pilots (and other labor groups) who pay the price.

 

[JAM-BRO]

I agree.

I'm happy driving to work, making $125K/year and having a life. The 7th year S80 F/O sitting RSV and commuting with 11 days off per month and an anus the size of the Lincoln tunnel gets my sympathy.

He was none to happy with his life and told me so repeatedly as I rode his jumpseat the other day. The "no growth" strategy AA is persuing has him thinking other airlines...............starting over at 39.

His captain (TWA guy - who didn't make all that much more than me for 2.5 times as many seats) was even more disgruntled.

They treated me fine (likewise), but their world was not attractive.

Eaglefly you are so FULL OF $HIT!!!!! You don't make 125K/yr. Your are so full of it that you are starting to believe it!!!!!!

 

[macdu]

Hey Eaglefly you want to give up that # you have on the AA seniority list? Didn't think so.

 

[eaglefly]

Eaglefly you are so FULL OF $HIT!!!!! You don't make 125K/yr. Your are so full of it that you are starting to believe it!!!!!!

PLENTY of senior Eagle captains make that much (some more)...............couldn't care less what you believe.

 

[eaglefly]

Hey Eaglefly you want to give up that # you have on the AA seniority list? Didn't think so.

PLENTY of us Senior Eagle captains will do just that when the time comes in 2-3 years.

Again, wrong thread...................

 

[Andy]

PLENTY of senior Eagle captains make that much (some more)...............couldn't care less what you believe.

$125K/yr? It also raised my eyebrows. Top pay is for an 18 yr CRJ 700 CA @ $98/hr. For $125K, that'd be 1275 credit hours/yr; no easy feat. You'd have to be working all the time with no family life. And you're here talking about how great your QOL is?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

ainline pilots could attempt to scope out these carriers, but they'd just be hurting their companies profitability (and their own job security)

I'm sorry. Have I not been paying attention? Let's flash-back, ladies and gentlemen, a mere decade ago to 1996. There was no such thing as a regional jet.

These so called "regional" city-pairs were flown by the 65 seat Fokker 28, the 90 seat Fokker 100, the 100 seat DC9, or the 100 seat 737. Go back a few more years and there was the Bac 1-11. Interestingly, ALL of them paid more than the so-called "regional" jets do today.

Did the onset of the RJ phenomenon improve my job security at a major? I'd argue a big fat "NO". The parking of the DC9 and 737-200 created my furlough...but the outsourcing of that seating capacity extended the LENGTH of my furlough by literally YEARS. No, i'm sorry folks. The RJ negatively impacted job security at the majors -- and by the law of transitive properties -- fewer mainline jobs available for the shiny-jet-syndrome crowd. Next to ALPA the RJ has done more damage to the airline pilot profession than any other single entity.

The DC9 / 737 platform could have continued to compete profitably in just about any market. PeopleExpress and NewYork Air used to fly those aircraft from Rochester to Newark. US Airways filled up 737s between Charlotte and Greensboro. PSA (the original) filled up 737s and BAe 146s up and down the California coast. What changed? Did fewer people suddenly want to travel between those markets?

NO! The replacement jet reduced supply (allowing ticket prices to be raised) and at the same time brought with it an ultra-low employee cost. Why? Because Generation Y ("Why am I still a CFI?") was in such a darned hurry to move their career that they were willing to sell their collective souls to get that valuable jet time. The result today? An armada of low-paying replacement jets from 35 to over 100 seats...fewer mainline jobs...and those remaining mainline jobs have a fraction of the compensation, benefits, job security, and quality of life than they offered only a decade ago.

One decade.

ALPA and the RJ destroyed your profession.

But i'm preaching to a brick wall. You won't believe me until you're sitting in the unemployment office wondering how to recover a 15 year airline career after your first furlough...second furlough...third....?

Had Delta pilots not been so darn shobbish and just said "it's a jet, we fly it" when the CRJ-100 showed up instead of believeing they were too good to fly anything with "only" 50 seats maybe we wouldn't be arguing over this. What would you have done at Comair sitting on a E-120? Said no I'd rather keep flying this prop or jumped at the chance to fly a brand new jet? They didn't steal the planes YOU GAVE THEM TO THEM! The answer is if it's flying in your paintjob your pilots fly it.... yes maybe for a joke of a wage right now but YOUR pilots need to fly it... after that you can work on getting the pay where it should be... can't do that if you don't fly it.

 

[waveflyer]

I think it will be by an averge number of seats ie if you fly more big jets you can have more small jets, anyway it is a good start. AA and CAL just have to stay strong on Scope since everyone else caved.

Umm-- hijack

The rj problem won't get solved until the Majors and Regionals get together and work it out. That can't happen if there is not mutual respect... (BTW, most of us deplore stupidity like the RJDC- and we don't like flying bigger planes anymore than you do-- we're getting coerced into it-- just like you're getting coerced into giving up your scope)

Pilots are the stupidest smart people I've ever met. And immature- wow-- look at yourselves. Sometimes i think many of you would rather be the highest paid at $80k, than the lowest paid at a $100k. UNITY is the only thing that matters .... ACROSS THE BOARD. No matter the merger, Regional v. Major, furloughed or 1st year--- Every time we get selfish and piss on each other --- the corporate looters win. (ayn rand) Every time we allow one pilot young or old-- to work underpaid and with bad schedules- we all lose.

UNITY

UNITY

UNITY

We're all flying for below a market wage right now, and most of us aren't happy with the way our careers are set up.....We're doing it to ourself.... We know we need our unions- but why seniority at each company?-- Get a national list- and most of our infighting would be solved.

 

[Draginass]

Umm-- hijack

The rj problem won't get solved until the Majors and Regionals get together and work it out. That can't happen if there is not mutual respect... (BTW, most of us deplore stupidity like the RJDC- and we don't like flying bigger planes anymore than you do-- we're getting coerced into it-- just like you're getting coerced into giving up your scope)

Pilots are the stupidest smart people I've ever met. And immature- wow-- look at yourselves. Sometimes i think many of you would rather be the highest paid at $80k, than the lowest paid at a $100k. UNITY is the only thing that matters .... ACROSS THE BOARD. No matter the merger, Regional v. Major, furloughed or 1st year--- Every time we get selfish and piss on each other --- the corporate looters win. (ayn rand) Every time we allow one pilot young or old-- to work underpaid and with bad schedules- we all lose.

UNITY

UNITY

UNITY

We're all flying for below a market wage right now, and most of us aren't happy with the way our careers are set up.....We're doing it to ourself.... We know we need our unions- but why seniority at each company?-- Get a national list- and most of our infighting would be solved.

Yea, unity between different pilot unions/MECs is a great thing, but the real point is what does it get you at the bargaining table. Past mistakes and foolishness don't count, only what you can get going forward. At AA for instance, AE ALPA has zero bargaining chips when it comes to trying to force AA to merge AE and AA. APA pilots have some in that they could give up working conditions and wages to make it economically viable, but we all know that ain't gonna happen. Just like a national seniority list would be a can of worms that the members of the ATA would certainly oppose. Nothing in it for them unless the pilots were willing to give a lot up in return.

Practically speaking, each MEC and pilot group is going to have to look after themselves. If you're a regional guy and you don't like the compensation, then vote it down at contract time and take it to self-help (as far as the Prez will let you anyway). But don't expect your affliated major MEC to fight the battle for you.

If you show up for work for a certain compensation, then that's what you're worth.

 

[eaglefly]

$125K/yr? It also raised my eyebrows. Top pay is for an 18 yr CRJ 700 CA @ $98/hr. For $125K, that'd be 1275 credit hours/yr; no easy feat. You'd have to be working all the time with no family life. And you're here talking about how great your QOL is?

There are MULTIPLE ways to get paid for flying you don't actually do, because we have 100% line guarantee.

Deliberately build a transition conflict - pay me.

Removal for 30/7 or 100 hour - pay me.

Time out (1000 hours) at end of year - pay me.

OT at 120% - pay me.

Removal of flying because of legality that I repeatedly re-pick up
when again legal (I've picked up the same turn 3 times as I've gone illegal/legal) - pay me.

*A 2.5 hour turn and got paid 7.5 hours = $720.00 for actually flying it once.

Trip trade with trip that's half the flying and build back up with OT to approximate origial sequence length - pay me.

These are just SOME of the ways to be paid for flying you never actually do.

I can make it work and still average 12 days off per month because I DO NOT COMMUTE. In fact, my lifestyle/time off is better than any commuter. I know of several CRJ captains that do IOE and have busted $140K.

Our 16-year piece of garbage has it's benefits. In fact, it's probably now one of the better regional contract out there. I don't make the rules, I just learn to play by them and take care of myself, as my company is certainly not trying to take care of me.

 

[JAM-BRO]

PLENTY of senior Eagle captains make that much (some more)...............couldn't care less what you believe.

I flew for Eagle from '93 til '98. Probably started there before you did. I have tons of friends that work there still. Instructors also. They don't make $140K/yr. To get paid $125k/yr, you probably have 8 days off a month. That is great QOL!!!!
The truth is that I don't care how much you make. What bothers me is you ragging on others with lies. You sound so stupid when you say you make just about as much as an 80 CA at AA. I'll quote, "His captain (TWA guy - who didn't make all that much more than me for 2.5 times as many seats) was even more disgruntled." You are such a moron...

 

[eaglefly]

I flew for Eagle from '93 til '98. Probably started there before you did. I have tons of friends that work there still. Instructors also. They don't make $140K/yr. To get paid $125k/yr, you probably have 8 days off a month. That is great QOL!!!!
The truth is that I don't care how much you make. What bothers me is you ragging on others with lies. You sound so stupid when you say you make just about as much as an 80 CA at AA. I'll quote, "His captain (TWA guy - who didn't make all that much more than me for 2.5 times as many seats) was even more disgruntled." You are such a moron...

Couldn't care less what you think.

If you were a new-hire in '93, you could only have been my F/O.

If you think I'm a liar.............tune me out.