U/AWA - AA/TWA lesson

[Andy]

I think it's now abundantly clear that failing carriers should not be purchased by other carriers. IF they are going to fail, they should be allowed their destiny - faliure.

An airline should stand on it's own feet or let the marketplace insure it doesn't stand. If it does indeed fail, the ASSETS can be purchased by other carriers without the hassle of integration squabbles and their will be no "expectation" demands.

If your carrier is solvent, you'll never worry about this. If your carrier isn't, you'll also never worry about this as you'll have no "expectations" from being rescued.

Survival of the fittest !

Do you think that pilots have the final say in mergers and acquisitions? They may have a very small say in the matter, but those decisions are made in the executive suite, not by pilots on the line.

You need to analyze WHY the management of AA and AWA pursued acquiring TWA and U. In AA's case, they had a capacity problem with DFW and ORD and were looking for other airports in the middle of the country to funnel excess traffic. Their first choice was NWA, but NWA management priced themselves at a stratospheric level that AA management couldn't justify. AA went with TWA because of their STL hub, although they paid $1 for the company. In AA's case, they felt that they needed another airport to handle excess capacity and were willing to take on the many liabilities of TWA in order to get another midwest hub (although STL, with its inability to generate high revenue O&D, was not optimum for AA). I am sure that AA management planned on dismantling most of TWA; there were more liabilities than assets. In this case, management had little concern about the additional employees and I'm sure that they were planning on attriting down the numbers over time with near zero newhiring.
For AWA management, they felt that they needed to reach a large enough scale that they would not eventually disappear by being acquired or going chap 7. U offered AWA an instant increase in size so that it is now much harder for AWA to go out of business. There is a certain amount of logic in this thinking. In the last few years, the largest financially troubled airlines were able to find financing while there were several smaller airlines that no longer exist (Access Air, Independence Air, Great Plains, Hooters Air, Legend Airlines, Midway Airlines, National Airlines, Southeast Airlines, TransMeridian, Vanguard).

The bottom line is that airline acquisitions/mergers are decisions made in the boardroom, not in the cockpit.

 

[Kharma Police]

On a side not reg. RJs, is it true that LGA is thinking about putting restrictions on aircraft with fewer than 100 seats?

 

[catIIIc]

On a side not reg. RJs, is it true that LGA is thinking about putting restrictions on aircraft with fewer than 100 seats?

I think it will be by an averge number of seats ie if you fly more big jets you can have more small jets, anyway it is a good start. AA and CAL just have to stay strong on Scope since everyone else caved.

 

[TWA Dude]

Back to the original topic. The only real lesson here is that whatever Management decides to do with their airline it's the pilots (and other labor groups) who pay the price.

 

[JAM-BRO]

I agree.

I'm happy driving to work, making $125K/year and having a life. The 7th year S80 F/O sitting RSV and commuting with 11 days off per month and an anus the size of the Lincoln tunnel gets my sympathy.

He was none to happy with his life and told me so repeatedly as I rode his jumpseat the other day. The "no growth" strategy AA is persuing has him thinking other airlines...............starting over at 39.

His captain (TWA guy - who didn't make all that much more than me for 2.5 times as many seats) was even more disgruntled.

They treated me fine (likewise), but their world was not attractive.

Eaglefly you are so FULL OF $HIT!!!!! You don't make 125K/yr. Your are so full of it that you are starting to believe it!!!!!!

 

[macdu]

Hey Eaglefly you want to give up that # you have on the AA seniority list? Didn't think so.

 

[eaglefly]

Eaglefly you are so FULL OF $HIT!!!!! You don't make 125K/yr. Your are so full of it that you are starting to believe it!!!!!!

PLENTY of senior Eagle captains make that much (some more)...............couldn't care less what you believe.

 

[eaglefly]

Hey Eaglefly you want to give up that # you have on the AA seniority list? Didn't think so.

PLENTY of us Senior Eagle captains will do just that when the time comes in 2-3 years.

Again, wrong thread...................

 

[Andy]

PLENTY of senior Eagle captains make that much (some more)...............couldn't care less what you believe.

$125K/yr? It also raised my eyebrows. Top pay is for an 18 yr CRJ 700 CA @ $98/hr. For $125K, that'd be 1275 credit hours/yr; no easy feat. You'd have to be working all the time with no family life. And you're here talking about how great your QOL is?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

ainline pilots could attempt to scope out these carriers, but they'd just be hurting their companies profitability (and their own job security)

I'm sorry. Have I not been paying attention? Let's flash-back, ladies and gentlemen, a mere decade ago to 1996. There was no such thing as a regional jet.

These so called "regional" city-pairs were flown by the 65 seat Fokker 28, the 90 seat Fokker 100, the 100 seat DC9, or the 100 seat 737. Go back a few more years and there was the Bac 1-11. Interestingly, ALL of them paid more than the so-called "regional" jets do today.

Did the onset of the RJ phenomenon improve my job security at a major? I'd argue a big fat "NO". The parking of the DC9 and 737-200 created my furlough...but the outsourcing of that seating capacity extended the LENGTH of my furlough by literally YEARS. No, i'm sorry folks. The RJ negatively impacted job security at the majors -- and by the law of transitive properties -- fewer mainline jobs available for the shiny-jet-syndrome crowd. Next to ALPA the RJ has done more damage to the airline pilot profession than any other single entity.

The DC9 / 737 platform could have continued to compete profitably in just about any market. PeopleExpress and NewYork Air used to fly those aircraft from Rochester to Newark. US Airways filled up 737s between Charlotte and Greensboro. PSA (the original) filled up 737s and BAe 146s up and down the California coast. What changed? Did fewer people suddenly want to travel between those markets?

NO! The replacement jet reduced supply (allowing ticket prices to be raised) and at the same time brought with it an ultra-low employee cost. Why? Because Generation Y ("Why am I still a CFI?") was in such a darned hurry to move their career that they were willing to sell their collective souls to get that valuable jet time. The result today? An armada of low-paying replacement jets from 35 to over 100 seats...fewer mainline jobs...and those remaining mainline jobs have a fraction of the compensation, benefits, job security, and quality of life than they offered only a decade ago.

One decade.

ALPA and the RJ destroyed your profession.

But i'm preaching to a brick wall. You won't believe me until you're sitting in the unemployment office wondering how to recover a 15 year airline career after your first furlough...second furlough...third....?

Had Delta pilots not been so darn shobbish and just said "it's a jet, we fly it" when the CRJ-100 showed up instead of believeing they were too good to fly anything with "only" 50 seats maybe we wouldn't be arguing over this. What would you have done at Comair sitting on a E-120? Said no I'd rather keep flying this prop or jumped at the chance to fly a brand new jet? They didn't steal the planes YOU GAVE THEM TO THEM! The answer is if it's flying in your paintjob your pilots fly it.... yes maybe for a joke of a wage right now but YOUR pilots need to fly it... after that you can work on getting the pay where it should be... can't do that if you don't fly it.