Typed?

[KeroseneSnorter]

By selecting a military pilot with 1000 hours they know you have seen stuff like that. I am not saying the civilian with 1000 hours haven't seen his share, but it is possible he hasn't. I have seen 1k civilian pilots on this board describing going missed approach and have to hold as the toughest act during their flying.

Pilots are like any other commodity. You have good ones and bad ones. I have seen both civilian and military guys that couldn't fly themselves out a of a paper bag. They are like anything else, every now and then one slips through that should not be there.

Military does not automatically make one a good pilot, nor does civilian. We had a KC 135 commander that barely made it to the line on a 737 due to the fact that he would crash 7 out of 10 V-1 cuts(not popular in the base, consistantly scared Captains with his lack of skills, but would be the first to tell a guy how to fly). On the other side of the coin, you see some of the civilian guys that supposedly have a couple thousand hours in type and can't scratch their balls without a diagram.

Then you can go the other way, Back in the regional days we had 2 new F/O's in base, 6months out of newhire school. Both about 1500 hours or so, One kid was probably the smoothest stick and rudder guy I ever saw BUT, he would screw up the paperwork so much that you had to double check everything that he did just to make sure that you did not get violated. I would have trusted him fully to fly an airplane with a dead engine.......just what ever you do, don't let him make a safety of flight decision...99% percent of the time his choice would be the one that would kill you the quickest. On the other hand, the other kid wasn't quite as good stick and rudder, but he had a good decision skills.

To tell you the truth, out flying the line at a major, you cannot tell who was military trained or not. You fly with so many different folks that you really only remember your good buddies, and the idiots. And of the idiots that I flew with it was split just about right down the middle. 50% civilian and 50% military. But that 100% of idiots, only made up 1% of the total guys you flew with.


Of course, one always needs to be sure that he is not one of the idiots!!! Guy checking his idiot status: "Hey how are you doing Bob?" Bob: "Fine, good to see you again. Sorry, what was your name again, all the faces blend in after a while" Guy just confirmed as not being one of the idiots: "WOO HOO!"

Now if guys who you have never flown with, greet you by your first name when the release only has an initial listed !!!...........DOH!!!

 

[milflyboy]

Yes you are right there are good/bad pilots both civilian and military. But on the military side we at least have the opportunity to weed out the worst. I can only imagine it must be a little tougher on the civilian side.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Yes you are right there are good/bad pilots both civilian and military. But on the military side we at least have the opportunity to weed out the worst. I can only imagine it must be a little tougher on the civilian side.

It's tougher at the regionals than the majors. By the time a guy gets to a major he has been through several companies and 10 years of professional flying on average. That has the same effect as going through a stint in the military.

There are very few bad apples left by the time you get to that level. Most of the morons either picked up a violation or two, killed themselves, or gained a "reputation" prior to making it that far. With only about 600,000 total pilots in the US, and only about 150k to 200k or so with the ratings and experience needed for the majors, you cannot piss off or scare too many people before you become "known"

Being professional and laid back will normally get you far in the industry. There are the select few that make this profession much much more stressful than it needs to be. And in the aviation community, the A-hole Captain may be the Junior new hire at the stroke of a Backruptcy or furlough pen!! Never ever burn a bridge just because you can!

 

[NTS ALL 4]

I can only imagine it must be a little tougher on the civilian side.

It's called a checkride, just like the military.

 

[milflyboy]

It's called a checkride, just like the military.

Everybody can pass an initial checkride. It is just a matter of your wallet size right

Of course after you make it to the Airlines your employer wouldn't like it if you failed a check, but at that time we are talking about checking in a discipline you are flying every day and yes , failing it then would mean that you would really suck or had an extremely bad day and probably shouldn't have been flying in the first place.

How big a percentage of Airline pilots fail a check ride after their initial ATP? How many manages to pass the next one and how many loose their job as a result?

The Air Force weeds out like 10-15% of their fighter pilots during FTU and here we are talking about pilots who have allready gotten their wings and have gone through a significant selection/weed out process.

 

[TonyC]

The newest ATP book I have is from 1994 so I do not know if the question numbers will match anymore. Anyhow 9328, and 9329 deal directly with type rating privileges, specifically asking what privileges can be exercised under various conditions. There are probably others, but it's been a long day and I would rather pass out in a rack, than look for more!!

I no longer have a Commercial question book, but I think it deals with the type rating requirements in more detail than the ATP does. It also occured to me how we may have the disparity between civilian and military knowledge on this subject. As a civilian you must hold a commercial certificate prior to being eligible for an ATP (FAR 61.153 d 1). The military can skip the commercial ticket and move directly to the ATP provided they meet FAR 61.153 d 2.

I didn't relish the thought of actually digging up the Airman Knowledge Test Question Bank, but it's been nagging at me, so it had to be done. The King Materials I have are probably the same vintage as yours, but it might take me a while to find it. Hence, the numbers you gave don't mean much. Never fear, however, because the FAA has moved into the computer age, and the current question bank is probably more relevant to the origin of this thread anyway.

Looking at the current Question Bank found at http://av-info.faa.gov/data/airmanknowledge/atp.htm I find a few occurrences of the word type that are relevant to certificates or ratings.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]

19. [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]E07 [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]ATP[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]To serve as pilot in command in an IFR operation, a person must have passed a line check[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A) within the past 12 months, which include a portion of a civil airway and one instrument approach at one representative airport, in one of the types of aircraft which that pilot is to fly.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]B) since the beginning of the 12th month before that service, which included at least one flight over a civil airway, or approved off-airway route, or any portion of either, in one type of aircraft which that pilot is to fly.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]C) consisting of a flight over the route to be flown, with at least three instrument approaches at representative airports, within the past 12 calendar months, in one type of aircraft which that pilot is to fly.

[/size][/font]
The subject matter in this case is E07, 14 CFR PART 135 - Operating Requirements: Commuter and On-Demand Operations -- Crewmember Testing Requirements. Since "in one type of aircraft which that pilot is to fly" appears in all three of the choices, knowledge of type ratings serves no purpose in discerning the correct answer here. The subject here is really line checks.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]59. [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]E05 [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]ATP[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]What are the minimum certificate and rating requirements for the pilot in command of a multiengine airplane being operated by a commuter air carrier?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A) Airline transport pilot; airplane category; multiengine class.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]B) Airline transport pilot; airplane category; multiengine class; airplane type rating, if required.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]C) Commercial pilot; airplane category; multiengine class; instrument rating; airplane type rating, if required.[/size][/font]

The subject matter in this case is E05, 14 CFR PART 135 - Operating Requirements: Commuter and On-Demand Operations -- Flight Crewmember Requirements. Albeit this question tests the applicant's knowledge of whether an airplane type rating is required for a PIC of a commuter multi, the "if required" still leaves a lot to the imagination.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]121. [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]D15 [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]ATP[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]What are the line check requirements for the pilot in command for a domestic air carrier?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A) The line check is required only when the pilot is scheduled to fly into special areas and airports.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]B) The line check is required every 12 calendar months in one of the types of airplanes to be flown.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]C) The line check is required every 12 months in each type aircraft in which the pilot may fly.[/size][/font]

Here's a question from D15, 14 CFR PART 121 - Certification and Operations: Domestic, Flag, and Supplemental Air Carriers and Commercial Operators of Large Aircraft -- Crewmember Qualifications. While testing the distinction between line checks in one type or each type, there is still no requirement to necessarily know what a type is.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]135. [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A20 [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]ATP[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Unless otherwise authorized, when is the pilot in command required to hold a type rating?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A) When operating an aircraft that is certificated for more than one pilot.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]B) When operating a multiengine aircraft having a gross weight of more than 6,000 pounds.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]C) When operating an aircraft having a gross weight of more than 12,500 pounds.[/size][/font]

A20, 14 CFR PART 61 -- Certification: Pilots, Flight Instructors, and Ground Instructors -- General. Here's a question that directly addresses the issue at hand. This question would have the applicant know what conditions require the possession of a Type Rating, and applicants should know. In this case, they should be able to select from more than one pilot, multiengine w/ GW > 6,000 lbs, or GW > 12,500 as the conditions that trigger the requirement.

However, in defense of viperdriver who began this thread, there is no discussion of how this requirement applies to military aircraft. Certainly there is no discussion of whether a military operator of a 737 is required to possess a Type Rating for the 737. Sure, there's the caveat that begins the question, but can you honestly say you fully understand each and every implication of "unless otherwise authorized"?!?!

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]151. [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A25 [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]ATP[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A commercial pilot has a type rating in a B-727 and B-737. A flight test is completed in a B-747 for the Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. What pilot privileges may be exercised regarding these airplanes?[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]A) ATP - B-747; Commercial - B-727 and B-737.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]B) ATP - B-747, B-727, and B-737.[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]C) Commercial - B-737; ATP - B-727 and B-747.[/size][/font]

Subject matter code A25, 14 CFR PART 61 -- Certification: Pilots, Flight Instructors, and Ground Instructors -- Airline Transport Pilots. Again, while the Type Rating is discussed in the context of privileges, there is no discussion of those airplanes that require a type or those that don't, or how any exceptions might apply to military airplanes or military versions of commercial airplanes, or the military operating "off-the-shelf" commercial airplanes.


Now, that's all I could find regarding Type Ratings or Type Certificates in the current Airman Knowledge Test Question Bank for ATP. None of those questions, in my opinion, require the knowledge to answer viperdriver's questions. If you have a definitive exposition on the meaning of "unless otherwise authorized," I would hope you'd be so kind as to share it with us. Otherwise, you might review your initial response to viperdriver and reconsider your harshness.

Now, as for the military pilot skipping the Commercial on the way to the ATP: The more common route for military pilots is to take the written exam (Military Competency? Military Equivalency? I don't recall) to obtain the Commercial and Instrument, but that doesn't really matter. In any event, the lack of emphasis on the specific requirements of the Type rating is, in my opinion, appropriate. If there were a reasonable danger of a military pilot accidentally operating an airplane that required a type rating without first going through the process to obtain that rating, I might think otherwise. On the contrary, a military pilot would more likely overtrain and overdocument.

If you're interested, Start at your 61.153(d)(2), follow its reference to 61.73, and study Type Ratings there. You'll find "if applicable" used several times.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Also on other applications it asks for aircraft and if a type rating is required for that aircraft. When is it required? Is it required on an Air Force 737?

Tony,

His second question "When is it required?" should have been easily answered by his knowledge from his civilian ATP, as you have shown in your research.

His third question "Is it required on an Air Force 737?" Should have been easily answered by his Knowledge of military regs.

His question regarding F-16's ,B-52's etc, was valid, given that there is no civilian counterpart to those aircraft, Notice I tried to give an answer to those questions as best I could. (LOA's and such.)

So I stand by my original statement. IF he really did not know the answer, it would probably be in his best interest to re-read the regs before his interview. Since knowing when a type rating is required is about as basic as you can get.
It would imply that he may have forgotten some of the more complex civilian regs. He may, or may not ever be asked at an interview, but anything is fair game to an interview board. He is applying for a civilian pilot position, and every other applicant in the room will know the answers to the questions that he posed. Add to that, the fact that a very large percentage of the group will be pilots from other major and regional airlines that have years of 121 experience. Something as simple as this could exclude him from the position.

I have already said that my response could have been worded in a less harsh manner. But the fact remains, he should have known the answer based on the civilian certificates that he holds. Or at the very least, know where to find it in the regs.

Of course, I may be one of the other guys in the interview class, so by all means please feel free to be as ignorant of the regs as you like!!!! I'll take every advantage I can get!

 

[TonyC]

His second question "When is it required?" should have been easily answered by his knowledge from his civilian ATP, as you have shown in your research.

His third question "Is it required on an Air Force 737?" Should have been easily answered by his Knowledge of military regs.

I know it must be hard to bow out gracefully, so I won't continue to press this much further. His "second" and "third" question were the same, the "third" being just a more specific phrasing of the second. I've "re-read" the regs, namely Part 61, and the answer is not clear. There are plenty of "what about?"s that do not collect a straightforward answer from the reg.

I haven't kept up with all the changes to all the military regs as you must have, but I feel fairly certain that they still do not address type rating requirements of 737s. Rather than ask you to point to the Air Force directive that easily answers that question, I'll bow out of the conversation. The last word is yours.

Cheers!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I've "re-read" the regs, namely Part 61, and the answer is not clear. There are plenty of "what about?"s that do not collect a straightforward answer from the reg.

????? 61.31 about as straight forward as the FAA gets!!!
Type rating is required on:
1. Large Airplane
2. Turbojet powered.
3. Other aircraft specified through type certificate procedures.

So through all this you have argued that an Air Force fighter pilot, in command of one of the best performing airplanes on the planet, and entrusted to deliver thousands of pounds of high explosive ordinance when called upon to do so, cannot read and comprehend a simple 7 line paragraph in a book?

Tell me Tony, what do you have against fighter pilots??

There is absolutly no reason why an ATP should not be expected to know when a type rating is required. It is the highest civilian certificate available.

I will now bow out of the discussion.

 

[JAFI]

Gentlemen, Not that I want to get in the middle of this "discussion" but I would like to add some information. Type ratings listed in the FAA Inspector Handbook Order 8700 are under Figure 9-2 in this link (you need to scroll down about 9 pages to see the figure 9-2):


http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_009_00.pdf

That is "the" list current as of today. I did not say up to date, because it is not, but this is the current publication.

Aircraft like the B-52 and F-16 do not have a FAA certification because the manufactures did not submit the aircraft for certification (read no civilian aircraft sales or market). There fore the aircraft are not certified under FAR 23, 25 or the CAR's. Many of the military fighter guys (ego's aside) have no background in transport aircraft (some sneer and call then "trash haulers") so they do not know the status of FAA type rating required aircraft. In the same light, I do not know beans about a F-16, etc. or fighter ops.

However, the first poster did ask a valid question and I think we should answer as best we can.

JAFI

 

[scarface]

This may be redundant but I think it may be applicable. Many years ago I aquired my commercial through the military competency test. I later went and got an ATP while flying commuters. While flying as a full time civilian pilot I received a checkout in the CH 47. I took my certificate of completion to the local GADO and he issued a BV-234 type rating on my commercial certificate. I had several type ratings on my ATP at that time but the only way you could get an ATP type rating was to get a Fed who was in the Guard/Reserves to administer the check ride and he, obviously, had to be a military IP as well. I believe the highest certificate/rating available from a strictly military environment is at the commercial level. I can in no way speak for SWA but I believe they want a 737 ATP type rating.

 

[JAFI]

As a strict military/FAA conversion the highest you can go is a commerical. But if you obtain a FAA ATP ME, all type ratings will convert to an ATP level (there may be some exceptions - example: VFR Only Type ratings). If you are a rated pilot as an aircraft commander you can obtain a FAA type rating for that aircraft if a FAA type rating exists. I can give you the reference if any body wants it. Just go to the FSDO with the offical military paper work, no flight test required.

JAFI