Type Rating Question...

[captredz]

Is there a type rating for the Cessna 402? If not, then would you at least need an endorsement or is the good ol' multi-engine rating good enough?

 

[flx757]

The "good ol' multi-engine rating" is good enough.

No type rating is required for non-turbojet aircraft with a MGTOW of 12,500 lbs or less.

 

[bocefus]

"No type rating is required for non-turbojet aircraft with a MGTOW of 12,500 lbs or less."

Mostly true. Technically, LOA's are type ratings. LOA's are required for many former warbirds that are neither turbojet powered or have a a MGTOW of over 12,500.

 

[bocefus]

"The "good ol' multi-engine rating" is good enough."

Actually it's not good enough. You would need a high performance endorsement unless you were exempted by the "grandfather" clause.

 

[flx757]

Sure, there are LOAs for warbirds, etc....and I assumed that someone going into a C402 would have previously acquired a high performance endorsement in a single engine aicraft at some point in this training.

The guy asked a basic simple question about a 402. I didn't feel the need to go into all possibilities ad infinitem. But if you all feel the need, the floor is yours.....

 

[User546]

OK Flx757, I sensed your sarcasm on the last post, but lets just make sure he's got his bases covered!

Does the 402 have a service ceiling 25,000 feet or higher? If so, don't forget the High Altitude Endorsement required to log PIC (of course unless you were grandfathered in as well).

Ok... thats all.

 

[bocefus]

errrrr, my apologies to flx957 and user 997 for playing professor here, just trying help, not slam anyone.

A High altitude endorsement is not applicable in this case as the 402 is non-pressurized aircraft.

 

[soarby007]

I think the FAA did away with the LOA's for warbirds. They now issue type ratings. At least that's what I was told in Santa Fe.

 

[bocefus]

My point exactly, they are one in the same.

 

[flyer84]

You need a high performance & complex endorsement and an AMEL rating. If the service ceiling is above 25k', you need a high altitude endorsement as well. Depending on what you plan to do (passengers or freight for hire, for example), you may also need a 121 or 135 cert...good luck with THAT!

 

[User546]

A High altitude endorsement is not applicable in this case as the 402 is non-pressurized aircraft.

My ignorance on the plane then! Thanks for the information!

 

[bocefus]

The service ceiling is above 25K, but a high altitude endorsement is not required as this is a non-pressurized aircraft.

 

[IP076]

The service ceiling is above 25K, but a high altitude endorsement is not required as this is a non-pressurized aircraft.

This is where the wierd part starts.....read the reg....

It says...pressurized aircraft (an aircraft having a service ceiling of higher than 25000'). Not quite word for word, but it would seem that for this part it defines the term "Pressurized Aircraft" as an aircraft having a service ceiling of higher than 25K.

Seems odd though, I guess you can read it either way.

EDIT:

Here is a clip from the reg:

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:

To me it appears to define the term "Pressurized Aircraft" as having to do with Operating Ceiling instead of any pressurization system.

 

[bocefus]

Unfortunately, we do not get to read into what we think it means, this is the domain of the FSDO gurus and this is one area where interpretation has been consistant throughout the country. The high altitude endorsement is only applicable when operating a PRESSURIZED aircraft.

 

[IP076]

Unfortunately, we do not get to read into what we think it means, this is the domain of the FSDO gurus and this is one area where interpretation has been consistant throughout the country. The high altitude endorsement is only applicable when operating a PRESSURIZED aircraft.

I'm not arguing that point, I want to know what the definition of pressurized aircraft is? "Pressurized Aircraft" does not appear in 1.1. So, the only reference we have to determine the FAA's definition of "Pressurized Aircraft" is what is listed above.

If you can point me to a FAA Definition of "Pressurized Aircraft" I'll take a look at it, until then, I'll go on the safe side, anything with a ceiling of over 25K like it says above needs a High Altitude Endorsement.

 

[bocefus]

Do as you wish, I am clearly telling you that it is not applicable for non-pressurized aircraft. If you have doubts, verify what I am saying with your local FSDO.

 

[casper1nine]

the reg is for pressurized aircraft that have a service ceiling above 25k, that is pretty plain to read. an HAE is not required for example in a p210, even though it is a pressurized aircraft. a non-pressurized a/c that can climb above 25k does not require the pilot hold a high alt. end.

bocefus is correct.

-casper

 

[IP076]

the reg is for pressurized aircraft that have a service ceiling above 25k, that is pretty plain to read. an HAE is not required for example in a p210, even though it is a pressurized aircraft. a non-pressurized a/c that can climb above 25k does not require the pilot hold a high alt. end.

bocefus is correct.

-casper

Thats cool....got a reference? I agree it doesnt apply to a P210....less than 25K and all....

I'll have to talk it over with our POI and see what he says.....

 

[casper1nine]

i just read 61.31(g)(1) to be applicable to pressurized aircraft, specifically (as parenthetically denoted) to be those having a sevice ceiling or Max Op Alt above 25K. that's just how i read it.

reading a little further, the flight training required to get the endorsement deals with a simulated rapid decompression, a phenomena unique to cabins inflated to greater than ambient pressure, not to all aircraft loitering about above 25k.

-casper1nine

 

[nosehair]

If you can point me to a FAA Definition of "Pressurized Aircraft" I'll take a look at it, until then, I'll go on the safe side, anything with a ceiling of over 25K like it says above needs a High Altitude Endorsement.

I can't point you to an actual definition, but I'll ask you to consider one of the training requirements for the High Altitude endorsement:
FAR 61.31(g)(2)(ii) "Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft."

Also, the heading after the regilation number 61.31 says: "Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes."

The definition is within the reg: Airplanes capable of 25000 AND pressurized.

 

[bocefus]

Originally Posted by IP076

"If you can point me to a FAA Definition of "Pressurized Aircraft" I'll take a look at it, until then, I'll go on the safe side, anything with a ceiling of over 25K like it says above needs a High Altitude Endorsement."

So you would require a HA endorsement for the C-402, C-208 and any many other non-pressurized aircraft that has a service ceiling over 25K based on your ignorance?
Do the aviation commonity a favor and quit trying to interpret the regulations. If it is not clear to you by now, call the FSDO and get in writing.

 

[Jim320]

I think what it comes down to most is what the insurance company will require. Most times their requirements are greater than the FAA.

Jim


Alphapilottraining.com

 

[bocefus]

Very good Jim, ever see policy that specifically states that a "High Altitude endorsement" is required?

 

[Jim320]

bocefus,

I have not flown pressurized aircraft outside my airline flying so I don’t have any experience in dealing with that subject. I know any aircraft that require a type rating do not require it, but it does seem logical that smaller pressurized aircraft would need some type of an endorsement.
Like I said in my previous post it is usually the insurance companies, especially with an aircraft like the 402 that set the requirements.


Jim





Alphapilottraining.com

 

[bocefus]

And you are right, they do set the requirements. However I'll bet anyone ten to one that no insurance company has specified that an insured pilot must have a high altitude endorsement to be covered in a C-402.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's a question, Jim:

Suppose that you call your insurance company about a 414 checkout. You ask if you need a high-altitude endorsement. They say no, just a checkout from a qualified CFI.

You fly one, you get investigated for some reason, you get violated. Period.

It is a kind of laziness that prevents people from looking into this stuff.
Instead, they rely on rules of thumb and assumptions, such as the one that the insurance company's requirements are always more strict.

The FAA and the insurance companyare two different entities, with different goals. You must know and satisfy each of them individually.

 

[Jim320]

100LL
Yes I totally agree. I was just saying in most cases the insurance will be more restrictive than the FAA. Of course you need to research the regs because no one wants a violation.

Jim


Alphapilottraining.com