Type A and Type B RNAV Arrivals

[thatpilotguy]

Does anyone out there know of, or have any information regrading these new arrival designators? I'm trying to locate a textual copy of the info rather than just a "word of mouth" answer.

Thanks

 

[Mercury]

Just started looking into this myself........I think the AC is 90-100 and avail at fly.faa.gov. I'm also going to check the NBAA website. If I come up with anything useful I'll let you know.

 

[Mercury]

OK, it is AC90-100, but the nbaa site shows an update to this AC dated OCT 2005. Update basically deals with RAIM prediction and whether you are in radar contact or not. go to www.nbaa.com click on Flight operations then Airspace/ ATC Procedures.

C-YA

 

[FlyFlyFly]

There was an article in the latest Pro Pilot Magazine on it. The basic requirements are GPS, an FMS with the procedure in the database (not just manually entered waypoints) and RNP 2 for Type A and RNP 1 for Type B.

Make sure you read AC90-100. The article from Pro-Pilot is most helpful. If I can find irt, I will post a link. You may also check with the 121 guys. The larger airports all use them now and they have probably had formal training.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

IAH has some good examples of type B DPs. Off the top of my head, both A and B are RNP 2.0 requirements BUT type B requires you to have your equipement certified to RNP 1.0.

Kind of a goofy thing.

 

[English]

Here's an email about the GNS-XLS that was distributed on NBAA airmail....the link is relevant to all units.

To all GNS-XLS users:

I received this communication today from Honeywell. This is a reversal of what we were told last month.

WRT: Further communications concerning AC 90-100 compliance

• Due to these systems inability to load “complete procedure” SIDS/STARS, it has been determined by Lou Volchansky with the FAA that with regards to AC 90-100, the GNS-XLS, GNS-XL, CDU-XLS, KLN-89B, KLN-90B, KLN-900, and KLN-94 are:
  “ONLY approved for RNAV Q-routes and Obstacle Departure Procedures, NOT RNAV Type A and Type B SID/STAR procedures.”
  For further information please refer to the FAA’s compliance website at:
  http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs410/policy_guidance/media/AC90_100compliance.pdf
  ​

 

[Capthuff]

97 Grand to replace the XLS with a UNS-1ESP @ Cessna

 

[Lead Sled]

97 Grand to replace the XLS with a UNS-1ESP @ Cessna

It's too bad, all of those Global GNS-Xlses out there and they don't even make decent boat anchors. I'll make someone a deal on a couple of them - I'll even throw in the anchor line.

'Sled

 

[Capthuff]

We are looking at selling our 31 and getting an Ultra. One of the concerns is of course how this A-C affects our operation as most of the Ultras have the GNS box.
So, Sled, master of all things regulatory, with the GNS do you still file /L and just decline the DP or STAR if assigned?

Also if anyone has an Ultra they want to sell please let me know.
And if you are looking for a LR 31 - PM me

 

[Lead Sled]

...with the GNS do you still file /L and just decline the DP or STAR if assigned?

That is my current understanding. Of course this just applies to the class A and class B procedures. I would imagine that Universal would be more that happy to sell you one or two of their boxes to install in your Ultra.

'Sled

 

[HawkerF/O]

with the GNS do you still file /L and just decline the DP or STAR if assigned?

Don't do that, you'll screw up the flow. In the remarks section of the flight plan, put "no SIDS no STARS". That way, you wont get assigned one in the 1st lace and things go much smoother for ATC. ATC will assume, and rightfully so, that you are STAR/SID capable unless you note otherwise. Don't wait until after the fact to let them know you in fact are not.

 

[Lead Sled]

Don't do that, you'll screw up the flow. In the remarks section of the flight plan, put "no SIDS no STARS". That way, you wont get assigned one in the 1st lace and things go much smoother for ATC. ATC will assume, and rightfully so, that you are STAR/SID capable unless you note otherwise. Don't wait until after the fact to let them know you in fact are not.

That's not quite correct either, you just can't accept the Class A & B procedures. You are capable of accepting and flying the others.

'Sled

 

[SabreFlyR]

We are looking at selling our 31 and getting an Ultra. One of the concerns is of course how this A-C affects our operation as most of the Ultras have the GNS box.
So, Sled, master of all things regulatory, with the GNS do you still file /L and just decline the DP or STAR if assigned?

Also if anyone has an Ultra they want to sell please let me know.
And if you are looking for a LR 31 - PM me

Same here, we going to fix ours by getting rid of the Beechjet and buy a Lear 45XR

 

[Geronimo4497]

Thanks for getting this out English! I never would have caught this about the GPS units.

 

[HawkerF/O]

That's not quite correct either, you just can't accept the Class A & B procedures. You are capable of accepting and flying the others.

'Sled

I disagree. It's like CDRs. You might have 1 you would like to use and and are famaliar with, but not the others, but if you say you can accept it, you are saying you are capable of accepting any of them at the ATC's discretion. Putting "No Sids/No Stars" in the remarks section is going to save you and ATC a lot of miscommunication. Another option would be filing /K if you are RVSM and /F if you are not RVSM. I think this is an area that needs to be addressed on the NBAA forum in greater detail as there is typically more of a professional crowd over there instead of some of the trolls that you have here. Those guys would probably have a definitive answer, but who knows, maybe not. I know it was discussed there in great detail about a month ago, but I did not follow it like I should have.

 

[HMR]

Putting "No Sids/No Stars" in the remarks section is going to save you and ATC a lot of miscommunication.

Our jet has Globals. We file /L, we don't put anything regarding Sids/Stars in the remarks section. Haven't had a single problem with ATC. Fortunately, we're getting rid of the Globals soon.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I was trying to follow the discussion on NBAA. There still seems to be some confusion (I know I don't completely understand it). Our jet has Globals. We file /L, we don't put anything regarding Sids/Stars in the remarks section. Haven't had a single problem with ATC.

ATC will assign you the SID/STAR all day long. What I was trying to say is that if you are not legal to fly the SID/STAR because of your FMS, ATC does not know that. By telling them no sids/star, they will not assign you any SID or STar. If the pilot accepts a procedure he/she is not legal to fly, then flies that procedure, it is on the pilot, not ATC. I think the FAA will say that No SIDs/STARs should have been put in the remarks section. Just my opinion and it is what I would do.

 

[501261]

ATC will assign you the SID/STAR all day long. What I was trying to say is that if you are not legal to fly the SID/STAR because of your FMS, ATC does not know that. By telling them no sids/star, they will not assign you any SID or STar. If the pilot accepts a procedure he/she is not legal to fly, then flies that procedure, it is on the pilot, not ATC. I think the FAA will say that No SIDs/STARs should have been put in the remarks section. Just my opinion and it is what I would do.

But you ARE legal to fly SIDS/STARS with the GNS. 90% of the SIDS and STARS are still ground based nav, you can fly those. It's only the type A or B RNAV SIDS/STARS that you can't accept.

So the better solution would be to write in remarks "UNABLE RNAV SID/STAR".

FWIW, I find that there is generally better information available here than on the NBAA board. Granted there's a couple of excellent posters (Keith Gordon), but there's a lot of blowhards too.

 

[SSDD]

NO SIDS/NO STARs is a bit drastic. As has been stated before there are a number of procedures that are not Type A or B.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I have been told straight from the folks at Universal that the GNS XL'es are not Type A or Type B compliant.

I like the idea of stating in the remarks "Unable RNAV SID/STAR." I'm wondering if the ATC world is aware of this stuff and will understand that memo in the remarks section. Anyone know this for sure?

 

[Mercury]

Heres an example: Descending into IAD from the north about a month ago. Choices are the Delro Arrival or the Hyper which is an RNAV procedure. The fixes are the exact same except the Delro publishes a heading for the downwind and the Hyper has an additional fix or two to get you established on the dw leg. (sorrry i dont have both plates in front of me as I write this)
"N12345, i see you filed the Delro, can you accept the HyperArrival?
Negative we are a /L. Next aircraft behind us, same question, "Affirm", OK then, "cleared via the Hyper and descend via the Hyper to maintain 6000"
I realize each procedure will vary but maybe this will help a little.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I'm wondering if the ATC world is aware of this stuff and will understand that memo in the remarks section. Anyone know this for sure?

That is exactly my concern.

 

[HMR]

ATC will assign you the SID/STAR all day long. What I was trying to say is that if you are not legal to fly the SID/STAR because of your FMS, ATC does not know that.

I understood what you meant and I disagree with putting "no SIDS/STARS" in the remarks section. If ATC assigns an RNAV procedure, I simply say "unable". If I'm 300 miles out and hear other A/C getting an RNAV arrival, I notify ATC ASAP. Haven't had a single problem with controllers. I've also never flown an illegal procedure.

 

[Capthuff]

Now if you state "no RNAV SID/STAR"

Are all RNAV SID/STARS either type A or type B? Are there some that are just basic RNAV?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt type A & B predicated on the RNP value? And that is why the GNS can't do them. Because the box only understands RNP in the approach mode?

Or is it because for some STARS (Jaike1 for example) there are "off arrival" intersections that you can't manually insert into the GNS because it will dump the arrival?

My brain hurts.

 

[501261]

Neither

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt type A & B predicated on the RNP value? And that is why the GNS can't do them. Because the box only understands RNP in the approach mode?

Or is it because for some STARS (Jaike1 for example) there are "off arrival" intersections that you can't manually insert into the GNS because it will dump the arrival?

Yes, it is my understanding that Type and A & B have to do with RNP or Radar coverage, but that's not why the GNS can't do them. The "phantom" fixes on the JAIKE also aren't the reason GNS's aren't useable.

It's simply that the GNS aren't "smart" enough. The engineers in Olathe, Kansas have squeezed out all they can with the limited amount of memory the GNS has on it. From its memory they've eliminated all airports with runways less than 3000', they've eliminated ILS, etc. well the FAA finally stepped in and said enough.

Here's why, going back to the TEB example, if you punch in the TEB5 SID, coming off runway 6, the GNS will navigate you directly to the PNJ NDB, the GNS does not have the ability to fly a 040 heading until 1500' then turn left directly to PNJ, as is required by the SID. The UNS does, same example the UNS in NAV mode will fly a 040 heading till 1500' then turn you directly to PNJ, without any pilot intervention.

Now obviously TEB5 is a ground based SID, not RNAV, but you can see what kind of problems this can lead to as the FAA is implementing more and more RNAV SIDs. So the AFS 400 simply stepped in and said in order to fly RNAV SIDS/STARS an FMS must have proper "path terminators" and the GNS simply doesn't measure up, it has nothing to do with accuracy, simply the ability to fly a procedure that includes heading or courses to altitude, etc.

 

[SabreFlyR]

Here's why, going back to the TEB example, if you punch in the TEB5 SID, coming off runway 6, the GNS will navigate you directly to the PNJ NDB, the GNS does not have the ability to fly a 040 heading until 1500' then turn left directly to PNJ, as is required by the SID. The UNS does, same example the UNS in NAV mode will fly a 040 heading till 1500' then turn you directly to PNJ, without any pilot intervention.

Now obviously TEB5 is a ground based SID, not RNAV, but you can see what kind of problems this can lead to as the FAA is implementing more and more RNAV SIDs. So the AFS 400 simply stepped in and said in order to fly RNAV SIDS/STARS an FMS must have proper "path terminators" and the GNS simply doesn't measure up, it has nothing to do with accuracy, simply the ability to fly a procedure that includes heading or courses to altitude, etc.

That's the best explaination I've seen yet.

 

[Bandit60]

Heres an example: Descending into IAD from the north about a month ago. Choices are the Delro Arrival or the Hyper which is an RNAV procedure. The fixes are the exact same except the Delro publishes a heading for the downwind and the Hyper has an additional fix or two to get you established on the dw leg. (sorrry i dont have both plates in front of me as I write this)
"N12345, i see you filed the Delro, can you accept the HyperArrival?
Negative we are a /L. Next aircraft behind us, same question, "Affirm", OK then, "cleared via the Hyper and descend via the Hyper to maintain 6000"
I realize each procedure will vary but maybe this will help a little.

If you file L, J, or Q then you are telling ATC that you are RNP and RVSM. Q is the basic and L and J are more specific. I got this information directly from the Jacksonville Center Supervisor.

So my point is that if you file L then they will assume you are legal to accept that procedure unless it is a type A which you must meet other qualifications.

 

[Capthuff]

501261,

Great explanation,
Thanks

 

[Lead Sled]

501261,

Great explanation,
Thanks

I agree, excellent post.

'Sled

 

[WW24dude]

Another great discussion (one of few on this board!!). RNAV A and B is not just a problem at the big airports. Take a look at Rifle, CO, a primary divert for Aspen when the weather goes down cause they have an ILS, 7000' runway and it's an easy drive to ASE. EVERY DP is now an RNAV Type B DP!

Look at the back of the Jepps 10-9. You have an Obstacle Departure proceedure for RW 8, but what about RW26? It says to fly the RNAV SID??? WTFO? If you have greater than 10 knots down RW 26 I don't see how you can leagally get out of RIL unless you have a box that can fly these Type A and B DPs? (if it's IFR of course) OBTW field elev is 5500' and ATC (DEN Center) has radar coverage down to about 9000' MSL. So you can't take radar vectors.

I'm frustrated that on any obstacle DP they would tell you to fly an RNAV proceedure. It's like the FAA is not talking to ATC and they aren't talking to us....

Am I wrong? Hopefully this will get us a new box!

ww24dude