Two planes on the same runway

[Way2Broke]

I have always thought that you can not land if another plane was on the runway, especially at a contolled field, but I was told today that you can as long as you have the "required distance" between the two of you. Is this true? Can you cite a reference? Either way it still seems a bit dangerous to me. Thanks.

 

[CA1900]

I have always thought that you can not land if another plane was on the runway, especially at a contolled field, but I was told today that you can as long as you have the "required distance" between the two of you. Is this true?

Yes, absolutely true.

Can you cite a reference?

Here you go:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0310.html#3-10-3

See also regarding departures:
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0309.html#3-9-6

Either way it still seems a bit dangerous to me. Thanks.

Walking to your car has a degree of danger -- it's all a question of acceptable risk. To me, touching down in piston single when the guy in front of me is more than half a mile down the runway seems plenty safe.

 

[Way2Broke]

Thanks, I learn something new everyday. Is it legal to use judgement on distance from the air? I agree with your danger comment btw.

 

[OpenClimb]

CA1900's got you covered re: operations at a controlled field. As for an uncontrolled field, I do it all the time. My home field is uncontrolled and has an 8000 foot runway. If somebody's going to roll out to the end or even the 90 degree turnoff (@ 6000' down the field), I don't hesitate to put it down on the 500' markers and turn off at the 2000' or 3500' exit.

It's all about making reasoned decisions and managing risk. The little plane I fly for fun has so little mass that the ground roll with the engine at idle and no braking is less than 1500'. The other thing that I consider is that my wingtip is about 28" off the ground and my wingspan is 18'. With a 100' wide runway I have a lot of options.

The only person who's ever questioned my actions is a 300 hour CFI who teaches his students that a 2 mile final is "short final" and that you're a Cowboy if you turn less than a 3 mile final.

Again. It's about making reasoned decisions.

Happy flying!

 

[con-pilot]

No problem as long as everyone is going the same way.

 

[CaptETWes]

I will take the other side of this debate. What if something happened during your touchdown ie. bounces, lack of traction, failed brakes, the list could go on and on? Not putting yourslef in the position of having to worry about if the plane in front of you is going to be out of your way is the best position to be in.

I instructed at a very busy uncontrolled, 3800' airfield and we didn't even allow position and hold procedures unless we were at a controlled field. Too many unknowns like a/c without radioes, etc.

I agree with what's been stated above, it's all about your comfort factor and the level of risk you want to take. However, imposing this kind of risk taking on a fresh, impressionable mind such as a private or even instrument student can and usually does lead to many other bad habits down the road. I have always and will always err on the side of caution.

Keep in mind, too, that the publications cited above are ATC books, not your standard FAA reading material for the various pilot certs and ratings. They are good extra reading, but not every pilot will have read these manuals. The AIM is the "bible" for pilots. Admittedly, I don't have it in front of me and can't quote it, but check it out and see what it says about multiple a/c on the same runway.

 

[avbug]

Admittedly, I don't have it in front of me and can't quote it, but check it out and see what it says about multiple a/c on the same runway.

Let me help you out there. It says nothing.

The AIM is no bible; it's a reference source which serves as a compilation of proceedures and information...which includes the air traffic control handbook.

You'll find nothing contrary between the AIM, and the air traffic control handbook.

As far as accepting risk, it's a stupid concept. Many things constitute hazards, but only become risks when you put them in play. Putting a risk in play without alternatives and safety is stupidity...the idea of managed and calculated risks is a fools errand. Risk in everything? No; only what you allow.

The goal for every pilot should be the elimination of risk.

 

[Huggyu2]

Avbug,
I don't really understand where you are coming from. Maybe we define "risk" differently, but I find that certain flights that I do are "riskier" than others. Some, significantly. However, I accept that at times, and do what I can to "mitigate" it.
I'm not saying you are wrong, I just see it differently (or else I misunderstand you). Can you clarify?

 

[NW_Pilot]

During my travels I have landed with other people on the same runway at controlled and uncontrolled fields. At controlled fields the tower will clear you to land plain and simple if you don’t think you can do it go around, at uncontrolled fields use the radio ask the other pilot of they are comfortable if you know you can put it down in a very short distance “you should be able to if your proficient and the aircraft is capable” if the other guy/gal is ok with it then great if not go around...

 

[Mickey]

I landed at the same time as two other a/c landed in front of me on the same runway several times. You need to go to Sun-n-Fun or Oshkosh sometime.

Take Care!

 

[USMCmech]

I was waiting to take a glider flight and had positioned the glider on the runway waiting for the towplane to land and come pick me up.

Some guy in a C-172 came on freq ranting about the glider taking up the runway. I got on my Comm and told him that he was free to land over the top of me aiming for the 800 foot mark on a 4800ft runway(which is what the towplane always does). He replied that that was crazy and he would circle untill I cleared the runway.

Well, about that time the tow plane was about to land, so we hooked up and took off, the guy wound up circling for 10 minutes ranting and raving over Unicom the whole time.

 

[FL420]

I'm pretty sure they were operating on a waiver at the time but I flew in to the Watsonville Airshow once and there were six aircraft on the runway in front of me at touchdown. Three on the left half and three on the right half. When I cleared the runway there were six aircraft on the runway behind me.

When on short final in a transport category aircraft with an aircraft still on the runway I always reminded the other pilot to be prepared to go around and, since it doesn't happen very often, quickly briefed the calls and actions to be performed. You never know when the ATC guy will suddenly decide it's too close and command a go around.

 

[navigator72]

At really busy uncontrolled airports you sometimes have no choice unless you want to keep going around. Some pilots would take their time getting off the runway and I would slow the plane down as slow as I could. Usually I would land short, taxi in, and the other plane would still be trying to figure out where they were going.

 

[jaxpilot]

had it happen yesterday. I was midfield on the downwind and tower cleared an airplane to land and it landed with another plane on the runway. Tower said something like "you are still cleared to land, you have the required distance of 3000 feet met". Everything was fine.

 

[81Horse]

I have always thought that you can not land if another plane was on the runway, especially at a contolled field, but I was told today that you can as long as you have the "required distance" between the two of you. Is this true? Can you cite a reference? Either way it still seems a bit dangerous to me. Thanks.

Where do you fly? I can't see how you would find routine runway separation dangerous. The average freeway puts you in a more perilous predicament every time you drive.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Technicality Alert

Would this be considered LAHSO because you are requiring yourself to stop by a certain point on the runway? Or does LAHSO only apply to intersecting runways?

 

[Almerick07]

had a controller tell me to go around because a 172 was doing a snail taxi after he landed to "his" taxi way turn off and we had 3000' between us. Next attempt was told to go around because a Waco was taking his sweet time to get off the runway atleast 3000' as well, finally a new controller took over and cleared me to land behind a 757 on a differnet runway..."cessnaxxx cleared to land 35 if you can make taxiway bravo, oh and caution wake turbulence." I guess they have their days too...

 

[81Horse]

Would this be considered LAHSO because you are requiring yourself to stop by a certain point on the runway? Or does LAHSO only apply to intersecting runways?

The original question was, I think, about normal operations at a controlled airport wherein Airplane A lands behind Airplane B -- with 3000' or more anticipated distance between them (see the references in earlier posts). It doesn't require special instructions for either aircraft.

LAHSO applies to intersecting runways, and would include HOLD SHORT OF instructions and meet various other criteria.

LAHSO operations are built around the potential for collision caused by decreasing separation. Normal runway separation distances are for in-trail landings on a single runway, where the following aircraft will not overtake the leading aircraft; IOW the risk of collision is negligible.

<edit to add for almerick: everyone assumes the airplane you're following will exit the runway in a timely fashion -- there's always the occasional bonehead who screws up the plan.>

 

[Almerick07]

On a similar note at the same airport different controller a 737 was directed to land and hold short of runway 3 (they meet at the very end making somewhat of a V) and the pilot responded, "cleared to land 35 and if i dont hold short of 3 we're going to have a bigger problem." (would have been in the drink).

<edit to add for 81: Oh I know, atleast the 757 hustled to the end of the runway lol>

 

[bubbers44]

Just use common sense. I landed over a DC8 once in Columbia after diverting to Panama City because of thunderstorms. He elected to land with a 20 knot tailwind and blew his tires. They still hadn't cleared the first 2000 feet of a 10000 foot runway 3 hrs. later when I returned. The tower never even mentioned the DC8 but if you don't bend metal they don't care down there. Not saying it was a good idea but it was safe.