Two arrests!! Do I have a chance?

[Flightjock30]

Fellow Pilots,
Hello. I am a 20 year old college junior and private pilot. I used to be a great kid in high school, but unfortunately I decided to attend a large university where the partying atmosphere took over me. Over the past three years there I was arrested for a DUI on one occassion and ten months later was arrested for forging a drivers license to get into bars underage.
Now I know some of you are laughing and saying to yourself what an idiot! And you are right, I am! I lost focus on my goal in life to fly commercially and was not disciplined. I got in trouble with the law and now am paying the price. AND BELIEVE ME I HAVE LEARNED MY LESSON! I recently withdrew from school to take a semester off and work at the airport refueling jets full time. I plan on using this money to get the rest of my flight ratings to pursue an aviation career. Do I have any chance at all of ever making it to a Regional or Corporate company with my background ten years down the road? (Im not even going to mention Majors). I would be willing to flight instruct and fly 135 cargo for many years, however long it will take to have these two incidents not be scrutinized so severely during interviews. Thank you. Jon.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Yes you do!!!

I know this "shipping company" based in Bogata that is looking...

 

[Steve]

How did you build 3450 hours by the age of 20?

 

[siucavflight]

FlightJock,
If you keep yourself clean for a while you do have a chance. I have a friend who flies a gulfstream who received a DUI 7 years ago. Keep your head up and a good attitude and it could happen.

 

[FlyForFood_NOT]

In my opinion, if you had all your hours and licences now and were ready to apply to the airlines right now, you'd probably have no chance of getting in.

However, times are changing, and I'm sure it'd take at least 4 years for you to start applying to the airlines, and by then it might not be as competitive as it is now (airlines might not be as picky about their candidates anymore). Besides, if you stay clean from now on, it will show progress. I think you'll have a good chance in the future.

BESIDES, REMEMBER, your resume doesn't say that you have a DUI on your record, and that's what most recruiters read when the are deciding on whether to call you for an interview or not. Most of the airlines find out about your record either on an interview or when they send you their detailed application, by then, it's easier to explain it in person.

 

[Citationkid]

It says your rated in the CRJ and the EMB120, wouldn't that make you a corporate or regional pilot?

 

[bssthound]

I am a 20 year old college junior and private pilot.

You must be pretty close to your commercial since you have 3450 hours and have flown the Brasilia and CRJ. Looks like your arrest record hasn't stifled you one bit.

 

[Clownpilot]

welcome to fantasy island

youre 20 years old

have 3500 hours

and have flown a CRJ and EMB 120

why do you have time in these aircraft?

if you did you would have a job already

how did you acquire those kind of hours while attending college full time

next time research your lies a little better.

 

[trainerjet]

I am a 20 year old college junior and private pilot.

You must be pretty close to your commercial since you have 3450 hours and have flown the Brasilia and CRJ. Looks like your arrest record hasn't stifled you one bit.

Actually, he's either someone logged in with someone else's username, or this is all total BS.

His profile says he has a Commerical, CFI, CFII and MEI...not to mention the 3450 hours and time in a CRJ and EMB-120.

 

[janitor]

I love all this rehab give him a second chance bullsh*t; fact of the matter is you screwed up with your DUI and I sure as hell don't want you flying my family around.

Maybe you really have learned a lesson, and maybe you'll even become God's gift to flying. Fact is for everyone one of you, there are a thousand other highly qualified pilots looking for work who don't have a DUI and excercised a better degree of self-control than you. I would be appalled if any airline chose you over the latter - imagine the PR consequences if you were involved in an incident and your history came public?

You fu*ked up; stop whining and live with the consequences.

 

[Traumahawk]

I'll be the devil's advocate here....don't hate me too much for it.

But whether or not it is a hiring boom in all of the airline side of aviation, it is always competitive. And not to say ANY of us are incapable of making bad choices and mistakes along the way....but when you are sitting in that room with a DUI and DL fraud under your belt, and there is another 15 people in line right outside the door who may have worked as hard or harder and managed to keep themselves clean along the roads we all travel, why would they pick you? Should they? Without regret for the past few years, which have been some of the best in my life, I still would need a d*mn good reason why there would be one less seat taken by someone who did indeed participate in activities many of us passed on. I know I did. And for good reason.......for this reason. Though for many of us it may have been for moral reasons, I'll be the first to admit I'm not joining friends at bars and clubs with a fakee, or driving after drinking(even a BIT) because I am scared more than anything that the effort and time and sacrafice taken, and family support recieved up to this point will be foolishly lost if I participate in such immature activities, or make such poor decisions.

You may have it figured out right now. I don't doubt you are as clean as a bell. The phase may be over. But when the smoke clears you got nailed for the risks, and others didn't. Plain and simple. Walkiing up to you I probably wouldn't be able to tell for a second you have a record. Hell we might be friends. But checkrides are busted and passed by a matter of feet and degrees. 1 bad decision. 1 unfortunate occurence. A few extra seconds of fixation. Theres a thin line between you and us, real thin. Might be finding a ride home at the last second, or knowing the bouncer at a club, but it's there. And it counts.

If I had two applications in front of me, personally I don't care how many hours you have or how well you interview, I know that I'll have a candidate walk through that door the next day with the same or better quals and a clean record. After all, pilot shortages are a myth, that goes the same for 'clean' pilots.

Now, corporate might be a different story. Often it's all about who you know, I know a couple chicks who are daughters of corporate big wigs and they are sitting right seat in turbofan equip despite the fact they can't fly a kite. If you're a good person and CAN fly a kite, you've got a shot.

Good Luck.......
T-hawk

 

[trainerjet]

I know a couple chicks who are daughters of corporate big wigs and they are sitting right seat in turbofan equip despite the fact they can't fly a kite.

Of course, there have never been any guys that were sons of corporate big wigs who would fall into this exact same scene, now have there?

 

[Traumahawk]

NEVER --Hey, first example that came to mind........

 

[Flightjock30]

Sorry for not explaining who I am. My mentor, an airline pilot for Continental Express, gave me his account information so I could log on and ask this question. He was not totally sure of the answer. It sounds like I do not have much of a chance. But by talking to so many airline pilots online they all said they would never recommend anyone pursue aviation as a career anymore. I will just go back to school and get my finance degree. Thanks for the responses. Jon.

 

[uavchaser]

hey janitor, thanks for all the insight on since you must be an expert after just finishing your commercial checkride. i have a excellent job and just got accused but not yet convicted of dui. i've also gotten in trouble for having a beer underage previously. i was honest and told my boss the whole deal and there is no problem at all. hey flightjock, don't let these guys get you down, find an employer that will look at you with the whole picture. would you want to sit in a cockpit with a stiff like janitor for 5 hours giving you b*ll**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about something bad from you past. good luck!

no worries

 

[siucavflight]

unavchaser,
Think that maybe you might have a problem with alchol? Look at your avitar? Good luck finding a real job flying.

 

[uavchaser]

the avatar's a joke, relax

 

[Boeingman]

In today's environment, namely supply and demand....with thousands of highly qualified people on the street with no convictions, I'd say your chances are non existent with a major (as you indicated). Honestly, I would believe it would apply to other avaition jobs as well in this job market.

Also, I don't have the TSA's new guidlines but I think the forgery conviction would disqualify you from holding a security clearance for the airport access areas.

 

[A Squared]

hey janitor, thanks for all the insight on since you must be an expert after just finishing your commercial checkride. i have a excellent job and just got accused but not yet convicted of dui. i've also gotten in trouble for having a beer underage previously. i was honest and told my boss the whole deal and there is no problem at all. hey flightjock, don't let these guys get you down, find an employer that will look at you with the whole picture. would you want to sit in a cockpit with a stiff like janitor for 5 hours giving you b*ll**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about something bad from you past. good luck!

no worries

uavchaser,

Yeah, your alcohol problems aren't causing you any difficulties, right now, in your present job. If I recall correctly, you're chasing uav's around the desert in a 206. Nothing wrong with that, but is that where you want to be 30 years from now? Sure, I can also give you the phone number of half a dozen 135 operators in bush Alaska who won't care about a dui or 2. The thing is, Jon is asking about how it will affect employment at the airlines, so the fact that your current employer is unconcerned is pretty irrelevant to his question.

As far as your comments about janitor's experience level, ummm, so what? Regardless of his experience level, his views are shared by many airline passengers. The airlines are aware of this (and to some degree share this view), so as a result, a a series of alchohol related convictions will be a liability in getting a job.

As for this gem:

".......find an employer that will look at you with the whole picture."

OK, let's play that game, let's take a look at your "whole picture"

I don't know much about you, here's what I do know: in your short life you have an underage drinking conviction, you are facing DUI charges, and you chose a picture of a bottle of gin for your Avatar. Any one of these facts doesn't prove anything by itself, but we put them together and we see a picture starting to develop. Couple that with your attitude that your drinking may be getting you in legal trouble, but you don't care because it doesn't matter, and I think that many desirable employers would take a pass on you.

 

[uavchaser]

a squared, im actually not chasing anymore and have moved on to an excellent paying job, i just cant get rid of the screen name. as for my avatar read my previous post. ive changed how i do things since all this stuff happened to me and my employer knows it and has no problem with what happened. as for the underage drinking thing i had a beer in my hand while bbq-ing my dinner in lake havasu at age 20, BFD. flightjock was just wondering about his chances of making it in aviation, don't say he doesn't have any chance because of a mistake in the past. as long as they can be explained and truthfully accounted for then there shouldn't be much of a problem in the future. as for the document forging, a security clearance might be a difficult to obtain. thanks for your gem about my whole picture of me that you have seen from 2 posts on a message board.

 

[A Squared]

UAV,

You're just not getting it.

To begin with, I never said that flightjock "doesn't have any chance", or anything resembling that.

What I actually said was " a series of alchohol related convictions will be a liability in getting a (airline) job." , and you'd better believe that is true. If you think differently, you're exceptionally naive and rather ignorant. I'm not saying it *can't* be done, just saying it hurts your chances.

Just by way of anecdotal evidence, I know of a guy (air force buddy of a friend of mine) who was hired by Alaska. Sometime before he completed training he got a DUI. (his first, I think) Poof, he was gone, just like that, no questions asked. This was pre 9/11, I don't think they've gotten *less* selective since then. A friend of mine is an ex-military pilot, plenty of multi-turbine PIC time, has buddies at a number of Majors, all willing to walk in a Resume. Unfortunately, he has 2 DUIs. Even before 9/11, he just couldn't get an interview for some reason. Wonder what that reason was? Now, you can sit there and tell yourself that alcohol related violations don't affect your hiring potential, but, you're only fooling yourself. Noone else it dumb enough to believe that.

Play a little mental exercise with me. Let's imagine 3 job candidates, all with the same quality and quantity of experience as you, all other aspects are pretty similar, no-one has a clear advantage, except:

Candidate A has no alcohol related arrests.

Candidate B has a couple of alcohol related arrests, but he has realized that he was having problems and has turned himself around and taken responsibility for himself and can show that he is no longer drinking irresponsibly.


Candidate C has a couple of alcohol related arrests, including a DUI so recent that it hasn't been to court yet. Candidate C's attitude is "BFD" " there's no problem at all"

Now, ask yourself, honestly, who is going to be the least desirable candidate? If you think that they all have an equal chance at the job, you got another think coming. ANy employer in his right mind will put "candicdate C" at the bottom of hte list.

I've worked for alcoholics, and I've had alcoholics working for me. I'm no Carrie Nation, I like my occasional drink as much as the next guy, but I'm here to tell you, alcoholics cause problems in the workplace. Anyone with a little life experience (which I suspect you lack) knows this is true. So, if an employer sees a couple of red flags (like alcohol related offences) and there's nothing there to show the person has changed, the smart employer will turn elsewhere rather than spending time and money trying to find out if this guy has a drinking problem, or may develop one. It's a lot easier to go with the guy who isn't raising the red flags.

Now, I'm not saying you have a drinking problem, I don't know you well enough to judge that. I am saying that you've got a couple of red flags, and your "BFD" attitude (which is a red flag in itself) doesn't go very far to reassure a potential employer that you don't have a problem.

That's just the way it is, you may not like it, but that's reality.

 

[Vne0]

Look sharp, be sharp, interview well, and you will get a good flying job. I've seen it happen several times.

 

[Flightjock30]

Like many of you have stated, not only does a DUI hurt your career potential with an airline, but in the post 9/11 aviation world with all the highly qualified furloughs it ruins your chances for the time being. Maybe in several years down the road when the furloughs are recalled and a hiring boom occurs then you have a better chance.
A DUI does indeed look bad to an airline not just because you may have an alcohol problem, but if an airline pilot with a DUI on his/her record ever crashed or fouled up and it was his/her fault the claims against the airline would be extraordinary calling into question why a pilot with a DUI was hired. This could result in stiffer lawsuits.
With a few recent incidents over the last couple of years regarding hungover pilots attempting to board an airliner for their flight the airlines are taking a great risk in hiring anyone with alcohol-related convictions.
This is what I told Jon, whom I give advice to. I believe his second arrest involving the fake ID was reduced down to a disorderly conduct charge (no criminal record of any kind), in which he had to pay a fine and do community service. Dunno how that second charge would hurt him if the airline doing the background check only came up with a disorderly conduct conviction. Any ideas?

 

[Jolly Roger]

A Squared,

That was a very accurate and well written response, nice to see reasonable folks in this business.

 

[Skyboss]

Walmart is hiring. Seriously. There's one poping up every week. If I were running an airline, you wouldn't stand a chance. Next time, think before you do.

 

[WrightAvia]

It's my birthday today, so I get to tell a birthday story.

On this date in 1987, I was tooling around in my brand new Celica with a friend on the way home after the bars had closed. I didn't have too much to drink and wasn't really feeling my oats at all.

I pulled away from a traffic light that had turned green and without laying rubber, took it through the gears to red line till I hit seventy miles an hour. I then quickly backed her down to speed limit. It was a four lane divided road with a speed limit of 50, that I had turned on to from the light. Just as I had slowed to the speed limit, I spy a car careening up on me like a driver with an attitude, in my rear view mirror. Then I see red and blue lights.

The first question I get from the cop was..."I How fast were you going?" I looked up at the 50 MPH speed limit sign and told the cop I was doing 55. He made some comment about how I took off so fast from the light, that it caugth him by surprise. He said he couldn't clock me, but could have, if I wouldn't have slowed down so quickly.

The next question was..."I see it's your birthday...Have you had anything to drink tonight?" I didn't lie there. It may have been about 6 beers over 4 hours on a full stomach and I weighed 215 at the time. I was familiar with sobriety tests and that was the next delio. He had me doing this stuff on the sloping gravel shoulder, which irked the hell out of me. During one of the "put your arms and hands xyz, lift one leg and count to ten" things...I had to drop a foot once, to keep my balance. But I did it quickly and without skipping a beat, never lost eye contact with the cop and didn't start bobing and weaving. During the whole time I was getting the sobriety check and in all conversation with the cop, I never broke eye contact, except for portions of the test where you tilt your head back. I told my self when I got out of the car, that if there was a time in your life that you were going to play the marine recruit and the drill instructor game, this was it. Listen carefully to every instruction the cop gives you and DO IT.

While all this was going on, he gets my drivers record back from his operations. I had a bad weekend a few years prior to this and had gotten cited for three tickets on one traffic stop. I also wound up suing that agency over that case and getting a settlement (but that is another story). I'm standing there on one foot counting to ten...he's listening to my rap sheet being radioed by the dispatcher. She gets done rattling off all of that stuff and the exact words out of the cops mouth are..."Boy, Mr so and so, you sure have one PlSS POOR F#@&ING driving record!"

I kid you not. I never heard a cop just up and cuss on a "civil" traffic stop like that before. My goose is cooked! He then decides to pull out the portable breathalyser. I blow a 0.11. He makes a comment about how the REAL breathalyser back at the station could show higher or lower.

Then comes the shocker. He tells me I got two choices, I can take my chances with getting a DUI, by going to the station and blowing into the REAL breathalyser or I can leave my car on the side of the road with the 4 ways flashing and me and my passenger can take a ride to Country Kitchen and call a cab or something.

We took the cop's offer of a ride to Country Kitchen. I got a written warning for "OWI". We took a cab ride home. I let those 4 way flashers flash till 8 the next morning, before I went to pick the car up.

A girlfriend of mine was a dispatcher at that agency, so I called her the next day. I told her what happened and the name of the cop. She told me THAT officer never gives ANYONE a break. I never so much as sped or spit on the sidewalk in that town, for at least 3 years after that.

Now, many years later and 125 miles away, I find out that cop's cousin manages the Perkins restaurant in our town. Same last name and all. Co-inky-dink? I don't think Rod Serling would think so.

 

[YODA]

I read an interesting article in some flying magazine several months ago about a similar subject. I think it was written by a chief pilot for a regional airline and he was telling a story about a pilot candidate that had had hit a rough patch in his life. He had recently been divorced and had been separated from his kids, during this tough time he got two DUI's and a citation for wreckless driving. The article ended with the writer stating that he was now one of the best captains in the company. The point here is that everyone is capable of making mistakes and the mistakes that were mentioned in this post are not good ones, however, good HR departments should look at the "big picture" and not just one incident. If you want to have a career in aviation, by all means persue it. You do have to realize that you are going to have a lot of leg work to do. Keep you record clean, that means not even a parking ticket, have a great reputation and record at your job. Do not get in the habit of missing days or calling in sick frequently. If the incidents that you were involved in were a one-time mistake which is common, you are going to have to prove that. If an interviewer can look into you background and find out that you were a poor employee and not dependable and continued to make mistakes then the impression is going to be that you have a problem and you will not have a chance. On the other hand, if many years pass since your mistakes and you have an outstanding history at your job, educate yourself and take the initiative to get all of the certificates and ratings you can get, the "big picture" will show that you made a one time mistake and you very well could have a future in aviation. I know several pilots that fly for regionals that have made the same mistake and I can tell you that I would never fear for the safety of my family if they were in the back of one of their aircraft. I also know some pilots that have never made a mistake that I would not trust to fly anyone I know, period! The point here is that you should never be judged on one thing, the sad thing is that many people out there will but also keep in mind that there are also many that will not. I just do not believe that an individual that makes a one-time mistake 10 or 15 years before and has a perfect record since , an outstanding work history, and is well above the competetive qualifications for a job should not get a chance. Work hard, keep clean, and best of luck.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Be the ball, mmmmake your future...

Don't ever let any of these clowns tell you there's anything you can't do.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Everybody makes mistakes. I don't think you judge someone based on the fact that they made a few mistakes in there past.

I agree with YODA, if the airline is truly looking at the big picture, they will look past the mistakes and look at your skills. I guarantee you the people doing the interviewing, etc. are not perfect. Who is?

The most important thing is the college degree, however! It would look a lot better to one of these airlines if you were able to obtain your degree. Also .. you mentioned whether you would ever be able to fly with the majors because of your troubles. Majors require a degree, although I have heard of people getting hired without one. So I would focus more on that then worry about your past.

Also, think about it .. do you really think every airline pilot out there has a completely clean record? These airlines know people mess up at times. They know how teenagers/ college students are. They also know that people mature and move past that as well.

 

[bobbysamd]

Saints and sinners

I would ask at the outset, how come you didn't create your own account and screenname?

It sounds like I do not have much of a chance. But by talking to so many airline pilots online they all said they would never recommend anyone pursue aviation as a career anymore . . .

That may be good advice, but the wrong rationale for your query. Your issue is whether you have a chance for success with your track record, and not if you should even pursue aviation as a career.

As a couple of people wrote above, there is no pilot shortage. There are just too many pilots available with clean records. The airlines want saints and they can get them. They hide behind the safety issue as their reason for considering only particular kinds of people, even if better-qualified pilots are available. That lowers the odds of success for people who've made mistakes for which they have atoned.

I've been of the belief that one hasn't lived much if one hasn't made a few mistakes. You were not convicted of DUI. Your DL rap could be chalked off to youthful indiscretion. You can live it down if you keep your nose clean, but it might take a while. Here again, you are competing with saints. They will be given first preference for the airline jobs.

When I'm talking about saints, I'm not referring strictly to people who do not have rap sheets and bad driving records. A checkered employment record can brand you as a sinner - especially a termination from a pilot job. Your reason for losing a job can be perfectly plausable, but you have to be given the chance to explain it. It's easier and the path of least resistance for H.R. to bring in applicants who appear to have clean employment records, even if they're less qualified.

In any event, you should finish your degree. At that point, if you feel as strongly as you do about flying as you do now, finish your ratings and see how it goes. Maybe with a little help along the way you can succeed. Everyone deserves a chance.

Best of luck with whatever you choose.