Two arrests!! Do I have a chance?

[A Squared]

UAV,

You're just not getting it.

To begin with, I never said that flightjock "doesn't have any chance", or anything resembling that.

What I actually said was " a series of alchohol related convictions will be a liability in getting a (airline) job." , and you'd better believe that is true. If you think differently, you're exceptionally naive and rather ignorant. I'm not saying it *can't* be done, just saying it hurts your chances.

Just by way of anecdotal evidence, I know of a guy (air force buddy of a friend of mine) who was hired by Alaska. Sometime before he completed training he got a DUI. (his first, I think) Poof, he was gone, just like that, no questions asked. This was pre 9/11, I don't think they've gotten *less* selective since then. A friend of mine is an ex-military pilot, plenty of multi-turbine PIC time, has buddies at a number of Majors, all willing to walk in a Resume. Unfortunately, he has 2 DUIs. Even before 9/11, he just couldn't get an interview for some reason. Wonder what that reason was? Now, you can sit there and tell yourself that alcohol related violations don't affect your hiring potential, but, you're only fooling yourself. Noone else it dumb enough to believe that.

Play a little mental exercise with me. Let's imagine 3 job candidates, all with the same quality and quantity of experience as you, all other aspects are pretty similar, no-one has a clear advantage, except:

Candidate A has no alcohol related arrests.

Candidate B has a couple of alcohol related arrests, but he has realized that he was having problems and has turned himself around and taken responsibility for himself and can show that he is no longer drinking irresponsibly.


Candidate C has a couple of alcohol related arrests, including a DUI so recent that it hasn't been to court yet. Candidate C's attitude is "BFD" " there's no problem at all"

Now, ask yourself, honestly, who is going to be the least desirable candidate? If you think that they all have an equal chance at the job, you got another think coming. ANy employer in his right mind will put "candicdate C" at the bottom of hte list.

I've worked for alcoholics, and I've had alcoholics working for me. I'm no Carrie Nation, I like my occasional drink as much as the next guy, but I'm here to tell you, alcoholics cause problems in the workplace. Anyone with a little life experience (which I suspect you lack) knows this is true. So, if an employer sees a couple of red flags (like alcohol related offences) and there's nothing there to show the person has changed, the smart employer will turn elsewhere rather than spending time and money trying to find out if this guy has a drinking problem, or may develop one. It's a lot easier to go with the guy who isn't raising the red flags.

Now, I'm not saying you have a drinking problem, I don't know you well enough to judge that. I am saying that you've got a couple of red flags, and your "BFD" attitude (which is a red flag in itself) doesn't go very far to reassure a potential employer that you don't have a problem.

That's just the way it is, you may not like it, but that's reality.

 

[Vne0]

Look sharp, be sharp, interview well, and you will get a good flying job. I've seen it happen several times.

 

[Flightjock30]

Like many of you have stated, not only does a DUI hurt your career potential with an airline, but in the post 9/11 aviation world with all the highly qualified furloughs it ruins your chances for the time being. Maybe in several years down the road when the furloughs are recalled and a hiring boom occurs then you have a better chance.
A DUI does indeed look bad to an airline not just because you may have an alcohol problem, but if an airline pilot with a DUI on his/her record ever crashed or fouled up and it was his/her fault the claims against the airline would be extraordinary calling into question why a pilot with a DUI was hired. This could result in stiffer lawsuits.
With a few recent incidents over the last couple of years regarding hungover pilots attempting to board an airliner for their flight the airlines are taking a great risk in hiring anyone with alcohol-related convictions.
This is what I told Jon, whom I give advice to. I believe his second arrest involving the fake ID was reduced down to a disorderly conduct charge (no criminal record of any kind), in which he had to pay a fine and do community service. Dunno how that second charge would hurt him if the airline doing the background check only came up with a disorderly conduct conviction. Any ideas?

 

[Jolly Roger]

A Squared,

That was a very accurate and well written response, nice to see reasonable folks in this business.

 

[Skyboss]

Walmart is hiring. Seriously. There's one poping up every week. If I were running an airline, you wouldn't stand a chance. Next time, think before you do.

 

[WrightAvia]

It's my birthday today, so I get to tell a birthday story.

On this date in 1987, I was tooling around in my brand new Celica with a friend on the way home after the bars had closed. I didn't have too much to drink and wasn't really feeling my oats at all.

I pulled away from a traffic light that had turned green and without laying rubber, took it through the gears to red line till I hit seventy miles an hour. I then quickly backed her down to speed limit. It was a four lane divided road with a speed limit of 50, that I had turned on to from the light. Just as I had slowed to the speed limit, I spy a car careening up on me like a driver with an attitude, in my rear view mirror. Then I see red and blue lights.

The first question I get from the cop was..."I How fast were you going?" I looked up at the 50 MPH speed limit sign and told the cop I was doing 55. He made some comment about how I took off so fast from the light, that it caugth him by surprise. He said he couldn't clock me, but could have, if I wouldn't have slowed down so quickly.

The next question was..."I see it's your birthday...Have you had anything to drink tonight?" I didn't lie there. It may have been about 6 beers over 4 hours on a full stomach and I weighed 215 at the time. I was familiar with sobriety tests and that was the next delio. He had me doing this stuff on the sloping gravel shoulder, which irked the hell out of me. During one of the "put your arms and hands xyz, lift one leg and count to ten" things...I had to drop a foot once, to keep my balance. But I did it quickly and without skipping a beat, never lost eye contact with the cop and didn't start bobing and weaving. During the whole time I was getting the sobriety check and in all conversation with the cop, I never broke eye contact, except for portions of the test where you tilt your head back. I told my self when I got out of the car, that if there was a time in your life that you were going to play the marine recruit and the drill instructor game, this was it. Listen carefully to every instruction the cop gives you and DO IT.

While all this was going on, he gets my drivers record back from his operations. I had a bad weekend a few years prior to this and had gotten cited for three tickets on one traffic stop. I also wound up suing that agency over that case and getting a settlement (but that is another story). I'm standing there on one foot counting to ten...he's listening to my rap sheet being radioed by the dispatcher. She gets done rattling off all of that stuff and the exact words out of the cops mouth are..."Boy, Mr so and so, you sure have one PlSS POOR F#@&ING driving record!"

I kid you not. I never heard a cop just up and cuss on a "civil" traffic stop like that before. My goose is cooked! He then decides to pull out the portable breathalyser. I blow a 0.11. He makes a comment about how the REAL breathalyser back at the station could show higher or lower.

Then comes the shocker. He tells me I got two choices, I can take my chances with getting a DUI, by going to the station and blowing into the REAL breathalyser or I can leave my car on the side of the road with the 4 ways flashing and me and my passenger can take a ride to Country Kitchen and call a cab or something.

We took the cop's offer of a ride to Country Kitchen. I got a written warning for "OWI". We took a cab ride home. I let those 4 way flashers flash till 8 the next morning, before I went to pick the car up.

A girlfriend of mine was a dispatcher at that agency, so I called her the next day. I told her what happened and the name of the cop. She told me THAT officer never gives ANYONE a break. I never so much as sped or spit on the sidewalk in that town, for at least 3 years after that.

Now, many years later and 125 miles away, I find out that cop's cousin manages the Perkins restaurant in our town. Same last name and all. Co-inky-dink? I don't think Rod Serling would think so.

 

[YODA]

I read an interesting article in some flying magazine several months ago about a similar subject. I think it was written by a chief pilot for a regional airline and he was telling a story about a pilot candidate that had had hit a rough patch in his life. He had recently been divorced and had been separated from his kids, during this tough time he got two DUI's and a citation for wreckless driving. The article ended with the writer stating that he was now one of the best captains in the company. The point here is that everyone is capable of making mistakes and the mistakes that were mentioned in this post are not good ones, however, good HR departments should look at the "big picture" and not just one incident. If you want to have a career in aviation, by all means persue it. You do have to realize that you are going to have a lot of leg work to do. Keep you record clean, that means not even a parking ticket, have a great reputation and record at your job. Do not get in the habit of missing days or calling in sick frequently. If the incidents that you were involved in were a one-time mistake which is common, you are going to have to prove that. If an interviewer can look into you background and find out that you were a poor employee and not dependable and continued to make mistakes then the impression is going to be that you have a problem and you will not have a chance. On the other hand, if many years pass since your mistakes and you have an outstanding history at your job, educate yourself and take the initiative to get all of the certificates and ratings you can get, the "big picture" will show that you made a one time mistake and you very well could have a future in aviation. I know several pilots that fly for regionals that have made the same mistake and I can tell you that I would never fear for the safety of my family if they were in the back of one of their aircraft. I also know some pilots that have never made a mistake that I would not trust to fly anyone I know, period! The point here is that you should never be judged on one thing, the sad thing is that many people out there will but also keep in mind that there are also many that will not. I just do not believe that an individual that makes a one-time mistake 10 or 15 years before and has a perfect record since , an outstanding work history, and is well above the competetive qualifications for a job should not get a chance. Work hard, keep clean, and best of luck.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Be the ball, mmmmake your future...

Don't ever let any of these clowns tell you there's anything you can't do.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Everybody makes mistakes. I don't think you judge someone based on the fact that they made a few mistakes in there past.

I agree with YODA, if the airline is truly looking at the big picture, they will look past the mistakes and look at your skills. I guarantee you the people doing the interviewing, etc. are not perfect. Who is?

The most important thing is the college degree, however! It would look a lot better to one of these airlines if you were able to obtain your degree. Also .. you mentioned whether you would ever be able to fly with the majors because of your troubles. Majors require a degree, although I have heard of people getting hired without one. So I would focus more on that then worry about your past.

Also, think about it .. do you really think every airline pilot out there has a completely clean record? These airlines know people mess up at times. They know how teenagers/ college students are. They also know that people mature and move past that as well.

 

[bobbysamd]

Saints and sinners

I would ask at the outset, how come you didn't create your own account and screenname?

It sounds like I do not have much of a chance. But by talking to so many airline pilots online they all said they would never recommend anyone pursue aviation as a career anymore . . .

That may be good advice, but the wrong rationale for your query. Your issue is whether you have a chance for success with your track record, and not if you should even pursue aviation as a career.

As a couple of people wrote above, there is no pilot shortage. There are just too many pilots available with clean records. The airlines want saints and they can get them. They hide behind the safety issue as their reason for considering only particular kinds of people, even if better-qualified pilots are available. That lowers the odds of success for people who've made mistakes for which they have atoned.

I've been of the belief that one hasn't lived much if one hasn't made a few mistakes. You were not convicted of DUI. Your DL rap could be chalked off to youthful indiscretion. You can live it down if you keep your nose clean, but it might take a while. Here again, you are competing with saints. They will be given first preference for the airline jobs.

When I'm talking about saints, I'm not referring strictly to people who do not have rap sheets and bad driving records. A checkered employment record can brand you as a sinner - especially a termination from a pilot job. Your reason for losing a job can be perfectly plausable, but you have to be given the chance to explain it. It's easier and the path of least resistance for H.R. to bring in applicants who appear to have clean employment records, even if they're less qualified.

In any event, you should finish your degree. At that point, if you feel as strongly as you do about flying as you do now, finish your ratings and see how it goes. Maybe with a little help along the way you can succeed. Everyone deserves a chance.

Best of luck with whatever you choose.