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TWA Still Kickin'

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Counselair

"He said member..."
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
210
I got a little bored so I figured I'd stir the spit pot. Here comes the flame bait...

Posted on Thu, Jun. 12, 2003

American's layoff methods decried
By Maria Recio
Star-Telegram Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON _ In often-emotional testimony, former TWA workers facing massive layoffs accused American Airlines of lying in its promises of treating them fairly _ an accusation that found a receptive audience Thursday in Missouri senators at a congressional committee.

Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., chairing a hearing of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, said it was "a story of how the once-promising combination of two airlines turned into a disaster for so many former TWA workers."

American Airlines acquired most of the assets of the bankrupt TWA in April 2001 and pledged to integrate TWA's 20,000 employees into the Fort Worth-based carrier's workforce. Since then, American has been slammed by the economic slowdown, terror attacks, a dropoff in business travel, the rise of discount carriers, the Iraq war, and the spread of SARS, and the Fort Worth airline has laid off thousands of employees.

Former TWA workers said they are disproportionately being hit with layoffs. American management maintained it did the best it could in urging its unions to combine the seniority lists in a fair manner; the lists determine the way layoffs are handed out.

"The simple fact is that there was no significant integration of the seniority lists," Bond said. "The flight attendants and most pilots were simply stapled to the bottom of the seniority lists, and when the cuts came, they came from the bottom up."

"The result: 60 percent of all former TWA pilots were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list at American Airlines," Bond said. "However, as poorly as the pilots were treated, it has been much worse for TWA's flight attendants. As of July 2, 2003, 100 percent of all former TWA flight attendants will have been furloughed by American Airlines _ that's nearly 4,200 employees."

One of the flight attendants facing furlough in July is Karen Schooling, who told the committee that she is a widow with a severely disabled son and is slated to lose her medical benefits after 30 days.

"I am facing total and complete financial devastation," Schooling said.

Flight attendant Sherry Cooper _ who served on the TWA board of directors as a labor representative, and filed suit last year over the treatment of the TWA flight attendants in the acquisition _ testified to the Senate committee that there were no negotiations on the seniority list, "zero, none, nada."

Speaking for American Airlines, Jeff Brundage, vice president of employee relations, said, "It was always our intent to provide jobs to the TWA workers until their retirement, and we did everything we could to put our newest employees on par with all other American employees."

Brundage blamed the downturn in the economy and the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks for the layoffs. And he emphasized that when TWA was on the ropes, "only American was willing to make a comprehensive proposal that saved the jobs of many TWA employees."

Later in the hearing, Brundage noted that before the acquisition, he had to reassure American workers about their job security.

"We were not going to make this transaction on the backs of American employees," he said.

That did not satisfy Bond, who read from a list of promises from American executives, including former chief executive Donald Carty, who was invited to testify but did not appear.

In response to Brundage's insistence that management had only encouraged its unions to treat TWA workers fairly, Bond said, "You were all over the middle of these negotiations and had a significant say in how they would come out."

The Missouri Republican, who is a member of the committee but not its chairman, was given the courtesy of chairing the hearing because of his home-state interest in the former St. Louis-based carrier. The only other senator attending the hearing was fellow Missouri Republican Sen. Jim Talent, who is not a member of the panel but was permitted to participate.

Talent, a former labor lawyer, said, "I look at this and ask `What happened? What happened?"

Capt. Edwin White, who was the lead negotiator on the seniority issue for the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American pilots, told the committee that the list settled on by APA was "an extremely fair expression of the legitimate and realistic career expectations of both pilot groups.

"In light of the fact that TWA was teetering on the verge of collapse and dissolution at the time of the asset purchase, the career expectations of the TWA pilots were infused with a much higher probability of furlough _ or even worse, permanent unemployment _ than the American pilots," White said.

Talent asked Brundage and White if they would be willing to go back to the table to re-do seniority lists to make them more equitable, but both American representatives declined.

Brundage said he had the choice of declining the seniority list presented by the unions and treating the TWA employees as "new hires _ a standing that would have cost them substantially in pay and benefits."

White said that the former TWA pilots had already filed suit in New Jersey and that Congress should let the courts decide.

Bond, who has tried and failed to pass legislation ordering mandatory arbitration on the lists, has not decided what he will do next.

"This was a fact-finding hearing to get to the bottom of some competing allegations," said Ernie Blazar, a Bond spokesman. "It's too early to say what else Bond will do."
 
Dual rated,

"*yawn*" is probably the most callous comment you could throw out there...Way to go...Never really saw the point of kicking someone in the teeth that way...

For the record, I frequently used the TWA jumpseat, and I think their pilots are really good people...sorry for what you're going through.
 
Thanks Steeler fan,

I agree with everything you have printed except for "Steeler Fan". Go Giants! Then again as I'm on my sixth airline and furloughed maybe my choices weren't always the best.:(

Counselair:D :D :D
 
Interesting Steeler Info

1. Bettis is at his lowest weight/best shape since 1997

2. Charlie Batch makes more $$ the Tommy Maddox this year.

3. Josh Miller (punter) makes more $$ than Tommy also

***Hopefully, this is a recipe for success

What's the difference between a old blanket and the Steeler secondary?

The blanket at least can cover something (and it has less holes in it)...Hopefully it won't be as bad this season!

"One for the thumb in 2004"
 
Well,

The TWA pilots will be around early to mid '89 hire. They've been flying as captains for several years now. The aa pilots were around early '00 hires. They've been off probation for a couple years now.

Now watch them all get on here and tell us how great they are, and they should all be Captains anyway, and the TWA people are losers because the company didn't make money, etc....

It is getting rather boring hearing the constant arrogance from the aa pilots, especially considering the shape the whole industry is in. Most Pilots I meet talk about how lucky they are to have jobs. Not the aa bunch, they just tell you how lucky you are to be in their presence!
 
steveg said:
Well,

The TWA pilots will be around early to mid '89 hire. They've been flying as captains for several years now. The aa pilots were around early '00 hires. They've been off probation for a couple years now.


sadly, you are off a bit....the first nAAtive aa pilots to be furloughed after the former TWA captains, 1988-1989 hires, currently being furloughed are April 9 , 2001 hires.........disgusting if you ask me.................
 
mach none said:
Do the furloughs go to the Reno people? Or are they already gone?

The Reno Air pilots have 2/99 hire dates, and I don't think the furloughs go back that far.
 
Nope all the Reno folks are safe, it's all a matter of timing. They were a finiacialy viable carrier (read not CH11 for the 3rd time). All of the pilots were stapled and not one is out on the street.

The TWA folks received a much better deal but due to circumstances outside the airlines control, well we all know the story

All of the Reno folks are north of "todays" no furlough line.

Let's keep beating that dead horse
 
Since aa is no longer a financially viable airline, where does that put you?

Also, since you guys can predict the future, why are you working for a financially struggling airline that is losing billions of dollars?

How does it feel when someone tells you your career expectations are zilch because your company is losing money, so you may as well start over?

Still don't get it that you are just a pilot, do you?
 
PS. It's only a dead horse to you, because you aren't affected. You aren't affected because of the TWA folks taking all the hits for you. It's pretty cold to call it a dead horse when thousands of folks have had their world turned upside down, lost everything they owned, gotten divorced, even committed suicide.

Your right though, we should all just forget it because it doesn't affect YOU. And YOU are tired of hearing about it. We all need to remember that the world revolves around aa pilots.
 
Originally posted by steveg
Since aa is no longer a financially viable airline, where does that put you?

G4G5
Let's see how many times has AA gone BK? So where does that put us? AA avoided BK during the darkest times in avaitaion history. TWA couldn't turn a profit during the days of record profits. Don't get me started.
-----------------------------------------------------

Also, since you guys can predict the future, why are you working for a financially struggling airline that is losing billions of dollars?

G4G5
Name one of these airlines that isn't loosing record profits. DAL, UAL, CAL, USAir, NWA, AWA I could go on and on. Hey Nostradamus should every pilot at every major carrier in the US (outside of B6 and LUV) quit and start selling insurnace?
____________________________________________


How does it feel when someone tells you your career expectations are zilch because your company is losing money, so you may as well start over?

G4G5
It's over for me, my number comes up within the next few months. Maybe I come back, maybe not. That's life I am getting furloughed by AA. Instead of sitting here crying about my once great TWA. I went out last month, hit the pavement, with my updated resume, in my new interview suit and found another job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still don't get it that you are just a pilot, do you?

G4G5
Get over yourself. You win some and you loose some. I watched my father and my uncle suffer over at Pan Am. The samething could eaisly happen to me at AA. It's part of just being a pilot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. It's only a dead horse to you, because you aren't affected. You aren't affected because of the TWA folks taking all the hits for you. It's pretty cold to call it a dead horse when thousands of folks have had their world turned upside down, lost everything they owned, gotten divorced, even committed suicide.

G4G5
I wasn't effected, Hello! It sure would have been nice to have the extra $742 million plus expenses, debt burden, cost of aquisition, yada yada (3.5 billion). That cash could have been used to help AA get through the tuff times. Instead Carty purchases TWA and look what happened(I was for the aquisition). Sure nobody could have predicted it, but it did happen. Can you honestly sit there and tell us that the aquisition of TWA has helped the AA employees? Or would a leaner AA(minus TWA) have been in a better economic position to survive a post 9/11 world?

Or are you trying to tell us that TWA could have made it through all of this and come out with out furloughing a single sole? Because from what I remember Compton is on record stating "there was NO WHITE KNIGHT". Karbau was going no where and the only other viable offer was coming for your uncle Carl who promissed that TWA would be "20-40% smaller".(this was the pre 9/11 estimate). If you are trying to tell us, a 3 time loser would have been better off, then most folks are going to tell you that it's time to change the water in you bong Cheech.

I am not cold, I feel for these people the same way I felt for my relatives at Pan Am. But this is reality, TWA was not the first and I am willing to say that they won't be the last. History is full of TWA's and we all are fully aware of this when we choose aviation as a profession. When I tell you to "stop beating a dead horse" I am down playing what the folks at TWA went through. What I am telling you to move on with your life. It's done, it's over. Let it rest.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Your right though, we should all just forget it because it doesn't affect YOU. And YOU are tired of hearing about it. We all need to remember that the world revolves around aa pilots.

G4G5
Again it's not about me, as of Aug 1, I will no longer be an AA pilot. So I guess the world will still stop revolving around me, LOL. And yes WE are tired of hearing about it.
 
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Pilotbob3 said:
so g4g5 are you a 69'er or a 31'er?

Hi Bob,

A 31%er without a doubt.
 
G whatever,

Feel better? Obviously I struck some cords. Perhaps it's you who needs to get over himself. You seem very angry now that you are forced to realize that just because you are an aa pilot, the sun doesn't set on you.

I'm much happier now that I am away from aa and the great sense of entitlement that apparently goes with being an aa pilot. You are right about one thing, we would all have been better off never having had any thing to do with amr. My life is 100% better, I hope the same for you.

Another thing is for sure. If aa had not bought TWA, you would have been furloughed a couple of years ago. We would have both been on the street. You ever think about telling a TWA pilot you are glad they were here, so you could collect your precious aa check while they got axed first?

I thought not.

Good luck with your new job. I hope you can find a balance, and learn to handle difficulty in some way other than blaming TWA for everything.
 
I am not blaming TWA for anything, and I don't see all that many of the folks I fly with blaming TWA, the economy, 9/11, SARS, or the war for their current mis fortunes.

What I do see is a lot of TWA folks blaming AA for 20+ year of mis management, Carl, 3 bk's, the economy, yada yada. To the point where we now have to listen to Hearings again(yes, 2+ years after the fact) on the aquisition.

That was my point let it rest. I am not sorry that I am getting furloughed. I am not sorry that I turned down B6 to go to AA. That's life you move on.

I am happy to have found a great job and can turn the page saying been there, done that, got the uniform.

As far as the TWA folks saving my job. I will grant you that, for a lot of folks they were able to get a pay check for a lot longer. Thanks.

But for the approx 450 AA pilots that were hired after 4/11/01, who were hired and placed behind the aquired. You may want to thank them because every TWA FO hired (even the 23 year old with 2 weeks of seniority) will get recalled back to AA before they do. Or all of the 400+ Eagle pilots(most of which has 10+ years of service to AMR) who will now have to wait untill every TWA fo has a job before they can excerise their flow through numbers.

See it's a two way street but if you don't look in the rear view mirror then the ride is a whole lot smoother.
 
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G4G5,

Sorry you're getting the axe too. Just curious, if you'd stayed at Delta would you have already been furloughed? (or NW, for that matter?)
 
TWA Dude said:
G4G5,

Sorry you're getting the axe too. Just curious, if you'd stayed at Delta would you have already been furloughed? (or NW, for that matter?)

Thanks, getting axed sucks. My number isn't up until Nov. but I have been looking for a while and came across something pretty good so I am taking a POL until the axe falls.

Yep I would have been F'ed at NWA and DAL. Crazy profession. Not sure if I am going to turn down a descent Gulfstream job to come back. I made that mistake once already.

Like I said a few posts above, thanks. I am one of the guys who was able to hang on a year or so longer because of the TWA aquisition. I didn't plan it that way but I am sure you didn't plan on things working out like they did either. Good luck.
 
Bob,
I could not agree with you more about the union. They are pathetic especially the 69% that voted for this POS. Their is no unity and their won't be for quite some time but to think that it has anything to to do with the TWA pilots is absurd

Once the furloughs stop how many TWA pilots will be left on the list. Approx 500? Out of 9000 remaining. 6% of the total pilot staffing, stuck flying in STL. Hardly a force that would create any of the unitly problems that you mention. How many will be left once the recalls start, IMHO 3-4%, maybe. Nope we are screwed up all on our own. Just because you guys are pissed at us isn't going to stop us from ever becoming unified. Nope it's going to take a majority of those 69% to wake up and smell the coffee, apparently they don't brew much coffee in DCA and DFW, more like kool aid if you ask me.

Yep the B6 thing would have probably been the better choice but I don't have the personal make up to take a job knowing that I would be sitting in the same seat, with no career progession, only flying domestic, in the same aircraft type for the next 25 years. It's just not my cup of tea but don't get me wrong, for a lot of people it's going to be one heck of a good cup of tea.

You can piss and moan about the intergration all you want. It's NEVER going to change. Take a look at what the the DAL pilots gave the Pan Am pilots. I rest my case. The APA hired the best lawyers my dues could buy and the came up with an intergration that is court test and ALPA approved.

I would not put much creedance into the rumors you hear about AA guys having a tuff time finding work. I have heard exactly the opposite but again rumors are rumors. I know if my new company needs another pilot I will be going out of my way to help out an AA or TWA guy.
 
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G4G5 said:
Bob,
I could not agree with you more about the union. They are pathetic especially the 69% that voted for this POS. Their is no unity and their won't be for quite some time but to think that it has anything to to do with the TWA pilots is absurd

Once the furloughs stop how many TWA pilots will be left on the list. Approx 500? Out of 9000 remaining. 6% of the total pilot staffing, stuck flying in STL. Hardly a force that would create any of the unitly problems that you mention. How many will be left once the recalls start, IMHO 3-4%, maybe. Nope we are screwed up all on our own. Just because you guys are pissed at us isn't going to stop us from ever becoming unified. Nope it's going to take a majority of those 69% to wake up and smell the coffee, apparently they don't brew much coffee in DCA and DFW, more like kool aid if you ask me.

Yep the B6 thing would have probably been the better choice but I don't have the personal make up to take a job knowing that I would be sitting in the same seat, with no career progession, only flying domestic, in the same aircraft type for the next 25 years. It's just not my cup of tea but don't get me wrong, for a lot of people it's going to be one heck of a good cup of tea.

You can piss and moan about the intergration all you want. It's NEVER going to change. Take a look at what the the DAL pilots gave the Pan Am pilots. I rest my case. The APA hired the best lawyers my dues could buy and the came up with an intergration that is court test and ALPA approved.

I would not put much creedance into the rumors you hear about AA guys having a tuff time finding work. I have heard exactly the opposite but again rumors are rumors. I know if my new company needs another pilot I will be going out of my way to help out an AA or TWA guy.



well yes the TWA pilots are part of the disunity a major part.!! you can't say we don't count because we do........you have a lot of nonmembers as well as the members who don't feel any unity...i believe there are about 1,000 members and 1,000 nonmembers....give or take a few since there were 2,301 of us total......no matter what is left now, we will be coming back one day and it is a larger than you want percentage of "disunity" for
sure! but today the majority of the disunity is of those 69% !!! im sure the 69% if given the chance to vote again would be down below 50% . you cannot be unified if you have all those nonmembers! you cannot write off the TWA pilots as not having anything to do with unity. we do count and it is showing. the company sure sees it as a unity problem....the company is laughing all the way. they love it! you know it is killing the apa that they lost well over 3 million dollars in dues from nonmembers the last 2 years!!!!! yea i know agency shop will come in play but they wont get that lost money...and you will still have the nonmembers anyway even if they are paying a "service" fee.

as far as the seniority list NEVER changing.....not sure if you heard about the People Express guys getting their seniority back at Continental after 5 years in court....NEVER say NEVER!!

nice to hear you would help out anyone...i would too ...but the people in charge at some companies won't......i have never heard of a TWA guy getting turned down for a job because how they got screwed! LOL
 
Lil angry are we Bob???????

Try venting your anger in a constructive way please.

Because of TWA I'm now stuck flying the 767 in St Louis til they bring you back. Guess I'll hold up your end til then, should it ever actually happen.


Of course since it will take well over a year to even furlough the rest of the guys, you have an incredibly long wait in front of you.
5 years for you at least.

My advice is to get out of aviation. You don't have the temperment for it.






Pilotbob3 said:
g4g5....

there is no way that you are not sorry you got furloughed....who wouldn't be? and if you had the crystal ball you would have gone to B6 im sure! again who wouldn't......actually i would have gone to Delta!!!!!!

its too bad that greed over took the apa and its member pilots when it came time to merge the TWA and AA seniority list. AMR gave apa the rope on which to hang themselves...and are loving watching the apa fall apart.....there will never be any "unity" at apa again...especially after this awful contract. no balls left there....my buddy at delta 5th year md 80 pay is now up to 132/hr i believe.....about 81/hr at AA what a joke.....the joke was hearing Ed white get laughed at at the senate hearings last week...that was funny!!!

AMR is busting the union and you guys let it happen with the merging of the TWA list to start...a little more humane approach to the whole thing would have made a lot of difference. why do you think there were senate hearings the other day? sick of hearing about it???? too bad!!! you will never hear the end of it......you made the bed now you must lie in it....or change it for the better...it can still be done.......that would send a great message to the company!!! do it right or have the courts order you to.....what goes around comes around and you will find that most nAAtive guys aren't going to get the jobs because of what you guys did to the TWA guys....the word is out at many HR departments and that is a fact. thats just the way it is ....neither you or I have any control over it now....unless you can talk the apa into revisiting the seniority list.......
 
Too funny

I love you guys so blinded by grief you cant even think straight.

All the good jobs taken and AA guys throwing gear for TWA furloughees..........??????? Welcome to Fantasyland.

Why do I get the distinct impression that you live this fantasy every day as your only way to deal with your situation? Does thinking that help you deal with your anger??

Ever dream it at night only to wake up and realize it ain't real??

Reality would be better for you Walter Mitty........

If you are really this bad off then see a psychiatrist.







holdon said:
G4G5

You are a piece of S!@t Enough said!

The good thing about all of this is that when true AA pukes start getting furloughed the good jobs will already be taken and if they are LUCKY enough to find something, chances are they will have to swing gear for a TWA'ers. Bummer
 
And what were the restrictions? Any of the Oz Captains lose any of their seats? Tell us about the fences?

Bob, if you think that some wana be start up like peoples will be compared to TWA for intergration purposes. You keep thinking that. My guess is that the DAL/Pan Am, ALPA/ALPA would most likly be the one that a jury would consider the closest.
 
Interesting you should bring up Krazo...I spent the better part of the last three weeks with a number of retired TW/Krazo and TW pilots and their feeling was that as bitter as they were at the time, the Krazo/TW merger was model of fairness compared with TW/AA.

And Clownpilot, ad hominum attacks only demonstrate the prima facie emptyness of your argument, IMHO.

Regards
 
G4G5,

Sorry to hear about the furlough, I feel for ALL you guys getting furloughed. It would have been nice if things had been diffrerent.
Record profits, record aircaft orders, and record hiring, Hell we all might be captains by now, including the TWA boys and gals.

Did they get the short end of stick, without a doubt. Would I have been pissed about the integration if I were over there, sure would. Would I have taken the same action as many of them? Probably. This biz is mean, and does not take prisoners.

Do I feel safe here, not in a million years, do I feel arrogant, NO!

Not hiring a furloughed AA pilot beacuse of what happened to TWA, wow talk about petty.

Unity is gone, and I have no idea when it will be back, or if it will!

Good luck to ALL furloughed AA pilots regardless of what uniform you wore 3 years ago.

AAflyer,

P.S. Clownpilot, I am a little confused at how you were FORCED into SLT? I am junior to you and could have held onto the 767/FO/I out of LGA, although it would have been a few numbers from the bottom. How much do you want to bet that your name shows up on the Preference list to goto SLT? Things that make you go HHMMMMMMM. I don't agree with some ofthe actions of the TWA guys and gals, but don't bid into SLT and blame them.
 
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Re: Lil angry are we Bob???????

Clownpilot said:
Try venting your anger in a constructive way please.

Because of TWA I'm now stuck flying the 767 in St Louis til they bring you back. Guess I'll hold up your end til then, should it ever actually happen.


Of course since it will take well over a year to even furlough the rest of the guys, you have an incredibly long wait in front of you.
5 years for you at least.

My advice is to get out of aviation. You don't have the temperment for it.


LOL,

how much more constructive can one get? plus there is no anger here....i am just stating the facts. i know you guys don't like hearing the truth.....

stuck? i see that you must have bid to be in SLT/STL in my seat in a 767 at STL...no sympathy here. you gotta be kidding. so you must have had that in your preferences huh?! BUSTED! LOL

people laugh at clowns:p
 
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