Twa 800

[siucavflight]

a racist who gets his kicks insulting jews is a liberal now?

Are you saying that Ted Turner owner off CNN who donated 1 billion dollars to the democratic party is a conservative?

 

[bocefus]

Originally Posted by bocefus
That black program did not explode in front of the witnesses nor was it subjected to public scrutiny. Hell, even today the hardware from that program is not as accessible as the TWA-800 wreckage.



That's not what you said. You said that a secret could not be kept, and that two people knowing about it was one too many. So how many people knew that the F-117 was in squadron service for over 10 years? How many pilots, crew chiefs, mechanics, tower controllers, etc? Somehow I bet it was more than 2.

And as far as public scrutiny, why were all the eyewitness reports from former military pilots ignored? Yes I will certain;y agree that most "eyewitnesses" are worthless, but a professional pilot, and a former military one at that, makes a pretty good witness for an aircraft explosion.

Umm really? I said that? When? I didn't say a secret could not be kept, but I will say that our government cannot keep a secret. You are correct about one thing though, most eyewitnesses are worthless.

 

[MissKittyKat]

Thanks for remembering all those we lost 10 years ago. I did see the tv special and it was informative. When I very first saw this tragedy as it was unfolding on tv, my heart, was like, omg it was shot down. Sometimes, for years I just thought that might have happened. The program special on tv the other day pointed some things that may be true. It was very interesting and a mechanical could be to blame and that was the conclusion.

Even more scarier (although) air travel is considered safe, is the fact that this could happen again. Boeing refused comment on this tv program. But did issue statements about integrity and goal safety of aircraft. Regardless, accidents do happen. Remember some people tampered with evidence and did their own book, and came to their own possible conclusions, and although arrested did not serve time in jail, but tried to come up with some theories.

This will always be a perplexing subject, maybe we should let it go and just remember all aboard the plane.

 

[atrdriver]

Umm really? I said that? When? I didn't say a secret could not be kept, but I will say that our government cannot keep a secret. You are correct about one thing though, most eyewitnesses are worthless.

So, the military isn't officially part of the government? What about congress? What about the president? Do you really think that during those first 10 years that the F-117 was in service that NO members of congress knew that it existed, or that the president didn't know that it existed?

 

[bocefus]

Quit being anal about this. Do you really think that comparing a supposed "cover-up" of an event that occurred in front of witnesses, was investigated to death by the most highly recognized civil aviation accident investigative organization, in addition to concurrent criminal investigations by multiple agencies to maintaining integrity of the F-117 secrecy is relevant? Oh, did I forget to mention that all recovered evidence in the supposed "coverup" is available to the public?

 

[atrdriver]

Quit being anal about this. Do you really think that comparing a supposed "cover-up" of an event that occurred in front of witnesses, was investigated to death by the most highly recognized civil aviation accident investigative organization, in addition to concurrent criminal investigations by multiple agencies to maintaining integrity of the F-117 secrecy is relevant? Oh, did I forget to mention that all recovered evidence in the supposed "coverup" is available to the public?

I'm not being anal. I am merely stating that if something other than a mechanical failure happened the secret could indeed be kept. The F-117 is just one example of that. Have you ever heard the saying that one of the best ways to keep a secret is to put it out in the open?

 

[bocefus]

Yeah, now that you mention it, it makes sense. I mean, the Trilateral commision, Bilderbergers, Skull and Bones, the whole thing.

 

[millhouse21]

I'm not being anal. I am merely stating that if something other than a mechanical failure happened the secret could indeed be kept. The F-117 is just one example of that. Have you ever heard the saying that one of the best ways to keep a secret is to put it out in the open?

I think that it depends on what the "other than mechanical failure" was. If it was a missile launched off a US Navy ship, no ********************ing way could that be kept undercover. If it was something that didn't really make the govt look bad, it could maybe be kept secret. The question is why would it?

 

[bocefus]

The reconstructed wreckage is available to the public, including conspiracy theorists and NO, none, nada, 0, zip, credible evidence has been presented to support a missile strike. That pretty much settles it for me. Of course I know the guvment might be wantin to hide that info from me. I wunder why?

 

[ArcticFlier]

Im sure you have tons of evidence to prove your theory about CNN, right? Because we all know they were so light on Clintons sexual escapades

Theory and experience are two different things. My point is based on the latter.

Not going to hijack this further.


AF

 

[kingsize]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsize
Anyways, I back my government 100%. It dosen't lie to the people... Whatever it does, it does it for a reason.

lol awesome, I'm quoted in someone's signature!

Yep, that's what I have to tell myself to sleep at night: My government would never lie to me, my government would never lie to me, my government would never lie to me, my government would never lie to me...

I'd like for someone to explain to me about Iran-Contra, about Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma City and Terry Nichol's trips to the Philippines, about Waco and the involvement of Ft Hood soldiers led by General Wesley Clark, about World Trade Center bldg 7 that somehow magically collapsed in perfect symmetry, obviously a controlled explosion, but for which the "official" story is fire and collateral damage by the WTC buildings, and about our interesting relationship with Israel...for instance, right now, why are we not getting our citizens out of Lebanon as fast as possible, why does Israel have a huge number of spies in the US tracking terrorists but does not share crucial information with us? Everyone is looking out for himself, on an individual level, on a political level, and on a national level. Mix it all up, and you get a big lumpy turd. Don't believe every official story you hear out there. They are not all true, but there are reasons for the government lying to you...you just don't know what it is, and probably don't want to know. Never put anything past your political leaders. On that note, I back up my government 100%, and will fight and kill where they tell me. I trust that the major coverups are for the longterm good of the country, sort of.

 

[Say Again Over]

Attorney for Plaintiff
JOHN H. CLARKE, Esq.
Telephone: (202) 332-3030
Plaintiff
Capt. H. RAY LAHR
(310) 459 2232
Lisa Michelson remembers the moment she saw the CIA’s video animation depicting TWA Flight 800’s death throes and the seconds in which her son was dying aboard the Paris-bound jumbo jet in July 1996.
“I don’t understand aeronautics but when I saw the CIA film of the nose coming off and the plane climbing over 3,000 feet I wanted to vomit,” the West Hills, California mother said. “I thought, ‘How can they pull this off?’
“In my own naïve way I thought about a hunter shooting a bird and hi! tting it in the head and him going back to the lodge and telling his hunting buddies how he shot this bird and it started flying up, up, up. I wonder how many of his buddies would have believed that fable. I didn’t believe the CIA either. I’m not a scientist but I do know what does and doesn’t make sense.”
On Dec. 15, a Los Angeles Federal Court judge will hear arguments about how much evidence U.S. officials must reveal to support their claims that a decapitated Boeing 747 could soar thousands of feet after 80,000 pounds of nose and cockpit were blown off. The suit seeking the information comes six years after the FBI presented the CIA-produced animated hypothesis of Flight 800’s last seconds and the National Transportation Safety Board subsequently presented its own versions.
The issue is important because the FBI, using the CIA’s analysis, and the NTSB concluded that hundreds of ! witnesses did not see a missile streaking toward the TWA jumbo jet off New York’s coast on July 17, 1996. The agencies’ officials said that what the witnesses saw was flaming fuel from the crippled airliner as it soared upward after its nose was blown off by a hypothetical catastrophic series of mechanical mishaps.
The FBI announced that there was no evidence a bomb or missile struck TWA Flight 800 and caused the deaths of all 230 passengers and crew members aboard. FBI officials said that although scores of witnesses believed they had seen some upward-bound object hit the plane, the observers were deceived by the disintegrating plane’s death spiral upward.
That so-called “zoom climb” was impossible, retired United Airlines pilot and captain H. Ray Lahr of Malibu said. It’s his suit, filed under the Freedom of Information Act, that’s being heard in Los Angeles.
Lahr, a former aviation accident investigator and safety officer, filed the suit after the NTSB refused to give him the information and calculations it used for its own “zoom climb” analysis or the information and calculations the CIA used.
“I don't believe the zoom-climb ever happened,” Lahr said. “Boeing provided before-and-after data to the NTSB, and it was published in the accident report. Eighty thousand pounds of nose and cockpit were blown off. This shifted the center-of-gravity far aft and generated about 6,000,000 foot-pounds of nose-up torque. The aircraft immediately pitched up and stalled.
“The wing probably failed right then since its center box structure had been blown apart,” he continued. “But using Boeing's data, I calculated that even if the wing had held together, the most the plane could have climbed is a few hundred feet, ! not the 3,200 feet claimed by the CIA. That is why I want the data and calculations that were used to produce the CIA and NTSB videos.”
Lahr said he tried to get the information at the NTSB’s final public hearing about the Flight 800 crash but was cut off by NTSB director Dr. Bernard Loeb. Lahr said he then exchanged letters with NTSB Chairman Jim Hall but got no answers. Lahr then filed Freedom of Information Act requests with the CIA. The CIA said it used data and conclusions provided by the NTSB. The NTSB said it couldn’t release the information because it was proprietary to Boeing. A Boeing press release said it provided “basic aerodynamic information to assist in the CIA’s analysis of the airplane’s performance (but) we are not aware of the data that was used to develop the video.”
“My appeal of the NTSB decision was refused, so my only recourse was a lawsuit,” Lahr said. The retired pilot has an engineering degree from the University of Southern California. As a member of the Air Line Pilots Association Safety Committee, he investigated eight major accidents that involved large jet airliners or freighters. Two involved aircraft that crashed into deep ocean water, just as Flight 800 did.
Lahr said other pilots who were eyewitnesses to Flight 800’s crash and aloft at the time refute the zoom-climb hypothesis. Two have filed affidavits in support of Lahr’s suit.
Retired Air National Guard helicopter pilot Maj. Fred Meyer, a Vietnam War combat veteran and an attorney, said he saw a streak of light with a trajectory like a shooting star explode near the airliner. Based on his combat experience, he said, the light was an explosive projectile, “definitely” a military warhead. He and the rescue helicopter crew, w! hich happened to be on a nearby training mission, watched the fireball immediately plummet to the water as they raced to look for survivors. There was none.
Eastwind Airlines pilot David McClaine’s aerial view of the Flight 800 fireball made him the first person to transmit the message of the tragedy to authorities. He was piloting a Boeing 737 when he saw a light ahead of him in the sky explode into a ball of flames, divide into two large streamers, and immediately fall to the water. Had Flight 800 zoom climbed, it would have done so right through McClaine’s course.
Paul Beaver, a missile specialist for the British military publishing house Jane’s, said both accounts sounded like a missile striking the passenger jet.
Lahr’s is one of two TWA-related FOIA suits moving through Federal Court.

- cont.

From previous thread

 

[Say Again Over]

On the East Coast, another engineer has taken the FBI to court in an attempt to acquire the forensic evidence about hundreds of foreign objects the FBI seized from the bodies of the crash victims during their autopsies. The evidence was never shared later with the coroner nor requested by the NTSB.
Graeme Sephton, who works at the University of Massachusetts, said he realized that, “unlike other evidence collected from the bottom of the Atlantic, the foreign body evidence is definitive because there is no chain-of-custody ambiguity. It cannot readily be explained away.”
Sephton filed his FOIA in 1998. In early 2000 the FBI said it could find only 23 pages of responsive documents relating to the objects that were removed from 89 of the victims. In July 2000, Sephton sued the FBI for its apparent withholding of documents. That three-year litigation has produced! documents confirming that substantial forensic lab data were withheld from the NTSB and the coroner. Among the 550 pages the FBI has submitted to the Federal District Court in Springfield, Mass, the FBI has surrendered only one page of actual forensic results.
One of the FBI affidavits to the court acknowledged that the FBI had not and would not do a simple keyword search in either of the two computer databases that a former FBI scientist identified as most likely containing the responsive records.
In August 2003 the District Court reaffirmed its 2001 judgment in favor of the FBI and returned the case to the First Circuit Court of Appeal in Boston for final review. On Oct. 24, (2003) the First Circuit rejected the lower court’s ruling and remanded the case back to Springfield District Court. The First Circuit directed the lower court to now finally “resolve the FOIA issues raised by ! Sephton.”
A new hearing date is pending.
Apart from the single page released to Sephton, the FBI has released only one other forensic autopsy laboratory report out of those missing hundreds, Sephton said. That report, originally classified “Secret” by the FBI, was an analysis performed by Brookhaven National Lab to evaluate 20 small (~1/4” diameter) pellets removed during autopsy of the person identified by the medical examiner as case 96-5037. The pellets were designated Item “1B-28.”
The lab report showed that a sample pellet was composed mostly of aluminum with traces of titanium, zirconium, cerium and barium.
Such compounds are consistent with incendiary pellets used in some missiles, Sephton said. The report merely concluded “unknown origin.” The details of 1B-28 were among more! than 200 fairly innocuous pages of documents released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from another independent researcher, Don Collins, in California.
Even if the remarkable incendiary components could be explained, Sephton said, the official low-velocity type fuel explosion could not shatter aluminum into small pellets.
In Los Angeles, the federal suit to dislodge the NTSB’s data about Flight 800’s alleged “zoom climb” is scheduled before Judge A. Howard Matz on Dec. 15 at 10 a.m. in Courtroom 14 at U.S. District Court, 312 N. Spring St.
Lisa Michelson is supporting Lahr’s suit in hopes she will get more information about the death of her son, Yon Rojany, who was 19 at the time of the Flight 800 incident. He was on his way to Italy to try out for the Italian basketball league.
[FONT=A!]“I never could, and still don’t, understand how our government can discount so many eye witnesses,” Michelson said. “I also couldn’t understand why these people were not allowed to testify at the NTSB hearing. Too many things just didn’t add up. The majority of people to whom I spoke thought me to be a conspiracy nut so I just stopped talking to them and tried to find out as much as I could on my own. Ray Lahr’s suit will help.” [/FONT]
INTERNET SITES PROVIDING FOIA SUITS INFORMATION AND FLIGHT 800 CRASH RESEARCH DATA. These websites are in public domain and can be published.
http://webpages.charter.net/raylahr
Website provides updates about U.S. Federal Court lawsuit seeking ! data and documents about alleged “zoom-climb” of TWA Flight 800 after the Boeing 747’s nose and First-Class area detached following mid-air explosion. Contains charts, graphics, calculations, court documents, history of suit, etc.
http://www.twa800.com
Association of Retired Aviation Professionals’ website. Contains updates of legal issues, eyewitness reports, charts, graphics, calculations, media reports, coverage, etc. at TWA Flight 800 explosion and crash. ARAP members include former military, civilian and aviation professionals who are committed to independently investigating the crash. ARAP requested the Congress conduct its own investigation.
http://www.flight800.org
Flight 800 Independent Researchers Organization website. Includes eyewitness accounts and sketches, legal and court updates, charts, graphics, illustrations, and information about radar, debris and explosives evidence relating to TWA Flight 800 incident. FIRO, founded by physicist Dr. Tom Stalcup, was formed in 1999 by a group of citizens concerned with the course of the official investigation into the crash.
www.ntsb.gov/events/TWA800/exhibits/Ex_4A_appZ.pdf
contains the transcript of Capt. David McClaine’s eyewitness account of TWA Flight 800’s destruction. McClaine was an Eastwind Airlines pilot whose jetliner was in Flight 800’s area. He radioed th! e first known report of Flight 800’s mid-air explosion

No evidence available to the public.

 

[big_al]

Say Again Over, thats just part of a massive conspiracy by the illuminati!

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats, living together...
MASS HYSTERIA!!

CE

 

[bubbers44]

Flight 800 Investigation

Google Earth is a wonderful tool for lots of things. Someone did a very thorough project of putting everything together along with the radar overlay around TWA 800.

 

[Oh-ryan]

lol awesome, I'm quoted in someone's signature!

Yep, that's what I have to tell myself to sleep at night: My government would never lie to me, my government would never lie to me, my government would never lie to me, my government would never lie to me...

I'd like for someone to explain to me about Iran-Contra, about Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma City and Terry Nichol's trips to the Philippines, about Waco and the involvement of Ft Hood soldiers led by General Wesley Clark, about World Trade Center bldg 7 that somehow magically collapsed in perfect symmetry, obviously a controlled explosion, but for which the "official" story is fire and collateral damage by the WTC buildings, and about our interesting relationship with Israel...for instance, right now, why are we not getting our citizens out of Lebanon as fast as possible, why does Israel have a huge number of spies in the US tracking terrorists but does not share crucial information with us? Everyone is looking out for himself, on an individual level, on a political level, and on a national level. Mix it all up, and you get a big lumpy turd. Don't believe every official story you hear out there. They are not all true, but there are reasons for the government lying to you...you just don't know what it is, and probably don't want to know. Never put anything past your political leaders. On that note, I back up my government 100%, and will fight and kill where they tell me. I trust that the major coverups are for the longterm good of the country, sort of.

Also, remember "New Coke" back in the early 80's and "Pepsi Clear" in the early 90's? Somehow those secrets were kept from the public right up until the day they hit store shelves. You can't tell me the government wasn't involved in that either!!!

I am thinking it's time to trade in my aluminum helmet for one that's made of lead.

 

[FN FAL]

I trust that the major coverups are for the longterm good of the country, sort of.

Immoral acts always need some sort of plausible form of justification. After all, if that act wasn't immoral, why would you need to justify it? Hmmmmm?