Twa 800

[FN FAL]

Hey FN FAL,

Do the chicks in your avatar eat a boxed lunch?

What does that have to do with the correlation between the untrustworthy eye witness accounts of the TWA-800 disaster and the trustworthy eye witness accounts of the Katrina baby throat slashings and mass rapes at the super dome?

 

[ms6073]

If any of you have ever done DoD charters, you would know explosives or ammo are not allowed in the pax cabin at any time.

As already mentioned, in general this depends on the which type of DOD personnel that are being transported as SOCOM and special ops capable units do not play by the same rules as conventional forces.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

What are the similarities, if any, between TWA 800, the Egyptian flight, and the Swissair flight that also crashed after take off from New York? Swissair (Sept 2, 1998) and Egypt Air (Oct 31, 1999) I am particularly curious about the distances apart from each other. I am not suggesting that all 3 were shot down by a missile, but I am curious about the length of time after take off, and the proximity to each other (distances).

I do support the missile theory for the TWA 800 crash for many reasons. However, I do not believe it was done by our military.

There are really no similarities here besides general location. Neither of these airplanes exploded in mid air. The evidence was pretty clear in the SwissAir crash that there was a fire in the cabin. As for the EgyptAir crash, there was no evidence of an explosion. For whatever reason it dived into the ocean nose first (probably suicide).

 

[SkyBoy1981]

What does that have to do with the correlation between the untrustworthy eye witness accounts of the TWA-800 disaster and the trustworthy eye witness accounts of the Katrina baby throat slashings and mass rapes at the super dome?

LOL. Excellent post.

 

[Ill Mitch]

What does that have to do with the correlation between the untrustworthy eye witness accounts of the TWA-800 disaster and the trustworthy eye witness accounts of the Katrina baby throat slashings and mass rapes at the super dome?

That's apples and tangerines. In the case of TWA-800, there were hundreds of witnesses, independant of each other, who describe the same event occuring.
The Superdome, that was like lining up 100 people and telling the first person "Mary was clapping at the concert...pass it on". By the time it reaches the last person it is going to turn into something completely different.

 

[AAslag]

The interim fix required crewmembers to deactivate the center tank pumps at a predetermined level. That procedure may still exist.

I was never on the Whale, this applied to the 767 also.

Oddly enough, the center tanks on our series 767's continued to siphon feed to zero. Irregardless of the boost pump switch position.

I Never blew up! At least as far as I can tell. Is this reality.....Hello, Buehler, anyone. Just digressing, sorry.

 

[FN FAL]

That's apples and tangerines. In the case of TWA-800, there were hundreds of witnesses, independant of each other, who describe the same event occuring.

The Superdome, that was like lining up 100 people and telling the first person "Mary was clapping at the concert...pass it on". By the time it reaches the last person it is going to turn into something completely different.

But, Mary WAS clapping at the concert.

 

[Dangerkitty]

But, Mary WAS clapping at the concert.

I heard she was eating a box lunch.

 

[atrdriver]

EagleRJ, Yes I did. For every expert like the deceased gentleman who came up with that secondary review, there are dozens of NTSB field investigators who actually conducted the investigation. Note the difference between those two words. Was that gentleman a structures guy? The investigators report was adopted by the full board, who at the time was chaired by Jim Hall, a gentleman who has been a warrior for the truth.

I do appreciate the fact that you've actually looked at this carefully, you're perhaps the only person on this board making this assertion who sounds like he's done enough reading and applied enough critical thought to be entitled to say he's developed an informed opinion. I just happen to think you're wrong. (You are wrong about the which is more likely question, but my question doesn't prove anything.)

You know, it doesn't really matter which is more likely. Look up likely in the dictionary. Something that is likely doesn't always happen, and something that is unlikely often does happen. There are too many unanswered pieces here to write it off as a "certain CFT" explosion. I have read and informed myself about this case, and I believe that it was shot down in some way.

BTW, how do you explain that the video that was produced to show the public what happened was produced by the CIA? The very first time in the history of aviation that the CIA aided in an accident investigation and explination.

 

[Occam's Razor]

BTW, how do you explain that the video that was produced to show the public what happened was produced by the CIA? The very first time in the history of aviation that the CIA aided in an accident investigation and explination.

Wrong. "Factish"...but wrong. The assets used were the same that have been used to investigate military mishaps that lacked credible eyewitness reports and/or physical evidence (mostly mishaps at sea).

To be honest I'm not sure exactly who owns the assets or generates the tm data. I've seen it, studied it, and put it back in the safe (as a military Mishap Board member for a fighter lost at sea with no clue what happened).

My estimate is about 100 mishaps that have had "external data" provided by a government agency. It wasn't the CIA, and it wasn't the "first".

 

[gkrangers]

9 pages later..the only thing I'm certain of is that LJDRVR is a dick.

 

[flx757]

9 pages later...

And I doubt anything has been "proven" in this discussion...nor do I think anyone's mind has been changed regarding what they believe is the "truth".

Kind of sums up this "discussion" as well as just about every other internet message board discussion, IMO.

 

[Ill Mitch]

But, Mary WAS clapping at the concert.

No one doubts that, but by the end of line of 100 people, she is going to have the clap and her eyes would have been gouged out by aliens from Area 51 who were seen mutilating some cows.

 

[atrdriver]

Wrong. "Factish"...but wrong. The assets used were the same that have been used to investigate military mishaps that lacked credible eyewitness reports and/or physical evidence (mostly mishaps at sea).

To be honest I'm not sure exactly who owns the assets or generates the tm data. I've seen it, studied it, and put it back in the safe (as a military Mishap Board member for a fighter lost at sea with no clue what happened).

My estimate is about 100 mishaps that have had "external data" provided by a government agency. It wasn't the CIA, and it wasn't the "first".

Got news for you. At the beginning of the video it states "animation by the CIA" or something to that effect. So tell me again that it wasn't the CIA???

 

[Clear-&aMillion]

TWA 800 was accidentally shot down by the US navy. It's no secret. From the moment the Navy realized what they had done, federal agencies were working night and day to recover the wreckage, and conceal from the public what had happened. They did this by conducting false investigations, forcing local agencies out of the area, stepping all over the NTSB, and threatening the media. That is the truth.

 

[LJDRVR]

9 pages later..the only thing I'm certain of is that LJDRVR is a dick.

You may be right, Greg.

I just got back from a two-day and read this whole stinkin' thread over. It occurs to me my demeanor was a bit overzealous. Everybody should believe whatever they like here; I have no desire to change anybody's mind.

Please understand there are two issues with the TWA 800 threads that get me all riled up.

• There seems to be thread of belief that a CWT explosion just couldn't happen. However, I lost my lap-swimming buddy and good friend Rob Wienman in 1989 when the CWT on the KC-135 he was co-piloting exploded at 5000' No fuel, just vapor. Digging through the accident databases reveal CWT issues are nothing new for Boeing. I tend to take it a bit more personally than I should, but Boeing CWT's have been exploding since 1961.

• I distrust my government as much as the next person, but it always puzzles me when people look at an accident like TWA 800, read some expert opinions from some outside expert source that contradicts the conclusions of those that actually performed the investigation, and believe the theorists instead. The NTSB is an incredible organization filled with smart, driven people whose only desire is to get at the truth and prevent loss of life. As I posted earlier, they are warriors for the truth, and we are all well served by them. Being a Human/Factors and Safety Systems guy, I again, tend to take it more personally than I should when somebody suggests that people as fine as those that make up the NTSB, would lie, obfuscate and falsify their work for any reason at all. They simply could not. Of course at the end of the day, it is a probable cause,

Well, that's it in as small a nutshell as I can make it. My sincere apologies to anybody I harangued, offended or otherwise beat up. It sure is fun to have a pissin' and moanin' internet fight isn't it?

 

[Annie]

Dear LJDRVR:

Like you, I once loved an industry. I loved it soo much that I could not see when it was vulnerable.

I once believed that NO university accrediting body, would give approval to any academic program, that did not measure up to, or surpass, any curriculum that had established itself as successful. I WAS WRONG! The accrediting agencies that approve our university programs today, are just rubber stamps. I am sorry, but that is FACT. When I look at this situation, as it exists in academia, and I step over to the aviation industry--I wonder how the NTSB has survived the same period of time--untouched? Unruffled by the threats? EACH INVESTIGATOR UNTHREATENED?

 

[FN FAL]

No one doubts that, but by the end of line of 100 people, she is going to have the clap and her eyes would have been gouged out by aliens from Area 51 who were seen mutilating some cows.

don't forget about the black helicopters that were seen following her around that day.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

You may be right, Greg.

I just got back from a two-day and read this whole stinkin' thread over. It occurs to me my demeanor was a bit overzealous. Everybody should believe whatever they like here; I have no desire to change anybody's mind.

Please understand there are two issues with the TWA 800 threads that get me all riled up.

• There seems to be thread of belief that a CWT explosion just couldn't happen. However, I lost my lap-swimming buddy and good friend Rob Wienman in 1989 when the CWT on the KC-135 he was co-piloting exploded at 5000' No fuel, just vapor. Digging through the accident databases reveal CWT issues are nothing new for Boeing. I tend to take it a bit more personally than I should, but Boeing CWT's have been exploding since 1961.

• I distrust my government as much as the next person, but it always puzzles me when people look at an accident like TWA 800, read some expert opinions from some outside expert source that contradicts the conclusions of those that actually performed the investigation, and believe the theorists instead. The NTSB is an incredible organization filled with smart, driven people whose only desire is to get at the truth and prevent loss of life. As I posted earlier, they are warriors for the truth, and we are all well served by them. Being a Human/Factors and Safety Systems guy, I again, tend to take it more personally than I should when somebody suggests that people as fine as those that make up the NTSB, would lie, obfuscate and falsify their work for any reason at all. They simply could not. Of course at the end of the day, it is a probable cause,

Well, that's it in as small a nutshell as I can make it. My sincere apologies to anybody I harangued, offended or otherwise beat up. It sure is fun to have a pissin' and moanin' internet fight isn't it?

I do not doubt that the NTSB is made up of skilled professionals who want to find out the truth. However, they can only determine the "truth" based on the evidence that is made available to them. The bottom line is that evidence was held private by the FBI that could possibly have swayed the NTSB's conclusion on this, such as the shrapnels of metal found in the bodies of the victims. There is absolutely no reason for the FBI to withhold such evidence in a crash unless some sort of criminal activity was involved that they do not wish for the public or the NTSB to know about.

 

[414Flyer]

I do not doubt that the NTSB is made up of skilled professionals who want to find out the truth. However, they can only determine the "truth" based on the evidence that is made available to them. The bottom line is that evidence was held private by the FBI that could possibly have swayed the NTSB's conclusion on this, such as the shrapnels of metal found in the bodies of the victims.

So they did not have access to the remains of the 747 either?? Thats a bit hard to swallow.

 

[Ill Mitch]

don't forget about the black helicopters that were seen following her around that day.

I hate black helicopters...I said as much to the MIB the last time they came and talked to me.

 

[Crossky]

And during Katrina, there was a reefer full of dead babies with their throats slit and hundreds of women were getting raped every hour in the super dome. Even the police chief said it was true, but then he had to quit his job...because the NSA told him to keep quiet about it, because it was Bush's fault.

FN FAL, that's a POOR comparison, and you know it. I'll give you a few points for ridicule however.

 

[bart]

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

Well, what is it?

 

[Annie]

Are You Serious?

 

[FN FAL]

Well, what is it?

Nahhhhh, I think think what they were saying when they beat the hell out of D. Rather was, "WHAT? Is this freak seeing Ken?"

 

[Flightjock30]

You know...other missile reports besides "Pakistan 712" were also reported by 3-4 passenger jets in the vicinity of the New Jersey Coastline several years later (circa 1999). The controller tried saying "oh, they are probably being launched from the Aberdeen Proving Grounds." He clearly was wrong..if that were the case...then PHL, BWI, IAD, DCA, etc departures would have reported seeing these missiles too!

 

[EagleRJ]

You know...other missile reports besides "Pakistan 712" were also reported by 3-4 passenger jets in the vicinity of the New Jersey Coastline several years later (circa 1999).

Pakistan 712, November 16, 1996 Audio
Preceding TWA 884 (747 JFK-Tel Aviv). TWA 884 was also in the vicinity of TWA 800 on July 17, 1996

Northwest 775, March 17, 1997 Audio

Swissair 127, March 5, 1999 Audio


There are other reports- the ATC transcripts are posted on the twa800.com site.



Something else that's been puzzling- I've mentioned this before. Remember that calendar found in the Dutch mosque in 2001 that showed a plane crashing against the New York skyline? Link
It was published three months before 9/11/01, so a lot of people thought it showed prior knowledge of the attack on the WTC.

Two questions I have: why is the aircraft depicted a 747? Why is it shown on fire and crashing into the water? Maybe it was a commemoration instead of a premonition.

 

[profile]

Wow, a lot of posts by people that have never been near an investigation, never visited NTSB, never talked to any of the investigators, let alone were involved.

Get over it. TWA 800 happened the way NTSB said it did, which is unfortunate, as now FAA is pushing full tank inerting and similar wastes of money (compared to other things that have more "bang for the buck" in safety improvement).

 

[Flightjock30]

http://hometown.aol.com/missiletwa800/part2.htm <---- MORE Missile near misses!

http://www.twa800.com/news/hull.htm <---MORE missile near misses

To Profile and all other doubters,

It was just a matter of time before an aircraft was struck!

 

[LAZYB]

<fwd>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ​

For additional information contact:

Attorney for Plaintiff
JOHN H. CLARKE, Esq.
Telephone: (202) 332-3030
Plaintiff
Capt. H. RAY LAHR
(310) 459 2232
Lisa Michelson remembers the moment she saw the CIA’s video animation depicting TWA Flight 800’s death throes and the seconds in which her son was dying aboard the Paris-bound jumbo jet in July 1996.
“I don’t understand aeronautics but when I saw the CIA film of the nose coming off and the plane climbing over 3,000 feet I wanted to vomit,” the West Hills, California mother said. “I thought, ‘How can they pull this off?’
“In my own naïve way I thought about a hunter shooting a bird and hi! tting it in the head and him going back to the lodge and telling his hunting buddies how he shot this bird and it started flying up, up, up. I wonder how many of his buddies would have believed that fable. I didn’t believe the CIA either. I’m not a scientist but I do know what does and doesn’t make sense.”
On Dec. 15, a Los Angeles Federal Court judge will hear arguments about how much evidence U.S. officials must reveal to support their claims that a decapitated Boeing 747 could soar thousands of feet after 80,000 pounds of nose and cockpit were blown off. The suit seeking the information comes six years after the FBI presented the CIA-produced animated hypothesis of Flight 800’s last seconds and the National Transportation Safety Board subsequently presented its own versions.
The issue is important because the FBI, using the CIA’s analysis, and the NTSB concluded that hundreds of ! witnesses did not see a missile streaking toward the TWA jumbo jet off New York’s coast on July 17, 1996. The agencies’ officials said that what the witnesses saw was flaming fuel from the crippled airliner as it soared upward after its nose was blown off by a hypothetical catastrophic series of mechanical mishaps.
The FBI announced that there was no evidence a bomb or missile struck TWA Flight 800 and caused the deaths of all 230 passengers and crew members aboard. FBI officials said that although scores of witnesses believed they had seen some upward-bound object hit the plane, the observers were deceived by the disintegrating plane’s death spiral upward.
That so-called “zoom climb” was impossible, retired United Airlines pilot and captain H. Ray Lahr of Malibu said. It’s his suit, filed under the Freedom of Information Act, that’s being heard in Los Angeles.
Lahr, a former aviation accident investigator and safety officer, filed the suit after the NTSB refused to give him the information and calculations it used for its own “zoom climb” analysis or the information and calculations the CIA used.
“I don't believe the zoom-climb ever happened,” Lahr said. “Boeing provided before-and-after data to the NTSB, and it was published in the accident report. Eighty thousand pounds of nose and cockpit were blown off. This shifted the center-of-gravity far aft and generated about 6,000,000 foot-pounds of nose-up torque. The aircraft immediately pitched up and stalled.
“The wing probably failed right then since its center box structure had been blown apart,” he continued. “But using Boeing's data, I calculated that even if the wing had held together, the most the plane could have climbed is a few hundred feet, ! not the 3,200 feet claimed by the CIA. That is why I want the data and calculations that were used to produce the CIA and NTSB videos.”
Lahr said he tried to get the information at the NTSB’s final public hearing about the Flight 800 crash but was cut off by NTSB director Dr. Bernard Loeb. Lahr said he then exchanged letters with NTSB Chairman Jim Hall but got no answers. Lahr then filed Freedom of Information Act requests with the CIA. The CIA said it used data and conclusions provided by the NTSB. The NTSB said it couldn’t release the information because it was proprietary to Boeing. A Boeing press release said it provided “basic aerodynamic information to assist in the CIA’s analysis of the airplane’s performance (but) we are not aware of the data that was used to develop the video.”
“My appeal of the NTSB decision was refused, so my only recourse was a lawsuit,” Lahr said. The retired pilot has an engineering degree from the University of Southern California. As a member of the Air Line Pilots Association Safety Committee, he investigated eight major accidents that involved large jet airliners or freighters. Two involved aircraft that crashed into deep ocean water, just as Flight 800 did.
Lahr said other pilots who were eyewitnesses to Flight 800’s crash and aloft at the time refute the zoom-climb hypothesis. Two have filed affidavits in support of Lahr’s suit.
Retired Air National Guard helicopter pilot Maj. Fred Meyer, a Vietnam War combat veteran and an attorney, said he saw a streak of light with a trajectory like a shooting star explode near the airliner. Based on his combat experience, he said, the light was an explosive projectile, “definitely” a military warhead. He and the rescue helicopter crew, w! hich happened to be on a nearby training mission, watched the fireball immediately plummet to the water as they raced to look for survivors. There was none.
Eastwind Airlines pilot David McClaine’s aerial view of the Flight 800 fireball made him the first person to transmit the message of the tragedy to authorities. He was piloting a Boeing 737 when he saw a light ahead of him in the sky explode into a ball of flames, divide into two large streamers, and immediately fall to the water. Had Flight 800 zoom climbed, it would have done so right through McClaine’s course.
Paul Beaver, a missile specialist for the British military publishing house Jane’s, said both accounts sounded like a missile striking the passenger jet.
Lahr’s is one of two TWA-related FOIA suits moving through Federal Court.

- cont.