Twa 800

[9GClub]

A guy at my home field is an NTSB investigator, and for what it's worth, he mentioned something about sun reflection angles being perfectly conducive to illusory optical phenomena (i.e. a 'missile') at the time of the explosion. Wish I could remember the details, he explained it well. Granted he's biased.

If it was a missile, why would whoever shot it wait until the plane was at 13k'?

 

[Guitar rocker]

I knew this TWA cptn who had flown the 747 for years. He showed me the report whereby the employees of TWA hired an independent lab to conduct analysis of some of the parts recovered from the crash. This independent lab verified that there was a film of residue on parts of the aircraft that were consistent with that of a missle. I'm sure that anyone from TWA has a copy of this report.

 

[Flightjock30]

for the last time......IT WAS A MISSILE! This is a cold hard fact

 

[Gorilla]

I don't know... a difficult case.

EagleRJ, it is not that difficult for the military to keep a dark secret. Look at the Stealth program which was black for about a decade, even with thousands of participants. There are without a doubt dozens of black programs effectively kept secret today. The fact that this particular secret is "dirty" makes it less likely to be kept, but it is possible. The crew of a sub is not numerous, and a sub may be the source of the missile.

Training missiles normally do not have live warheads. Instead, they have telemetry packages. Without the warhead, the kill action would be kinetic, but with a direct hit, the plane will come down.

The lack of a warhead makes a lack of explosive warhead chemical residue obvious, but residue from the rocket motor, while faint, as the motor may have burnt out before impact, is possible. While kero is difficult to ignite, a red hot and possibly still burning rocket motor, traversing a partly filled 747 fuel tank, will set it off and possibly make it appear as if the tank self-ignited and exploded.

I am as patriotic as anyone. But if the U.S. Navy did it, they should come clean. Look at the Vincennes, Gulf of Tonkin, and the U.S.S Iowa. Gross mistakes/cover-ups, all.

Frankly, I'm surprised that there is a "hot" Navy range East of NYC at all, given the volume of traffic on the air and ocean surface.

 

[Flightjock30]

Frankly, I'm surprised that there is a "hot" Navy range East of NYC at all, given the volume of traffic on the air and ocean surface.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800 <----Scroll to the (highlighted in blue) #8 in the text and make sure your speakers are on. This is the Pakistan Airlines 747 conversation between ATC and them that night that took action to avoid a missile it saw streak just ahead of it from left to right. This made news! But it lasted only for a day or two.

 

[soarby007]

Sounds like a missle fired from the grassy knoll, or from area 51 by a government conspiracy.

 

[retired guy]

I feel sure it was a missle, but certainly not fired from a US Navy ship. 200 plus sailors, mostly of very junior rank...what are the chances that at least one of them telling someone. Anyone that thinks that a bunch of teen aged boys (and girls) could keep that kind of a secret doesn`t know (1) teenagers, or (2) sailors.

 

[simbo]

There is a good FICTION book out there called "Night Fall" by Nelson DeMille that has some interesting ideas about 800. It's a good book and a quick read.

 

[FN FAL]

Why is the accident investigation and the video recreation done by the freaking CIA!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! That's the real question!

Central Inteligence Agency - they've been pulling the wool over the eyes of the American people for 3/4 of a century!

...Or what about the ever so quiet and secret theory about a bomb being concealed in a organ transplants shipment?

Turner: "I'd like to go back to New York."

Joubert: "You have not much future there. It will happen this way. You may be walking. Maybe the first sunny day of the spring. And a car will slow beside you, and a door will open, and someone you know, maybe even trust, will get out of the car. And he will smile, a becoming smile. But he will leave open the door of the car and offer to give you a lift."

 

[Flightjock30]

It was not a large Navy vessel that had many sailors and crew on board, it was launched from another point.

 

[FN FAL]

It was not a large Navy vessel that had many sailors and crew on board, it was launched from another point.

So, it wasn't a Frigate?

 

[USMCmech]

IT WAS A MISSILE!!! I could get arrested for leaking this out, but my friend works in the FBI and TOLD ME a DAY AFTER the crash it was a missile!

No way could you be arrested for disclosing a government cover up. Unless you signed a non disclosure agreement for some high level national security information you wouldn't even be charged. It's called freedom of speach and press.

So tell us what your freind who works at the FBI heard from their freind who knew a guy on the investigation team.



The fuel tank explosion is hard to swallow, but a missle impact is even more skecthy. I specifically asked one of the stinger techs wether or not he thought TWA 800 was shot down by a MANPAD. He replied that even with prior notice and planned he didn't think he could make that shot. Certianlly anybody who was untrained and standing on a rocking boat off Long Islan couldn't.

FYI the stinger rocket motor burns out at aprox 12,500, keitetic energy can carry it a bit higher. A hit at 13,500 would be the equivilant of a bullzeye at 1,000 yards with a rifle.

edit: I ckecked and Wilkipedia said that the max altitude was 12,500. Not nessacerally that the rocket motor burns up to that altitude.

 

[FN FAL]

The fuel tank explosion is hard to swallow, but a missle impact is even more skecthy. I specifically asked one of the stinger techs wether or not he thought TWA 800 was shot down by a MANPAD. He replied that even with prior notice and planned he didn't think he could make that shot. Certianlly anybody who was untrained and standing on a rocking boat off Long Islan couldn't.

FYI the stinger rocket motor burns out at aprox 12,500, keitetic energy can carry it a bit higher. A hit at 13,500 would be the equivilant of a bullzeye at 1,000 yards with a rifle.

So it was a Frigate?

 

[AC560]

I heard that all the Jew's in the world were called the day of the flight and told not to fly TWA that day as well.

 

[Captain Oveur]

It was an explosion in the center fuel tank....sorry, conspiracy theorists.:nuts:

 

[Flightjock30]

I CLEARLY posted a link that contains a recorded conversation between a Pakistan International 747 and a Boston Center Controller. The Pakistan pilot states clearly that he saw a projectile (he calls its a firecracker-like object) streak from left to right at 16,000 and it continued to climb! The last words heard on the recording by an anonymous pilot is "firecrackers dont go up to 16,000!"

 

[ms6073]

FYI the stinger rocket motor burns out at aprox 12,500, keitetic energy can carry it a bit higher. A hit at 13,500 would be the equivilant of a bullzeye at 1,000 yards with a rifle.

My experience with the older Redeye system was that the missile motor burns for only a brief period of time (< 6 seconds) as the missile accelerates/climbs and while it may still be accelerating, after the motor burnout, it is gliding and dissipating energy. The newer FIM-92A which superseded the older Redeye, has an initial boost phase which accelerates the missile to Mach 2.2 within 2 seconds. Top-speed at motor burnout can be as high as Mach 2.6 but if no target is hit after 17 (± 2) seconds, the missile self-destructs.

 

[Chairman]

Great book,

Called "Night Fall"

Although fictional dicsucces many of the acpects of the accident and investigation.

 

[CL60]

Nightfall

DeMille theorized that a kinetic missile, (which would leave no explosive evidence), fired from a surface vessel brought down the aircraft. His research also stated that another aircraft, (an El Al flight), just a few minutes behind the TWA flight and was the intended target. Although fictional in nature, the story is supported with good research and does bring many questions to mind. Especially regarding the eyewitness accounts of trained observers.

 

[EagleRJ]

A guy at my home field is an NTSB investigator, and for what it's worth, he mentioned something about sun reflection angles being perfectly conducive to illusory optical phenomena (i.e. a 'missile') at the time of the explosion.

The aircraft took off at 8:16pm local time, and the explosion occurred at 8:30pm. Local sunset was 8:20pm. The sky was still light, but the sun was already below the horizon. I don't know of any optical phenomena that could be caused by the sun after sunset.

If it was a missile, why would whoever shot it wait until the plane was at 13k'?

Why would terrorists hit the World Trade Center so early in the morning, before many people had arrived at work? No one ever said they were good planners.
Their target, another 747 that departed at around the time of both TWA 800 and the Pakistan flight that reported the missile, was probably TWA 884. Destination: Tel Aviv.

My experience with the older Redeye system was that the missile motor burns for only a brief period of time (< 6 seconds) as the missile accelerates/climbs and while it may still be accelerating, after the motor burnout, it is gliding and dissipating energy. The newer FIM-92A which superseded the older Redeye, has an initial boost phase which accelerates the missile to Mach 2.2 within 2 seconds. Top-speed at motor burnout can be as high as Mach 2.6 but if no target is hit after 17 (± 2) seconds, the missile self-destructs.

Interesting.... I couldn't remember the timeout number.

Climbing vertically at Mach 2.2, if my math is correct, works out to a climb rate of approximately 160,000 FPM. So assuming a combined boost/coast time of 17 seconds, the missile could be up over 40,000' by the time it times out and self-destructs. Even during the coast phase, it is still actively tracking the target, and would have no problem keeping a slow-moving 747 centered in its seeker head.



The subject of TWA 800 has always ticked me off. As much as I disliked Bill Clinton, I agreed with his decision to cover up this attack. He rightly knew that acknowledging a terrorist attack on an airliner
would panic the flying public and throw the airline industry into financial ruin. Even though that happened anyway five years later, I think it was the right call at the time.
Now, however, it's time to come clean about what happened on that day. The American people have now seen worse, and we owe it to the families of those lost to make the real cause public.