Turned down a CAL job offer today

[bearcat]

I never thought I would be turning down a job offer from a legacy airline, but I turned down a CAL job today to hold out for a better airline.

I've heard of too many people leaving there recently, and I cannot bring myself to take the massive pay-cut and no insurance for 6-months when I know that I can probably get an interview with SWA, UPS, FedEx, DAL, UAL, etc. in the near future.

I am making good money right now, so I would rather not settle for working under such a horrible contract. I agree that it will probably get better there, but probably not for a while.

Am I going to regret it?

You will if you don't get hired at any of the others you mentioned...a bird in hand....

 

[Glacialfury1906]

I agree with Pocono and Fins. Some of you guys are way off base, and coming off quite irrational. I'd like to interview at CAL, and I'd probably go if hired and make a career of it. The earnings hit, however, isn't as temporary as many make it out to be. The financial hole you create isn't filled when your earnings simply catch up to what they were. I've been running some numbers and I think Fins numbers may even be on the low side as to how long it'd take to break even... especially considering the looming age 65 change that seems (unfortunately) inevitable in the next 5 years. Open skies seems like a certainty in the next 10 years as well, I don't think that will help the scenario.

If you think you're going to leave CAL, then I certainly wouldn't take the pay cut to go... because you'll never make the money back before you leave. Even for the 737 type, whats a 737 type cost, 8k? You're talking an initial 40k+ pay cut for an 8k type.

Just the unfortunate financial facts. This is assuming you've got 5+ years at one of the better (relatively speaking) regionals. Obviously a Great Lakes FO isn't going to use the same equation.

Is CAL's contract going to be exactly the same forever? Are they never, ever for the rest of your career going to get a pay raise or a better contract at CAL? Is your "good" regional never, ever going to take a pay cut and will always be there till you retire? Are you going to have a bad day the day you finally land that huge FEDEX interview and not be offered the job?

It's funny when i hear guys "running the numbers" on their career. Like everybody's contract is going to be exactly where it is for the remaining 20,25,30,35 years of your career. People can't be that short sighted. Especially when you fly for a vendor....

I'm sure it will all work out for all of us.......

 

[gcsass]

with age 65 coming and open skies already here(..in 08) I would grab a chair now before the music stops...but I could be wrong.......

 

[Phrogs4ever]

For the last time...

...you will not be without medical insurance at CAL for six months. You will be on a supplemental plan that provides full medical coverage. I covered my family for $230/month with a $1000 deductable.

First year pay sucks, but will be addressed in the near future. I still grossed over $40,000 without trying. The wife worked part time and we lived on a sensible budget. Not the ideal situation, but very workable. Grossed $72,000 second year on the 737.

You will be able to hold any domicile in no more than six months.

To say that "many" people are leaving is not an accurate statement. Some people have left during the first year when it is easier to do so, for companies that have better pay and work rules. We WILL be that company in two years (or so).

Big retirements in the near future. Even considering the Age 65 rule, we'll retire another 400 over the next year and a half.

Over 65 airplanes arriving over the next two years, net growth of ~50 planes. All of which are LNB or widebody.

If a bid came out today, I could hold EWR Captain! Two years on property.

During indoc, we were told hiring would be strong through 2010 then start to taper down a bit. People told me they were blowing smoke and it won't last. Well, two years later we are still hiring strong and will still go into the summer understaffed. Unless something major happens, this train is going to keep on rolling.

The loads are continually going up, and with a shift in the pilot culture I have absolute confidence in getting a substantial boost in overall QOL with our next contract.

All that being said, I do love working here but we have a long way to go. I'd much rather be on the inside of the company working to make it a great place to be while gaining seniority in leaps and bounds, than on the outside poo-pooing the shortcomings and waiting for a job that someone else had to fight hard to make great land in my lap.

 

[thor2j]

I think your numbers for how long it will take you to recoup are a little off. I was at Eagle for 12 years, making almost 100k. Yes first year at CAL sucks but after 3 years hourly rate is comparable, and I figure 5-6 to make back what I lost. Also until very recently UPS was even lower than CAL starting pay, nobody was saying lets pass that up.

SWA is a great company, but I have seen the numbers. If you do a 25 year total pay to total pay with CAL the numbers are within $50k (SWA ahead of course). Not much when spread over 25 years. Hourly rate is better at SWA for the first 5 years or so, then it becomes a little closer. At cal you have a 12.75% B fund(soon). Not counting 401ks or anything , just company payed stuff. And hopefully CALs pay has nowhere to go but up(hopefully), SWA is already at top. Not saying they will go down, but they maybe flat for a while.

To each is own, but passing up a major to me is something that is really hard to do. There are many people that will never make it to that level.

 

[Powda5]

You look at first year pay, but have you considered 4th year pay as a captain at CAL? Or maybe you just want to sit on the 777 at $99 an hour at that point (if I remember right). It's not even a long shot, and since it appears your decision is monetarily based, you would have looked at this, no? It really negates the 1st year pay in the decision making process you used in your post.

If you're wanting to go to UAL, uh...you're going to start at low pay rates, too, and their contract is up in '09, merger talks are dying down but they are in a rough spot to come in as a newhire. By the time you were hired there, it is likely to be 6 months to a year from now anyway....time you could have been ticking off at CAL. That first year pay at all airlines is so similar....even F9 is in the 30/hr range. It isn't acceptable, but I can't see how it's a deciding factor. It is really more of a 'that's really going to suck' factor.

 

[ERJpusher]

Sure, luv life working your a$$ off..believe it or not SWA isn't for everyone.

You're right, working hard for a living isn't for everyone (see "democrat"). But I can put in a full work month that pays over 100 and get 19 days off. How many days per month do you have to work for the same pay?

If I'm at work, I want to work. I don't want to spend time away from my family just sitting around in some stupid hotel.

 

[johnny taliban]

Bullsh*t dude - do whatever you think is best for you. No one has to turn down any job they will enjoy, whatever the pay is. That's called freedom, Mr. Taliban. Nice name by the way.

lighten up francis,

and whats with the language, I thought this was a family board. The name is a joke since you obviously don't get the humor. Let me help you out. In my profile you will see that my current position is "behind bars". You see, I am making fun of the real johnny taliban. Get it? And before you get on your high horse about serving your country let me state that I did as well.

good day

 

[GogglesPisano]

AA pilots just asked for a 30% raise. Contracts can and do change.

 

[GogglesPisano]

...you will not be without medical insurance at CAL for six months. You will be on a supplemental plan that provides full medical coverage. I covered my family for $230/month with a $1000 deductable.

.

Is this what they offer in Indoc? Are those numbers fairly accurate?

Thanks

 

[Palomino]

Is this what they offer in Indoc? Are those numbers fairly accurate?

Thanks

love the avatar, Goggles. is that 'The Thinker' or 'The Stinker'?

i got supplemental insurance on my own. single w/ no kids. $105/month and a $500 deductible as i recall. no dental or vision. i had a $10,000 emergency care policy with State Farm already...so i felt ok plowing thru the first 5.2 months of probation until i gained company coverage.

it's absolute b.s. that there is a waiting period for health care coverage for newhire MAJOR AIRLINE pilots at CAL. it's absolute b.s. that the starting wage is $29.97/hr for a newhire MAJOR AIRLINE pilot at CAL. i dealt with it and i don't want anyone else to have to. i will never forget that precarious time in my career. i intend to help make it better. just as good parents want better for their children...so should fellow workers want their legacy to be an improved workplace for those who follow after.

times are changing. i look forward to vast improvements in the next COLLECTIVE bargaining agreement. collective means all pilots working together towards a better life for all.

 

[AlbieF15]

As a coach I've seen the "comfortable" senior Regional captain quite a bit. Guys get comfy at 70-80k, good schedules, and mimimum hassles. They also are proabably a bit risk adverse at times. However--even on the post 9/11 contracts legacies offer some unique benefits you just don't find at the regionals, and the POTENTIAL for some better snap-back contracts. It seems to me the age 40 thing hits a lot of regional guys--they realize to get 20 years at a major they better get off their duff and get moving. Saw 2 Pinnacle guys at FDX that span the gamut--one hired at 26 and the other at 40. Neither guy was "wrong", but the lifelong earnings of Mr Aggressive 26 year old will be much, much higher. Its not always about money, but I say get to a company you can retire from as soon as possible.

 

[Porch]

I once had big eyes and dreams...turning down an offer at a great airline in anticipation (sp) of an interview with a better airline??? WTF? There is a great chance you'll never get that interview. If you do get the interview you want, there is a great chance you won't get the job...Even if you can land a plane on the head of a pin. This process can and will take years. Where as if you took Continental, you'd be a 3rd year fo getting ready for upgrade. Then you would be in a position to get the dream interview and you'd increase the probability of getting hired ten fold. The interviews your competing for are the interviews that the guys you mentioned are leaving Cont. are getting. I know of several super qualified pilots with contacts and connections comming out of their arse. More are turned down than hired. It's not easy out there. I would deal with the bad pay and no insurance for the first year, rather than wait for an interview you'll probably never get. Nice job burning that bridge...Why the heck did you apply in the first case? Sorry brother, but I think you made a poor decision.

 

[Palomino]

and i think he's a flamebait thrower...

btw: i turned down the top job at Microsoft and didn't answer Warren Buffet's calls when he wanted to buy me out

 

[Scrapdog]

lighten up francis,

and whats with the language, I thought this was a family board. The name is a joke since you obviously don't get the humor. Let me help you out. In my profile you will see that my current position is "behind bars". You see, I am making fun of the real johnny taliban. Get it? And before you get on your high horse about serving your country let me state that I did as well.

good day

I'm Scrapdog, but you can certainly call me Francis if you'd like. With any SA whatsoever, you can see with my one vulgar word (and that was with asterisks), I think it was hardly offensive and instead said to prove a point more emphatically. And this was nothing compared to some other rants I've seen on here - a family board??? come on man, give me a break! Now I get your humor seeing the behind bars thing...yep, I get it - funny I guess. Never did I say anything about being on a high horse and serving my country...as a matter of fact I didn't mention it at all. And BTW, thanks for serving yours. Take a deep breath...feel better?

Back to the point at hand - a guy should never feel like he has "to hold the bar" because he takes a job offer that may be crappier (didn't say the "s" word - didn't want to offend anyone) than you would. If he likes it and it feeds his family, then by all means - take it. That's all I was trying to say.

You have a good day yourself,
Sincerely Francis aka. Scrapdog

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Is this what they offer in Indoc? Are those numbers fairly accurate?

Thanks

During indoc they gave out a couple of brochures. You figure out what works best for you and set it up yourself. I'm not sure what everyone else chose, but that's what I paid for my plan.

 

[learflyer]

it's absolute b.s. that there is a waiting period for health care coverage for newhire MAJOR AIRLINE pilots at CAL.

My wife was hired as an of counsel at a MAJOR law firm in a large city.
She had to wait 6 months for hers to kick in as well. guess whatever the profession these days, we all get shafted.

 

[Charlie Brown]

OMG! Seriously?

Anyone that would do that is got to be the biggest f***ing moron on the planet!

Yes, seriously. Moron, I don't know about that but I agree with you their decisions were highly questionable. I can think of at least 20 guys/gals who did this, and I know there are more.

 

[flyingitalian]

Turning down a job because you "heard some first year guys were leaving CAL," is in my opinion not the smartest decision. I would at least maybe find out why they were leaving, or even if it is true. Im sure every airline has first year guys that are leaving for a number of reasons, some having nothing to do with the airline, and more with the job itself or other opportunities. You would probably come off looking better if you just simply stated some of your other reasons, first year pay cut, cost of insurance, possibility of merger, hub cities not desirable to you, and many many more.

I can remember in 01 when I left COEX and a spot at CAL for SWA, one of my classmates telling me I was crazy for leaving for another reginal. "Hey come on, we are all going to be CAL captains in 3 years." We may actually be holding a CA spot at the same time, but that decision I made had different perspectives at different times in the last 6 years. Time will tell.

None of us know what is going to happen next year, much less twenty or thirty years from now. I think this job that we do, and some of us enjoy and make good livings at, will be gone in the next twenty years. We will be replaced by computer, foreign pilots, autoflight and more sofisticated methods of travel. Enjoy it while its here.

 

[j41driver]

...I cannot bring myself to take the massive pay-cut and no insurance for 6-months

If this was a big part of your reasoning then why did you even interview? It's not like the 1st year payscale and insurance info is a big secret. Short term sacrifice...long term gain. I'd rather be at CAL than flying an ERJ but to each their own. Good luck!

 

[Heavy Set]

You look at first year pay, but have you considered 4th year pay as a captain at CAL? Or maybe you just want to sit on the 777 at $99 an hour at that point (if I remember right). It's not even a long shot, and since it appears your decision is monetarily based, you would have looked at this, no? It really negates the 1st year pay in the decision making process you used in your post.

If you're wanting to go to UAL, uh...you're going to start at low pay rates, too, and their contract is up in '09, merger talks are dying down but they are in a rough spot to come in as a newhire. By the time you were hired there, it is likely to be 6 months to a year from now anyway....time you could have been ticking off at CAL. That first year pay at all airlines is so similar....even F9 is in the 30/hr range. It isn't acceptable, but I can't see how it's a deciding factor. It is really more of a 'that's really going to suck' factor.

What if you don't want to be based in EWR? What if you want to live somewhere west of there? That 3 or 4 year upgrade to captain is only available in EWR I would bet, so if you want to live anywhere west of there that upgrade would not be there. How long until you can hold a widebody in IAH as an fo? Probably a lot longer than EWR. So, a lot of the Continental upgrading and moving up to widebody has to be done in EWR, which may not be for everyone. If you want to live in IAH or commute from somewhere on the West Coast, it looks like you will stay on the 737 for awhile in IAH. How senior is 777 FO or 757/767 FO in IAH?

 

[Powda5]

Since his decision seemed monetarily based, I assumed he would chase money, so I posted relative to EWR.

75-767 fo in IAH goes junior--to newhires, even. 777 fo in IAH is more senior than 737 ca.

737 ca in IAH is 5 years, if I figured right.

I live west and commute to IAH as well. I tried EWR...no fun commuting.

 

[MECH]

Since his decision seemed monetarily based, I assumed he would chase money, so I posted relative to EWR.

75-767 fo in IAH goes junior--to newhires, even. 777 fo in IAH is more senior than 737 ca.

737 ca in IAH is 5 years, if I figured right.

I live west and commute to IAH as well. I tried EWR...no fun commuting.

757 in IAH is not junior. There has not been a new hire going to the 757 in IAH for over a year now.

As for the amount of time it will take, to get your money back. I think it will less then 10 years. Yes the pay rates suck from year 1 to 5. But you can still make 65,000 to 75,000 year 2 on the 757. And by year 3 be at 85,000 plus. If you cost it out it takes about 5 years to get back what you lost the first year.

I think everyone is basing their numbers on being a reserve pilot. New hires are on reserve an average of 8 weeks. In EWR it is only 6 weeks of reserve.

There is also contract 08 coming up right away. With the new union leadership and all the new pilots, things good get alot better here!!

 

[Heavy Set]

Since his decision seemed monetarily based, I assumed he would chase money, so I posted relative to EWR.

75-767 fo in IAH goes junior--to newhires, even. 777 fo in IAH is more senior than 737 ca.

737 ca in IAH is 5 years, if I figured right.

I live west and commute to IAH as well. I tried EWR...no fun commuting.

So, I guess you won't be taking the early command in EWR since you want to live west. I think there are a lot of people who don't want to live close to EWR, and a commute there may be tough. That throws the early captain upgrades out for a lot of people who want to live somewhere else. If you live near EWR though, you have won the lottery. How big is the IAH 757/767 category? It seems like most of your widebody flying is out of EWR.

 

[ToThePain]

I never thought I would be turning down a job offer from a legacy airline, but I turned down a CAL job today to hold out for a better airline.

I've heard of too many people leaving there recently, and I cannot bring myself to take the massive pay-cut and no insurance for 6-months when I know that I can probably get an interview with SWA, UPS, FedEx, DAL, UAL, etc. in the near future.

I am making good money right now, so I would rather not settle for working under such a horrible contract. I agree that it will probably get better there, but probably not for a while.

Am I going to regret it?

This has to be flame bait but I'll reply anyway. Why did you go through the effort of getting hired at CAL, i.e the interview and sim work if you didn't want the job? With one thread search you could have discovered everything you needed to know about the insurance offered the first 6 months and that while not great would get you by. I'm not saying CAL is the only place to work or the best but you don't seem to have any plan.
How do you plan on getting an interview with SWA, UPS, FedEx, DAL, or UAL? Do you know people that can push your resume? SWA is a great company to work for but seem to only hire about 1/3 of their applicants and thats only if they call you for an interview. After that you need the type which will add on to the time it will take to get hired, unless you are willing to get a type now, but thats 5k-6k out the window with no promise of a job.
UPS and FED EX are great companies but are also very competitive to get on with. Unless you are negligent on updating your overall hours listed on this board you have little to no chance on getting called up for an interview. There are plenty of guys that have over 3k multi engine plane commander time that are waiting to get called, and then theres always that pesky "needing someone inside" to walk your package through.
UAL is struggling right now but will turn it around. There starting pay is the same as CAL but they still have 700 on furlough. Deltas starting pay is better but you HAVE to have someone walk your stuff through, I know this because a guy from my squadron just got hired there. American's pay is 35/hour starting and they still have 2500 furloughed. Northwest is $30/hour with 1500 on furlough.
All this time you are waiting and you will not get a seniority number, will not be a part of contract negotiations with any of these carriers. In the second year at CAL you could be making $72/hour as a B777 FO. Yes its possible because I just started year 2 and am finishing up training as we speak. They hired 8 new people into the 777 in January.
Just my opinion......

 

[lrn2fly]

Sorry for the small thread highjack... but will CAL hire without the 4 year college degree if you have quality flight time. I know its not required but I hear they will not hire you. It's my dream job and its discouraging even with 90 credits done because thats still several years away from being completed at part time status and Im already 38.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

They will, if you have an excellent letter or something way up and above. But right now they have over 28000 apps on file. (That's coming from my brothers wife's, sister, who is sleeping with the cabbie drivers sister(ya, it's cheating) who went to a party with the this guy who said he was a pilot to get her into the sack. Whatever. They do hire people without them, but you are fighting an uphill battle right now. Keep going. Don't stop, get the earliest degree you can. Don't try the 5 year full doctoral plan. Underwater basket weaving. Who cares, just keep trucking. Good Luck.

 

[turbinej]

You don't have to pay cobra, you get temp insurance and that cost my family 100 dollars a month. A lot of state have programs for the kids for full 100% coverage through Blue Cross Blue Shield. That was $5 a month for unlimited kids. Once the year is over life gets better. I though of the same process as you Pocono pilot, but went ahead and took the job and don't regret it either. Look at other legacy airlines their pay is not much better first year anyways except DAL and AA

 

[minrest]

I think that the fact that you are currently at XJT has a lot to do with your perception of life at CAL. XJT has probably 60 to 70 pilots that turned down the flow through to CAL a couple of years ago. Most of these pilots did so because of fear of the unknown. CAL was on the verge of bankruptsy and had just signed a concessionary contract. XJT was doing well financially and had an industry leading contract. I believe (actually I know in a few cases) that most of these pilots if they had the chance to do it again would go to CAL in a heartbeat.

Misery loves company. While probably unintentional, these guys are very persuasive at disseminating their opinions of the virtues of staying at Express vs. going to CAL. Many of them are Chief Pilots, check airmen, and management. They, along with the 3,000 other XJT pilots that feel slighted due to the loss of CPA simply take a lot of rumors and half-truths and blow them up.

As for the pilots that have gone to CAL. We tend not to tell those who remained at XJT how much we enjoy our jobs (by the way, I don't speak for everyone. Some people are unhappy and always will be). We have a lot of friends that stayed at XJT and feel that telling them possitive aspects of life at CAL is similar to telling your best friend how much you enjoy sleeping with the girl they could have had.

If it truly was your dream to work at CAL then why the heck wouldn't you go and check it out rather than listen to rumors?

Also, what do your friend(s) that sponsored you to get hired at CAL have to say?

-minrest

 

[bearcat]

So, I guess you won't be taking the early command in EWR since you want to live west. I think there are a lot of people who don't want to live close to EWR, and a commute there may be tough. That throws the early captain upgrades out for a lot of people who want to live somewhere else. If you live near EWR though, you have won the lottery. How big is the IAH 757/767 category? It seems like most of your widebody flying is out of EWR.

If you are going to commute what is the difference where you commute to? I can tell you from someone who has and had terrible/ not so terrible commutes that 5 hours in a J/S is just as bad as 2. You still have the anus pain of the commute.....you may as well commute to the junior domicile....within reason. The commute to the 737 ewr is terrible. Much better in IAH, but everything else is very commutable.

The bottom line with this thread is who would hold out?? What makes you think that when you hold out for someone else that they are going to extend a job offer to you?? If you are gung hu on SWA b/c you live in PHX...smart decision....they will re-interview you. If you live in LAX and you turned down the offer....I would say you aren't very smart, but that is me. In less than 2 years I am nearly 20% up the seniority list at CAL. Great company, great future (for now) and enourmous movement....regardless of age 65.

Good luck