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Transportation SEC wonders about DL--NW merge

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General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
UPDATE 1-US transport chief ponders Delta-Northwest merger
Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:50 AM ET
(Adds Delta, Northwest declining comment, background)
By Lucy Hornby
SHANGHAI, Jan 10 (Reuters) -U.S. Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta suggested on Tuesday that a merger between U.S. airlines Northwest Airlines (NWACQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research) and Delta Air Lines (DALRQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research) could result from the latest round of industry restructuring.
The U.S. airline industry has been battered by rising fuel costs, weak revenue and low-fare competition, leading some carriers, including Delta and Northwest, into bankruptcy.
"I sometimes wonder whether or not ... Delta and Northwest will come out as a merged carrier," Mineta told an audience of business executives in Shanghai, adding he was just "thinking out loud."
Representatives of Delta and Northwest declined to comment on Mineta's remarks. Both carriers said they were focused strictly on restructuring.
Mineta said he expected carriers UAL Corp. (UALAQ.OB: Quote, Profile, Research) , parent of United Airlines Inc., and Aloha Airlines to emerge from bankruptcy protection in February.
Mineta is not the first industry expert to predict consolidation in the ailing airline industry. And analysts have speculated on the possibility of a Delta/Northwest merger.
The two carriers, the third and fourth largest respectively in the United States, filed for bankruptcy on the same day in September.
At the time, analysts noted that the two have little overlap in their domestic routes, a factor that makes a merger prospect enticing. Internationally, Delta has prominence on Atlantic routes, while Northwest has more flights to the Pacific region.
However, the companies' mismatched aircraft fleets could pose innumerable problems for a combination. The two carriers operate a combined fleet of more than 1,200 aircraft. But the only aircraft model the two have in common is the Boeing 757, one analyst said.
The two carriers also would need large amounts of exit financing and creative management to make a merger work, analysts have said. Some said Delta and Northwest may we seek mergers, but not with each other.
At least one carrier is using a merger as a lifeline to stay in business. US Airways, which left bankruptcy last year, merged with America West to form a new carrier named US Airways Group (LCC.N: Quote, Profile, Research) .
"We're going to have to see consolidation ... right now we do have too many seats following too few passengers," Mineta said.
Higher costs and lower plane utilization would continue to hobble airlines running 'hub-and-spoke' operations, he said. He noted that lower cost carriers like Southwest Airlines (LUV.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Jet Blue had utilization rates of 78-82 percent, versus 45-48 percent for the hub-and-spoke carriers.
"Until the remaining legacy carriers do something about extracting themselves from a hub-and-spoke operation, I'm not sure they are going to be very successful."
Mineta, who toured Shanghai's new deepwater container port on Tuesday, cautioned that the United States should not become the "broken link" in moving goods and people.
"American companies are expressing growing dissatisfaction over our ability to deliver products efficiently in and out of the U.S.," Mineta said.
But he said rail companies were investing in trans-continental track at the expense of the "last mile," while land and track issues made it costly for the United States to even contemplate high-speed passenger rail. (Additional reporting by Kyle Peterson in Chicago and Paritosh Bansal in New York)


I see an eventual merge, with 5 year fences for aircraft. The NW guys that could not retire early (since they do not have the lump sum option like we did) will retire within 5 years, and that will make it more seamless. Both companies will (IMO) restructure first---meaning they will "rightsize" their own numbers and fleets---and then come out together. MEM and CVG will eventually go away, and we will have hubs in MSP, DTW, ATL, NYC, SLC, ANC, and a combined crew base in LA. This is all speculation of course.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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I understand that. But when the Transportation Sec says something aloud at a conference in China, it may have some merrit. Why would he bring that up? Sounds like he wouldn't turn it down, and that is a big first step--approval of something that big. You never know......


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
-- I see an eventual merge, with 5 year fences for aircraft.

Hahahahaha ... the 20-yr. Roberts Award fence hasn't even come down yet at NW.
 
81Horse said:
-- I see an eventual merge, with 5 year fences for aircraft.

Hahahahaha ... the 20-yr. Roberts Award fence hasn't even come down yet at NW.

Yes, and NW was the aggressor in the NW/RP merger. Not anymore. Both DL and NW are bankrupt. No one will be the aggressor.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
-- No one will be the aggressor.

Well, maybe. Still, both sides will feel they have "equities" that must be protected at all costs. You know, deck chairs, Titanic, etc.
 
You will see 20+ year fences on the 38-747's, DAL brings none of these to the table. NWA has 22- DC10's (24 on order over the next 5 years replace these). They also have 15-A330's. DAL only has 8 -777's. Their is no way the NWA guys, or any arbitrator will consider that a merger of equals.

DAL guys will have looooooooooooooooog fences.

The bottom line is Maneta was just spouting off. This makes NO sence at all. Only the 757's are similar. Where does the cost savings come from? Where does the money to buy new aircraft come from?
 
G4G5 said:
You will see 20+ year fences on the 38-747's, DAL brings none of these to the table. NWA has 22- DC10's (24 on order over the next 5 years replace these). They also have 15-A330's. DAL only has 8 -777's. Their is no way the NWA guys, or any arbitrator will consider that a merger of equals.

DAL guys will have looooooooooooooooog fences.

The bottom line is Maneta was just spouting off. This makes NO sence at all. Only the 757's are similar. Where does the cost savings come from? Where does the money to buy new aircraft come from?

Delta also has 767-400s and a significant number of 767-300s and ERs. A ton of 757s and many 800s. NWA largest category is the DC-9. Seeing as how the 777 rates at Delta are higher than 747 rates at NWA, why would a Delta guy make the move to a lower paying aircraft? Lets hope both NWA and Delta guys can get the pay up in the near future and if a merger does occur, work together for the betterment of the profession. I am not sure I would consider it a merger of equals either.
 
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G4G5 said:
You will see 20+ year fences on the 38-747's, DAL brings none of these to the table. NWA has 22- DC10's (24 on order over the next 5 years replace these). They also have 15-A330's. DAL only has 8 -777's. Their is no way the NWA guys, or any arbitrator will consider that a merger of equals.

Your absolutely right, DAL has far more wide bodied aircraft.

NWA has 45 B747s + 22 DC-10s + 18 A330s= 85 wide bodied aircarft

DAL has 122 B767s + 8 777s = 130 wide bodied aircraft.

DAL also has far more 757s 121 vs. 72

DAL has 136 MD88/90s vs NWAs 159 DC-9s

and only 113 737s vs NWAs 153 Airbi

http://www.airsafe.com/events/usfleet.htm

Yeah, your right, this would definitely not be a merger between equals.:rolleyes:
 
800Dog said:
Delta also has 767-400s and a significant number of 767-300s and ERs. A ton of 757s and many 800s. NWA largest category is the DC-9. Seeing as how the 777 rates at Delta are higher than 747 rates at NWA, why would a Delta guy make the move to a lower paying aircraft? Lets hope both NWA and Delta guys can get the pay up in the near future and if a merger does occur, work together for the betterment of the profession. I am not sure I would consider it a merger of equals either.

You guys need to get a grip and take a CLOSE look at the current trend in pay scales at other ALPA legacy carriers. What is the 767 considered at UAL, USAir and CAL? I'll give you one hint it's not a wide body. No legacy carrier, not even AA pays the 767 as a wide body.

The reality is the 767 will be grouped into the same pay class as the, (same type rating) 757. Just like it's done at CAL, USAir and UAL.

That leaves just 8-777's, and the reality is that those aircraft have NO future at a combined NWA/DAL. NWA has already committed to the A330. Currently they have 15 with another 24 on order to replace their 22- DC10's. If a merger were ever to be a real possibility those aircraft would be sold, to raise cash or returned to the lessors prior to any seniority integration. Leaving the DAL pilots with NO wide bodies. This makes the integration process simple for the arbitrators.

LONG and HIGH fences on the 38 747's and 22 DC10's (real wide bodies), if you have any doubts just look at what pay class the 747's and DC10's are considered at other Legacy carriers.

FYI the new USAir pay rates group places the A330 is in a different category, then the 767/57 (it pays more)
 
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G4G5 said:
You will see 20+ year fences on the 38-747's, DAL brings none of these to the table. NWA has 22- DC10's (24 on order over the next 5 years replace these). They also have 15-A330's. DAL only has 8 -777's. Their is no way the NWA guys, or any arbitrator will consider that a merger of equals.

DAL guys will have looooooooooooooooog fences.

The bottom line is Maneta was just spouting off. This makes NO sence at all. Only the 757's are similar. Where does the cost savings come from? Where does the money to buy new aircraft come from?

Thanks. We are both also at the table right now with Boeing for the 787 ( no joke). So, who would fly those? Both....? Yep. And, the 747s may be on the way out eventually. Our 777s are bigger than their A330s, and their DC-10s are going away. Our 764s (22 of them)are also bigger than their A330s.(and they go INTL this Summer) We have more 757s and 767s, and we also have about the same number of narrow bodies-- (738s and MD88s to their A320s and A319s). So, we have more widebodies by far, and more 757s. How do you think that will play out? They supposedly will get rid of their 742s and replace the cargo ones with 744s that they are now flying pax on. How will that play out? How looooooong will the fences be again? For who? You need to look up the facts. We have more widebodies and larger narrowbody planes (120 757s) than they do. They just have the largest plane type, the 747s, and half will be grounded eventually, leaving a certain number of 744s to do cargo runs. The 787s will be a common plane, and the flagship for INTL.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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G4G5 said:
You guys need to get a grip and take a CLOSE look at the current trend in pay scales. What is the 767 considered at UAL and CAL? I'll give you one hint it's not a wide body. No legacy carrier, not even AA pays the 767 as a wide body.

The reality is the 767 will be grouped into the same pay class as the, (same type raing) 757. Just like it's done at CAL and UAL.

Huh? The 767 is considered a widebody (look--777, 762, and 764 at CAL, and 757/767 at UAL is paid more than the A319/733), and the 757 is considered a narrowbody. We have more domestic 767s than anyone else, and more 767-300ERs. Would our ER's that go to Moscow not be considered a "widebody?"

Go look at airlinepilotcentral.com again---at the bottom of the CAL page and the different collum for UAL. Yes, at UAL the pay is the same (just like DL), but not at CAL---the 762 and up is considered widebody pay.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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FDJ2 said:
Your absolutely right, DAL has far more wide bodied aircraft.

NWA has 45 B747s + 22 DC-10s + 18 A330s= 85 wide bodied aircarft

DAL has 122 B767s + 8 777s = 130 wide bodied aircraft.

DAL also has far more 757s 121 vs. 72

DAL has 136 MD88/90s vs NWAs 159 DC-9s

and only 113 737s vs NWAs 153 Airbi

http://www.airsafe.com/events/usfleet.htm

Yeah, your right, this would definitely not be a merger between equals.:rolleyes:

So we found the only guy around that actually believes that the 767 will be considered a wide body for seniority intergration (read the above post). If you have any doubts just ask the TWA 767 guys how they liked flying the AA 777's or A300's. Oh that's right they can't because the intergration process grouped the 767's in with the 757's.

Or you could ask the Pan Am guys how they liked flying the L1011's. Oh that's right you guys fenced them off them, when you told them that the A310's were equal to the 767's and they had NO right to fly anything larger.

Funny how history has a way of repeating itself.
 
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General Lee said:
Huh? The 767 is considered a widebody (look--777, 762, and 764 at CAL, and 757/767 at UAL is paid more than the A319/733), and the 757 is considered a narrowbody. We have more domestic 767s than anyone else, and more 767-300ERs. Would our ER's that go to Moscow not be considered a "widebody?"

Go look at airlinepilotcentral.com again---at the bottom of the CAL page and the different collum for UAL. Yes, at UAL the pay is the same (just like DL), but not at CAL---the 762 and up is considered widebody pay.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I stand corrected with the CAL 767's. But my point is still the same. At recently bankrupt ALPA carriers, like UAL and USAir the 767 and the 757 are grouped into the same pay class, this is the future trend.

CAL has not had the need to do this because they have not gone CH11, more power to them but if you guys actually think that your mgt will be willing to group the 767 as a wide body for pay, you are kidding yourself.

You are bankrupt and they will be looking to save money (that's why 8-777's stand little chance of survival). They will go to the judge with the new UAL and USAir pay rates in hand, ALPA will have to fight it. Good luck
 
G4G5 said:
I stand corrected with the CAL 767's. But my point is still the same. At recently bankrupt ALPA carriers, like UAL and USAir the 767 and the 757 are grouped into the same pay class, this is the future trend.

CAL has not had the need to do this because they have not gone CH11, more power to them but if you guys actually think that your mgt will be willing to group the 767 as a wide body for pay, you are kidding yourself.

You are bankrupt and they will be looking to save money (that's why 8-777's stand little chance of survival). They will go to the judge with the new UAL and USAir pay rates in hand, ALPA will have to fight it. Good luck

And exactly how does any of this affect you? Get a life!
 
G4G5 said:
I stand corrected with the CAL 767's. But my point is still the same. At recently bankrupt ALPA carriers, like UAL and USAir the 767 and the 757 are grouped into the same pay class, this is the future trend.

CAL has not had the need to do this because they have not gone CH11, more power to them but if you guys actually think that your mgt will be willing to group the 767 as a wide body for pay, you are kidding yourself.

You are bankrupt and they will be looking to save money (that's why 8-777's stand little chance of survival). They will go to the judge with the new UAL and USAir pay rates in hand, ALPA will have to fight it. Good luck

You and I both don't know what will stay or go. Delta seems to like the 8 777s, and they may be the precursor to the 787. We also finished 90% of all of our lease negotiations, which usually means we re-upped on new leases. Will we break those after a merger? I don't think so if we got a great deal, and apparently we have done very well with that 90%. We will likely keep the 764s, and you forgot we even had those. Will those be widebodies? They are huge. So, you can add 8 777s to 22 764s. Are you saying our INTL flying 767-300ERs that go to Moscow and Budapest wouldn't get widebody pay? We just got a 14% pay cut, and that was across the board. The 767 is now paid 14% less than before Dec 15th, 2005. So is the 737-200. Doesn't matter. NW took a 29% pay cut. That is significant. We are approaching a LCC type airline, and we still have widebodies that bring in more revenue than a narrowbody.

I just want to know where you are coming up with these assertions. You totally forgot about our 22 764s (which are widebodies almost as big as the 777), and you forgot all about our 767-300s and 120 757s. We are a lot larger than NW, and you didn't know that we are both at the table talking about the 787 with Boeing. Yes, they have 747s---and those would be fenced for awhile I am sure, if this thing happens at all. Speculation---but you need to know the numbers and sizes.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
800Dog said:
And exactly how does any of this affect you? Get a life!

truth hurts.

I am furloughed AA so what happens at any legacy carrier has a possible effect on me.
 
G4G5 said:
So we found the only guy around that actually believes that the 767 will be considered a wide body for seniority intergration (read the above post).

FYI, the 767 is a wide bodied aircraft and I'd rather have 120 767 then a handful of DC-10s and 747s. At the end of the day the bulk of the DAL pilot group is flying 757s and767/300/400s, about 240 airframes, whereas the bulk of the NWA pilot group is out flying DC-9s and A319/20s.
 
Give me a break. Delta and Northwest together just makes one big Bankrupt airline. I personally would like to see Air Tran and Delta merge. That would be funny. The Delta Elite mixed in with the lower level of aviation. What a blast. Ty Webb could really brag then.
 
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