Transportation SEC wonders about DL--NW merge

[fokkerjet]

Since all this could possibly take place 5 years from now, won't both airlines have a whole different fleet mix since both are currently trying to reduce their mixes or farm out some of the flying? Delta could possibily be left with the B777's, B757/767's, and 737NG's, and Northwest with B747's, A330's, B757's and A319/320's; the DC10's, older B767's, DC9 / MD88 / MD90's and B737 "classics" leaving the fleets. How do you put all the remaining aircraft together and make a viable, profitable airline with such a diverse fleet again? The only common type would be the 757, and maybe the 787 if Delta orders, but otherwise you go back to operating with 9 different types of aircraft?

Just wondering!

 

[81Horse]

DTW320:

-- The 20 year Roberts award at NWA is dead as of 1/1/2006.

Thanks for clarifying; I had forgotten the drop-dead date on this. Of course, with NWA in a downsizing mode now, I wouldn't be surprised to see attempts made to revisit this award (vis a vis position and base bumps and flushes).

-- We have no idea why the right side of the vert. stab has an arrow pointing NE.

I heard the reason was $$ (they didn't have to do a mirror-image graphic for the right side), but maybe this is an urban pilot myth.

-- "tico" is a disgruntled former AMFA guy who also goes by "dogg"

Hunh. For reals? I was wondering, 'cause I can't fathom why any pilot would wish such ill on two airlines and all their employees.

 

[General Lee]

NWA has 150 DC9's and DAL has 136 MD88/90's
NWA has 150 A319/320 DAL has 119 737 series

Totals NWA - 300, DAL -254
Welcome to you new narrow/small pay scale (just like UAL and USAir)

DAL has 217 757's and 767 200/300
NWA has 72 757's
This is the same way they are grouped for pay at USAir and UAL

Wide body
DAL has 8-777's and 21-767-400's
NWA has 38 747's, 22 DC10's and 15 A330's
DAL 29, NWA 75

Grand totals
NWA 447
DAL 500

Now what about the grand DAL fleet plan?
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_aviationdaily_story.jsp?id=news/del09154.xml
I added 10-767/200's aren't they all going to ABEX or the desert? The master plan also calls for the reduction of the 737-200's and 300's (another 48 aircraft). Does the master plan call for keeping the 16 MD90's?

When you look at what Green jeans has determined to be the remaining fleet types. DAL and NWA are almost the same size.

Yes, some of those planes will go away, like the 767-200s to ABX in a couple years (1 per quarter), and the 737-200s are scheduled to eventually go--although I heard we may keep some for a bit longer because the lease rates shrunk to $15,000 a month---from over $100,000. NW will also be getting rid of plenty of DC9s, and all of their DC-10s. As far as exit financing paying for new aircraft, that is what happened at Air Canada. They were days from liquidation, and then they eventually came out and ordered 20 777s and 35 787s. USAir got some money from Airbus to order 20 A350s. It can happen, and both NW and DL are supposedly talking to Boeing about the 787.

The 16 MD90s and most of the MD88s are supposed to stay around until 2011/2012. We still have some 738s on order, but they have been pushed back. I thought we were going to get one more 777 (oh yeah--1) sometime soon, but I have lost track.

Overall, we have a lot more widebodies and larger narrowbody equipment (757s) than NW. Yes, I could see them placing a fence on the 747, and that would be expected---and our 777 would also be fenced. Who knows? Also, we are still in negotiations and the company set a rate (that is hopefully negotiable) for a future 100 seater, that could replace the 737-200s. We shall see.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

The biggest problem is fleet commonality, the biggest benefit is that NWA has a strong route system where DAL's is weak and DAL has a strong route system where NWA's is weak.

I don't see the seniority issues as troublesome as some. Both pilot groups have roughly equivalent career expectations, if you can claim one in BK. The average DAL aircraft is larger then the average NWA aircraft, there are simply more wide bodied aircraft and 757s at DAL then at NWA, but NWA does have a few aircraft that are larger then DAL's, although DAL 777, pay rates are higher then NWA's 747-400 rates and the DAL 767-400 pays more then anything other than the 747-400 at NWA. NWA DC-10 and A330 rates are marginally higher than DAL's 767/757 pates, but DAL's 737-800 rates are higher than NWA's 757 rates and the MD88s at DAL pay roughly the same as NWA's 320s and more then the DC-9. What the ultimate fleet plan of a merged list would look like would be anyones guess.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that if, and that is still a very big if, there was a merger, I think there would probably be seat and base protection, small fences, and an integration based on maintaining the same relative seniority number. Top 5% stay in the top 5% all the way down.

 

[G4G5]

I'll take a stab at this. TWA did not have any 777 or A300s. It was one more way that the APA (you) could screw these guys. the 757/767 is grouped together at a lot of airlines because it is the SAME type rating (DUH). The 767 is a wide body. Anyone who says that it is not is an idiot.

No one argues that the 767 in a widebody. Big deal. My landlord stopped taking titles years ago, he wants money.

What is the 767 pay like at the 2 legacy carriers that have gone through bankruptcy? How do USAir and UAL pay the 767? It's grouped in with the narrow body 757. So if you want to tell everyone you fly a widebody or we have more 767's then you. Big deal. I would rather have the cash.

Seniority arbitrators look at previous history to determine integrations. The 767 pilots at TWA were fenced off of anything larger (and yes on paper TWA still had ownership of a 747, in the desert). The Delta pilots did the same thing to the Pan Am pilots. At the time Pan Am had 747's but because none were taken the Pan Am pilots were fenced off of the MD11's and L1011's.

That's my point with the 8-777's. If they don't wind up at NWA, history has shown (by the very same DAL pilots) that they don't count. With over 33% of then NWA list flying A330's or larger, it will be very difficult for the DAL MEC to avoid huge fences because the career expectations of the NWA pilots are to fly large aircraft.

 

[General Lee]

No one argues that the 767 in a widebody. Big deal. My landlord stopped taking titles years ago, he wants money.

What is the 767 pay like at the 2 legacy carriers that have gone through bankruptcy? How do USAir and UAL pay the 767? It's grouped in with the narrow body 757. So if you want to tell everyone you fly a widebody or we have more 767's then you. Big deal. I would rather have the cash.

Seniority arbitrators look at previous history to determine integrations. The 767 pilots at TWA were fenced off of anything larger (and yes on paper TWA still had ownership of a 747, in the desert). The Delta pilots did the same thing to the Pan Am pilots. At the time Pan Am had 747's but because none were taken the Pan Am pilots were fenced off of the MD11's and L1011's.

That's my point with the 8-777's. If they don't wind up at NWA, history has shown (by the very same DAL pilots) that they don't count. With over 33% of then NWA list flying A330's or larger, it will be very difficult for the DAL MEC to avoid huge fences because the career expectations of the NWA pilots are to fly large aircraft.

How much did we keep of Pan Am? Not much, except their routes, and we were the aggressor. You don't have that with this possible merger. And, we have more larger equipment. The A330 is smaller than the 777 and 764. After the A330, they have some 753s (we have more domestic 767-300s).

This is really all moot until it happens. But, I think we are bigger and have more widebodies and larger naroowbodies. Again, fences might be placed around the remaining 744s, but the others--742 and DC10s will go away like our 762s. Will our 777s go away? Probably not--we just re-upped all of the leases.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[81Horse]

-- This is really all moot until it happens. But, I think we are bigger ...

This is funny.

Seriously, let's start another rumor to argue about.

 

[800Dog]

-- This is really all moot until it happens. But, I think we are bigger ...

This is funny.

Seriously, let's start another rumor to argue about.

I heard Hooters Air is buying Delta and the Hooters girls are asking for date of hire. My resource said the Hooters girls think nothing less than 767 FO is acceptable.

 

[81Horse]

-- the Hooters girls think nothing less than 767 FO is acceptable.

Yeah? I heard the Delta merger committee is proposing a ratio of two Hooters F/O'a for every one DL captain.