Trans States to Receive 14 New RJ's

[ready2push]

Uncle Don and Draginass:
Your positions are pretty clear on this issue. You are both clearly against TSA pilots flying these jets. That's understood, but what do you propose the pilot group at TSA do?

Seriously, that's not a rhetorical question and I'm not flaming. I don't know what the pilot group could do. Certainly they cannot strike. What would you do if you were a pilot at TSA?

You guys talk about how TSA pilots are nearly scabs and imply that they may be treated punitively if there were ever a merger/acquisition, but you don't really offer any options for the average line pilot/furloughee at TSA.

So, my question is what's your advice and what would you do if you were a TSA pilot? Quit? Refuse to fly? It's a serious question and I hope your answer reflects your professionalism and knowledge.

 

[Uncle Don]

You are right. It is a very hard position for the TSA pilots.

However, the TSA CHQ pilots are unionized. At the very least, they can all make calls, write letters and share their opinions with both their LEC's, MEC's and national reps as well as the company. The CHQ MEC has refused to work on two occasions with APA and AE ALPA. The TSA MEC must sit-down and have a very long talk with APA. Pressure from the average pilot will do just that.

Everyone knows how shady the entire AX code share has become. It must stop or it could truly lead to the demise of the industry. The American Connection Carriers have lead to it, now they must work with APA, and ALPA to end it.

TSA pilots take notes from your former A/C owners at AE. They have been pressured by management since OCT 01, to blame APA and the AA pilots that they are completely to blame for the ASM cap. However they stood by APA, even had a unity march with APA at the shareholders meeting in Dallas to show their support for APA and what the SCOPE was trying to do. The AE MEC has worked very closely with APA and has talks and meetings with APA on a weekly bases.

Has any of the American Connection's MEC's ever called APA or Eagle ALPA to talk about any way to apply political pressure, orany pressure on AMR.

ALSO....Striking is not the only way to not flying these A/C. FAA says that ALL equipment MUST working or MEL'd. I am sure the planes that TSA will get are not going to be the newest plane in the fleet. I just hope you guys are not flying broken plans around the skies!!!!

Finally, ALPA national obviously doesn’t support what the Connection carriers are doing. Otherwise they would not allowed the bulletin that is posted on their homepage www.alpa.org or GO DIRECT TO BULLETIN

All I ask is do whats RIGHT! AX code is not anymore ethical than the accounting tactics of ERON and WOLRDCOM!

 

[throttlejockey]

- If the tables were turned, each of the pilot groups would certainly have different positions than they have now.

- Each pilot group must look out for what is best for each pilot group AT THAT TIME. I do not blame Eagle ALPA for taking the position that they do, nor do I blame APA, or the unions at AX.

- Each pilot group should fight as hard as they can for their positions.Not to do so is to fail in their fiduciary responsibilities.

- I doubt any pilot group is willing to go on unemployment on a VOLUNTARY basis. So asking one carriers group to do so is frivilous.

- Most of us regional pilots are hand to mouth anyway, so we have to worry about our bills TODAY, and let the chips fall where they may TOMORROW. Call it mortgaging the future, or short sighted, but that is the reality of the situation.

- Name calling and obscene gestures from one pilot group to the other will not create an atmosphere that is conducive to any type of meaningful discussion and will only make matters worse. If everyone would focus their energies on battling our managements (respectively) I am sure we would get better outcomes.

- Everyone needs to realize that we are only pawns in this game. The Airline business is a dirty rotten business run by cut-throat types in tassle loafers. They have armies of lawyers that will bog down any lawsuit indefinately, and create massive legal bills for those that try to sue. Even though you may have the law on your side, having the law on your side can be very expensive.

-It is up to each pilot group to try and leverage its own position as best as it can. This means each union must fight to maintain the highest pay, the best work rules, and the best benefits it can.

 

[Uncle Don]

Well that is just great.....

SCAB's do what is in the best interest of themselves! Not what is best for the group.

I hope that most the pilots out there don't have the same "Self Help" mentality the you do "ThrottleJockey".

People like you play right into the hands of management.

AX is in direct violation of not 1, not 2, but 3 negotiated items of 2 separate contracts and 2 SCOPE clauses.

How is that in the best interest of ANYONE?!!??

 

[throttlejockey]

Uncle Don:

Either you do not have the intellectual capability or you lack the temperment to have a rational discussion since you have resorted to name-calling. But since we all are anonymous on these message boards, I am sure you will reply with further name-calling.

I admit that I do what is in my self interest. Not doing so would not be human. The failure of marxist-leninist (communist)philosophy proved that humans are primarily motivated by self interest.

If I was in your position, I would fight AMR's outsourcing strategy as hard as possible because it would be in my self interest. Even though you may not be willing to admit it, your doing so today is in your self interest as well.

You will find very few of us who are willing to roll over and go on unemployment just because it suits you. In any case, it is not up to me or you to settle this out, it is up to a bunch of lawyers in $1000 suits that will be paid out of company coffers and union dues.

We did not seek this confrontation, we do not want a confrontation, nor is it our battle to fight. This is between your unions and AMR, not us.

Leave us out, and stop the name-calling or else there will be fewer and fewer of us that will have any more sympathy for you and your position.

 

[rush]

TSA

OK Don you just call me a scab, why? Becouse AMR your company, not mine decides to sell, not transfer jets to us. If you are so high and mighty with you suggestions on what TSA pilots should do, why don't you do it since you work for AMR. I do not work for them you do, if you do not agree with your management you do something about it. Do I like what AMR is doing, hell no, can I do anything about it, no. By the way our MEC and Eagle MEC do talk. I do not recall APA MEC approaching us with any problems.
Do not get me started on the AX issue it stinks, but it was your management idea and your union set precident for it (Alaska). Eagle guys keep saying we fly their routes, I challenge you to name one route we took away from AE. Do not give me the exclusivity exuse, AE isflying for NW and fo U, so apparently it is OK to code share for them but not us.
30% of our pilots are on furlough, I am glad they will be recalled. Now explain to me how is it benefitial for a pilot group to loose their jobs to keep other pilot group flying. Would you give up your job for me or any other pilot?
I do not hold any grudges against other pilot groups, becouse pilots do not decide on the direction their company takes. You apparently do not understand that.

 

[checkessential]

I recently had a "friend" from Chautauqua call to ask how I like my travel benefits. I suppose management promised them a few of our airplanes too.....

 

[fxbat]

- “Name calling and obscene gestures from one pilot group to the other will not create an atmosphere that is conducive to any type of meaningful discussion and will only make matters worse”.

Next time bring a camera, I seriously doubt this accusation of unprofessional behavior.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Eagle guys keep saying we fly their routes, I challenge you to name one route we took away from AE

I don't accuse TSA of stealing AE routes. I accuse them of doing flying that belongs to Eagle per their contract. There is a difference. To be clear, my beef is not with your pilots, and I understand you are doing what you have to do. But I hope you understand that your right to fly the routes you fly died with TWA. It is rightfully Eagle's now. If I were you, I'd do the flying, but I'd feel terrible about it, and I certainly wouldn't have the gall to chew out an Eagle pilot who is upset about it.

The point is, you don't have a choice. As pilots, you have to do the flying or you'll lose your jobs. It's not struck work, so you're not scabs. But I'd also keep my mouth shut because your airline has no right to do the flying, and you are stealing it from your fellow pilots.

 

[rush]

TSA

When AMR purchased TWA it purchased all it's assets and liabilities, that includes contracts with regional carriers.
I do not see an exlusivity clause in your contract, (yes I have read the whole thing, I have a copy). AE has codeshare agreements with U and NW, you think that flying belongs to you or their wholly owned. I agree that your understanding of intent of the language of the CBA gives you the right to make those statements, however if I would be sighning a contract with AMR Especially a long, long,long term one) I would make sure to get it in writing, with all the T crossed and all the I dotted. As it stands your only hope is to fight it in court and put another ALPA carrier out of business. As for the camera comment, I am sorry but I guess our pilots are too busy doing their jobs to carry one and have it ready in the nick of time during taxi, your MEC is aware of the situation and we were told measures will be taken to restore professionalism.

 

[jetexas]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this..
I heard that the TWA deal was considered an 'aquistition' and not a flat out 'purchase' due to TWA being chapter 11 and borderline chapter 7 at the time the deal went through.
If that's the case, in an 'aquistion', prior contracts do not have to be honored.

 

[eaglefly]

rush - I'm sorry but you have been misinformed. In actuality, when AMR acquired the assets of TWA it DID NOT include contracts with any regional carriers. AMR had both the legal right to renew (or terminate) any or all of those agreements at their option. They chose to renew them (with interesting stipulations) because it was the least expensive way of maintaining feed at STL.

AMR is testing the boundaries to see how far it can go. AMR is doing this in steps.

STEP 1. - Original decision to renew STL contracts with former TWE carriers.

Legal argument - Eagle ALPA - Section 1 Job Security (B) Scope. Primarily involves the concept of "operational control" and the intent of this section to protect AMR from reestablishing a "whipsaw" network. Also as to who the "company" is as the President of Eagle is an AA employee. Additional argument is (F) Increased Flying Opportunites. A lot of paperwork is there from the original contract meetings to help the arbitrator decide on what promises were and were not implied in exchage for an unprecedented 16 year contract guaranteeing labor stability.

Potential ? 50/50. It must be noted the the concept of "intent" in our contract has been argued by AMR previously, so their is precedent as to its concept. No one knows how the arbitrator will rule because only a limited number of people understand waht was presented during arbitration.

STEP 2. - Decision to "transfer" 14 jets flown by Eagle to new "alter-ego" carriers. Section 1 Job Security (D) Succesorship. Aircraft were originally intended to be "returned" to Embrear with Embrear to remarket those A/C for the best price and most secure financing to benefit Embrear. Instead AMR has apparently "cooked-up a backroom deal" to benefit AMR (and Embrear) at the expense of the Eagle pilots and their CBA. Potential ? Eagle ALPA special meeting in Herndon this week. Look for declaration of "major dispute" which would mean lawsuit or possible job action. STEP 3. - Attempt by AMR to start "funneling" these and future A/C thru current Eagle hubs. Then there would be little doubt that this would violate the Eagle CBA which stipulates that the transfer of our operations MUST includes the transfer of our pilots AND contract. Stay tuned. Total showdown is inevitable.

 

[Draginass]

Such is the danger of working for an outsourcer company . . . . someday you're going to get dragged into the middle of a really nasty battle. Those who want to work for outsourcers take note.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think TSA had any routes of their "own." They were outsourcers for TWA et al. Any contracts, routes, or anything to do with TWA went into the circular file when TWA was bought on the courthouse steps.

The salient point is that any slight-of-hand "reverse" code sharing business is a clear violation of the AE and APA scope clauses. This will be proven in court.

Now . . . what is the unfortunate pilot at TSA to do? Well, first of all, stop the gloating of some of your compadres and admit collectively as a union that you don't like the position the company is placing it's pilots. Work to rule and don't do anything to inflame the situation any more. Work closely with AE and the APA for collective resolution. Striking is not an option right now. It would be an illegal strike, a violation of your contract with the company, and only damage yourselves even worse. Hopefully ALPA will grow some cajones and provide some legal and ethical guidance. This is big time politics and legalistics. I'm personally content to let the lawyers fight this out instead of our pilots. BUT, make no mistake about it, it's very important that the TSA pilot group make themselves VERY small during all this mess and not do ANYTHING to make it worse . . . legally or emotionally. This too shall pass and the majors will be hiring again. Don't do anything stupid to make yourselves persona non-grata at a future interview with the nation's largest airline.

 

[TWA Dude]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this..
I heard that the TWA deal was considered an 'aquistition' and not a flat out 'purchase' due to TWA being chapter 11 and borderline chapter 7 at the time the deal went through.
If that's the case, in an 'aquistion', prior contracts do not have to be honored.

To be technical AA purchased TWA's assets out of bankruptcy court Chapter 11 Section 1113. However our pilot contract was still binding due to changes instituted after the Lorenzo/Continental debacle in the 80's: a company cannot go chapter 11 in order to void a union contract. ALPA remained the collective bargaining agent for the ex-TWA pilots until this past April, fully a year after the sale closed. The TW-ALPA chose to eliminate the Scope and Successorship clauses from our contract to preclude the possiblity of the bankruptcy judge abdicating our whole contract since it contradicted the APA's. That prevented forced arbitration from ever entering into the equation.

As far as the current discussion goes, as has been stated AMR re-negotiated all the code-sharing stuff anew.

 

[skippy22]

Think

Just a simple thing. Unless any of us are managment, I think we are all getting upset with the wrong people. I am furloughed from AE, and I have a friend who will get his job back b/c of this. I don't hate him at all! I understand that we are all just trying to do our jobs, and some lucked out with better companies. Some with bad ones. Don't be bad at eachother, realize whos doing this.