Tranny ALPA MEC - Dragging their feet

[Lear70]

It's another stall to make sure we know "who's in charge". More of the same that they did with the process agreement. Negotiation 101. They are just trying to sweat eveyone out to see if someone flinches and comes back to the table with a better deal.

No, not really, it's fixing language to be acceptable. Here's one loophole for you from your Side Letter 9 that HAS to be fixed in the 4-party agreement before we can move forward:

The funny part about your Side Letter 9, now that I've had a chance to really analyze it... it doesn't say a THING about taking as many AAI pilots into training as they pull AAI aircraft out of service. It actually would allow for Southwest management to NOT take an even number of crews over to Southwest and only take, say, half the crews for a certain number of aircraft removed from service here and accelerate your -300 retirements, allowing our pilots to be furloughed (new section 27.C.1 - the NUMBER of pilots transitioning over is subject to the needs of Southwest airlines).

The paragraph on furloughs at the bottom of SL9 only references YOUR contract (Section 22). We don't go on your contract until we start training. So we would be subject to furlough per OUR contract, which actually matches your SL8 - our pilots furloughed prior to yours.

Staying separate prevents more than 8% of our ASM's in terms of aircraft from being transferred to SWA AND prohibits ANY aircraft transfer if such a transfer will cause furloughs. MV agreed to abide by that language, so we are at an impasse until we can get the language in OUR LoA (our version of your SL9) and the 4-party agreement to actually guarantee what was promised in the AIP.

There's a LOT of things that have to happen in the 4-party agreement in order for us to be able to buy off on it. That takes time. It's not a stall tactic, it's making sure we don't get hosed. Would you do any different if you found such a problem in the language?

 

[madjack]

As a ten year SWA FO in a no growth, acquisition era, I do not expect to ever upgrade...the 851 retention slots will keep me from excercising my seniority...the AAI CPs were protected (even those that upgraded after the snapshot)...this cost the AAI FOs...arbitration may give you a better seniority list, hey I would probably end up doing OK with DOH and a shorter fence...but turning down seat protection until 2020 and raises for everybody for the uncertainty arbitration is a ballsy move...if you get a really great arbitrated seniority list, let's say relative seniority, Mr Kelly will have to deal with 6000 REALLY PO'd SWA Pilots and 1700 overjoyed AAI pilots...

 

[JT12345]

Like I said. I would not wish our level of disappointment on you guys.

Right now it is the other way around, and I doubt all 6000 of u will be PO'd even after it goes to arbitration. I serverly doubt it unless we get a 20% bump in senority and you guys take a 38% loss. I doubt even an arbitrator would do that.

I will take this bet.

Just because this POS somehow made it through the pipelines (and we are all trying to understand how) doesn't mean you guys even have a shot at this.

You know I am tired of the threats. Luv my arse. Go fek yourselfs. Suck my !#$!#$

 

[madjack]

You know I am tired of the threats. Luv my arse. Go fek yourselfs. Suck my !#$!#$

I wasn't threatening anything...I for one expect our accountant CEO to combine the carriers no matter what the arbitrator says...you will have to fly with the SWA pilots...

 

[Lear70]

As a ten year SWA FO in a no growth, acquisition era, I do not expect to ever upgrade...the 851 retention slots will keep me from excercising my seniority...the AAI CPs were protected (even those that upgraded after the snapshot)...this cost the AAI FOs...arbitration may give you a better seniority list, hey I would probably end up doing OK with DOH and a shorter fence...but turning down seat protection until 2020 and raises for everybody for the uncertainty arbitration is a ballsy move...if you get a really great arbitrated seniority list, let's say relative seniority, Mr Kelly will have to deal with 6000 REALLY PO'd SWA Pilots and 1700 overjoyed AAI pilots...

Actually, I think DoH and shorter fences would actually go over much better here. Some of the most junior CA's would likely get displaced when the fence came down, which would benefit your F/O's, our overall seniority hit would only be about HALF what it is with this deal, while your pilots would still gain some (about half of what you gain currently), and I doubt a DoH list holds off integration. Could be wrong, but I don't think so...

The only big unknown then becomes the 717 pay. Do they really hold it back and create a B-scale pilot group within the company? As soon as any seat locks or fences are down, you would see massive movement off the 717 as vacancies came available, before the aircraft are returned, thus resulting in MILLIONS in training costs as a seat shuffle begins... I don't see it. Again, could be wrong, but the negatives may just outweigh the benefits.

 

[JT12345]

Yeah mad,

Ok I will give u that. For the others that outright said it that goes to you then

 

[Lear70]

You know I am tired of the threats. Luv my arse. Go fek yourselfs. Suck my !#$!#$

WTFO? Really? Dude, chill... go play with your kids or something.

 

[JT12345]

WTFO? Really? Dude, chill... go play with your kids or something.

fine.


I cant take the snake oil salesmen on here anymore. Your right. I am losing it.

 

[Cometman]

fine.


I cant take the snake oil salesmen on here anymore. Your right. I am losing it.

I hope he doesn't have children. They deserve better. Listen to Lear70.

 

[Lear70]

I hope he doesn't have children. They deserve better. Listen to Lear70.

He does and he's a nice guy, he just gets wound around the axle sometime.

Everyone's tensions are high, stuff like this is bound to happen among our more "high strung" on both sides as we go down the road for a while. Sorry.

 

[madjack]

The only big unknown then becomes the 717 pay. Do they really hold it back and create a B-scale pilot group within the company?

Good question, SWAPA will be negotiating those rates with SWA correct?...can't see them negotiating anything less than our -500 (122 seats) which is the same rate as the -300/700...

Bad timing for no qrowth announcement in 2012...ws hoping Mr Kelly would have announced 30 -800 order...oh well...out of our hands...

 

[Empennage]

fine.


I cant take the snake oil salesmen on here anymore. Your right. I am losing it.

Jt thank you. You have certainly used your right to freedom of speech

Your MEC needs an opportunity to work through this. There are many complexities to the deal. While you have seen sl9, there may be other items, facts and details which make it so much more potentially complicated than the bullet points appear to be.

Additionally you are making an emotional decision using an emotional thought process making emotional statements. I agree it's hard not to be. Swa pilots are guilty of the same thing. You are fostering debate however and that's a good thing.

You will get your say and I'm pretty sure it will be in a vote. To say there will be no vote is another emotional argument. You need to vote. Your MEC needs you to vote. It's your future. It appears you will take control of it and I hope you do.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Like I said. I would not wish our level of disappointment on you guys.

You don't have to. It's already there. Evidently you cannot fathom this, from the comments you make here, but our career expectations as SWA FO's have taken a hit. We now have 800+ new captains that, in essence, got hired off the street. GK has said that due to industry and economic concerns, we will not grow, and in fact will have less capacity in 2012 than 2011.

Right now it is the other way around, and I doubt all 6000 of u will be PO'd even after it goes to arbitration. I serverly doubt it unless we get a 20% bump in senority and you guys take a 38% loss. I doubt even an arbitrator would do that.

If you are insinuating that SWA guys got a 20% bump in seniority, I'd like to see your math. I personally got a 9% bump, which, by the way, will make little to no difference in my life. Yes, you guys did take a big seniority hit, and I can imagine your pain, but it was not without recompense, and a lot of it, when you consider both pay and benefits. I will be flying with AAI guys who are junior to me, who are making $60k+ more per year than I.

You know I am tired of the threats. Luv my arse. Go fek yourselfs. Suck my !#$!#$

I'm sorry you all feel threatened, but no one here has any power to make you feel that way (or shouldn't anyway). The only one is GK, and if I were you, I would feel some trepidation at turning this down, because he is not averse to seeking other paths to avoid unnecessary expense. If it makes you feel any better, we feel somewhat threatened on our side, due to GK insisting that he save training costs by protecting your seats, even out of seniority.

Of course, it's all just business, and it's not personal. I just don't want you to think that you have a monopoly on misery. Whether you agree with it or not, the fact is that SWA FO's have been dealt a hit to their career expectations, with nothing to make up for it. You've been dealt a seniority hit (as you should have, being the smaller, lesser valued, and acquired carrier), but with a windfall of financial gains that should more than make up for the pain.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Whether you agree with it or not, the fact is that SWA FO's have been dealt a hit to their career expectations, with nothing to make up for it. You've been dealt a seniority hit (as you should have, being the smaller, lesser valued, and acquired carrier), but with a windfall of financial gains that should more than make up for the pain.

Career expectations? What did you think was going to happen, SWA was going to organically grow 30% a year forever?

When I got hired, there were guys who made the left seat in 18 months. Then it went to 3 years, then 6 years. Now our F/Os are looking at 11 years in the right seat.

The only career expectation you had as a SWA new hire was to be a 737 CA SOMEDAY. That was exactly the same expectation an AAI pilot had.

And, again, it amuses me that you guys equate their pay raise with grabbing THEIR seniority.

Admit it, all of you...the only FAIR way to merge these lists:

1. No bump/no flush
2. Pre-1993 SWA hires on the list
3. Ratio the rest.

Everything else is just B.S. And the outright hubris of the SWA F/Os here is getting a bit annoying.

 

[madjack]

Career expectations? What did you think was going to happen, SWA was going to organically grow 30% a year forever?

No but I didn't expect to be pulling gear for a guy/gal hired at AAI 4 years after I was hired at SWA who is making $70K more a year than I am...what is your point?