Training Programs

[paid4training]

My parents are going to pay $40k for my college. Now I can spend ALL of that at ATP, or I can spend all of that on college.

My plan:
Finish up HS this spring
Summer of 05: Start taking classes at Jr. College, get that much farther ahead. Go to Summer Semester, Fall, Spring, and Summer semester, so by fall of 06' I got my 2 years of Jr. College out of the way.

Join up with ATP and (hopefully, hopefully!!) land a job with them, so I can build time.

If I can get on with some regional carrier, thad' just seal the deal! Regional Pilots seem to average about two weeks off a month. With a flight line time of 72hrs, that should leave time for me to squeeze in time for the last two years of my degree.

IF i had to do it all over again I would do the following:
Take the summer off or get a sh!t job making you want to go to school...you will and can get burned out going to school!!!
fall04--start the basic course @ juco and get your pvt/inst part61
sprng05--continue to get the basic and fly as much as possible
fall05--apply to erau or simular school...you have a pvt/inst...get remaining of ratings at erau or some school simular. Fly enjoy classes and chase women...get some life experience(not too much don't mess up the chances you have)...get your cfi sophmore/junior year...cfi your senior year...build hours and experience!!!

this is just an view and a wish of mine if I had to do it all over again
fall04--

 

[minitour]

So, let me see if I understand this PFT thing (in retail terms).

Say I want to be a District Manager for X company...but I have to have 5 years experience to be a District Manager for X company...

Here comes Y company that says, "Hey, for $5,000 you can be a District Manager for our company."

So, I pay Y company $5,000 and be a District Manager for 5 years...

...so instead of Y company paying ME $40-$50K a year....I payed THEM $5,000??


If I've got it right, then why are some people for it?

If I've got it wrong, someone please use the scenario above and put it in my terms...thanks...

A Very Confused
-mini

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Mav, I could buy nearly 700 multi hours for that $100k... I think many regionals would drool over someone with 700 multi. He!!, at $100k I would go out and buy my own multi and fly it into the ground (I would either be sleeping, working, or logging multi time as long as the aircraft is airworthy).

Let me try to explain why pilots that worked their way up hate PFT. If you want to pay for your ratings, fine (noone expect HS students to walk into an engineering firm and have them pay for the engineering degree - same here). But, paying for your airline job undermines those of us who want to earn money and work out way up. You are essentially GIVING away your time and undermining my ability to find work (and command a decent wage).

So if you are screwing me, it is perfectly legitimate to f*ck with you back. And the guys on hireing boards know this. Have fun on interviews (if you get that far)!

Is it wierd that there aren't alot of guys crowing about how the PFT work got them to Jet Blue/Southwest/ect? Think about it for a minute (but don't think too long, that B1900 doesn't master itself!).

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

So, let me see if I understand this PFT thing (in retail terms).

Say I want to be a District Manager for X company...but I have to have 5 years experience to be a District Manager for X company...

Here comes Y company that says, "Hey, for $5,000 you can be a District Manager for our company."

So, I pay Y company $5,000 and be a District Manager for 5 years...

...so instead of Y company paying ME $40-$50K a year....I payed THEM $5,000??


If I've got it right, then why are some people for it?

If I've got it wrong, someone please use the scenario above and put it in my terms...thanks...

A Very Confused
-mini

There is a trick to PFT tho. Company Z offers the ability to get to the DM position, but you need to work for Company U for 3 years before you get hired on to Z (and then earn 5 years of experience). Company U pays the minumum wage and Z isn't much better.

So if all goes according to plan, you shave off 3 years of work at minumum wage and move straight to the endgame for $5k. Plus you move ahead 3 years in your professional track (and thus have a better lifestyle at the end). And say if it all works out, those 3 professional years are worth $200k apiece at company X (after raises and whatnot). So it would net you $595k to pay that $5k.

It's how PFT is supposed to work. Some people get suckered in by the idea and don't see the downsides (if others take offence at you shortcutting and smack you down).

 

[Jetter2]

I'm definatly going to ATP, I just didn't know what everyone had against GIA.

 

[paid4training]

one word...TAB!

I went threw training at Tab less then a year ago, now i'm a qualified first officer.
They have financing, and almost everyone qualifies for it. you fly turbine equipment, no cessnas or pipers, no instructing, no fright and have bridge progams with the airlines. it's not that expensive. you will spend less than 100K there, but look at it lilke this. how much does it cost to go to law school?

maverick

do you just come on this forum to get reamed? I don't think tab is even around anymore...did they go bankrupt???!!!
O N L Y 100k? your loan repayment would be $1000 a month.... try to pay that with 17k a year!!!

 

[Jmmccutc]

one word...TAB!

I went threw training at Tab less then a year ago, now i'm a qualified first officer.
They have financing, and almost everyone qualifies for it. you fly turbine equipment, no cessnas or pipers, no instructing, no fright and have bridge progams with the airlines. it's not that expensive. you will spend less than 100K there, but look at it lilke this. how much does it cost to go to law school?

maverick

inoticed that this was posted at 8:32 today (7-22), i thought after that last ass pounding you got you'd have not come back...guess it takes stupid people more than one mistake to learn from...oh hey i need a good assistant delivering pizzas, if you give me oh lets just settle at $8k i'll let you ride in the passanger seat and learn all you can from me, and if you fork up the money at the start, you can have the tips and i'll keep my hourly wage, asshole...

 

[bobbysamd]

P F T - Retail Style

So, let me see if I understand this PFT thing (in retail terms).

Say I want to be a District Manager for X company...but I have to have 5 years experience to be a District Manager for X company...

Here comes Y company that says, "Hey, for $5,000 you can be a District Manager for our company."

So, I pay Y company $5,000 and be a District Manager for 5 years...

...so instead of Y company paying ME $40-$50K a year....I payed THEM $5,000??


If I've got it right, then why are some people for it?

If I've got it wrong, someone please use the scenario above and put it in my terms...thanks...

A Very Confused
-mini

That's about the size of it, though a better example would be the following:

Say you see that Foley's is looking for a sales person for ladies' lingerie, a position with requires training. You have no experience at all in retail, but you apply for the job. Foley's brings you in to interview and offers you the job, but tells you that as a condition of employment you have to pay them to train you. After you complete the training and are put on the floor, you are paid $8/hour, with no health or other benefits, for about 30 hours a week. That would be P-F-T, retail style.

The reason why some people are for P-F-T is they want to shortcut the experience requirements that they otherwise might have to work years for. Once again, aviation is a very traditional and conservative industry, in which pilots usually spend years gaining the experience they need for their ultimate goal. But when some people see they can buy the chance to get that experience, they do it, and potentially incur the resentment of those who reached their goal the traditional way. Moreover, but for pay-for-training, the jobs in question would ordinarily be obtained through traditional employment avenues and be available to any qualified pilot. With P-F-T, another available pilot job is eliminated from the inventory.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[pilotyip]

Is reverse true?

Suppose I take a PFT job, where I have to buy a type rating I presently do not have for $20K. The jobs pays $30K above market rate for the first year, it would be a smart career move. Am I guilty of PFT?

 

[Flyin Tony]

What about SWA dont you have to buy your type rating? wouldnt that be PFT?

 

[Jetter2]

I dunno about SWA, but I know for other airlines, you don't have to buy your type raiting. Even when you become Captain, they pay for you're type raiting in that aircraft.

 

[EKUAVN20]

Eku--go Colonels

EKU-Eastern Kentucky University-- has an OK Aviation program...It seems like it isnt the best run prgram out there we have quite a few older students wanting to get into the aviation business..WE just found out UPS offered us one of there FULL MOTION SIMS..(Tax Write Off) --instructors said we couldnt pay for upkeep..

 

[Go Ugly Early]

Back to the subject......

The oringnal post was getting input about several different training programs.

I'm interested in:
All ATP
Delta Connection
Pan Am Flight Academy

I already have my Comm. ASMEL. I'm just looking to get in and get my CFI and some time instructing somewhere.

I'm leaning toward All ATP since the program is fast and the CFI program is mostly in a multi. I'd like to instruct for them afterwords, but I hear that they usually only hire students that come in at the very begining of the prgram and not students that come in for just the CFI portion.

I'd be really interested to hear about either Delta or Pan Am as well if anyone has really good information about them.

 

[Jetter2]

This is true, most of their MEII's are graduates of thier Carrer Pilot Program. I don't think that it is "playing favorites" or that they don't like you or anything of that sort. I just think that they know what quality of MEII's they are getting out of the Carrer Pilot program, besides, the more MEI's that go through their Carrer Pilot Program, and instruct for them. The more time the build, and the far better chance they have of getting on with a Regional, keeping ATP's success story page filled up, and their reputation in good standing.

 

[Mustang5.0]

I recommend "Ari-Ben aviator" - almost exactly the same program as ALL-ATP but appx. 10K cheaper and you get more multi-time, also has the oppotrunity to instruct mostly multi students after finishing.

 

[Jetter2]

Their instructional oppurtunities arent as good as ATP. Their cross country's arent the same. At ATP, you are actually moving aircraft from school to school as they are needed, so there are no real "out 'n back" X-countrys where its only a few hours.

Also ATP offers Sim training, exactly what your Airline will be conducted in, not an actual aircraft. FTD's aren't an aircraft, there is no "flying by the seat of your pants", it forces you to develop a good instrument scan.

Plus its a 20 minute drive from my house.

 

[Mustang5.0]

Their instructional oppurtunities arent as good as ATP. Their cross country's arent the same. At ATP, you are actually moving aircraft from school to school as they are needed, so there are no real "out 'n back" X-countrys where its only a few hours.

I don't think the ATP instructing opportunities are any better than Ari-Ben's, either place you instruct in a twin and the pay and hours are similar. The only thing I could think of is maybe you would make more contacs at ATP since they do ATP ratings.

In my book x-c time is x-c time, just because you go on a longer trip, it doesn't make you a better pilot, it just takes longer, I could care less if I actually go across state lines and stay somewhere overnight. BTW- you can take long trips at Ari-Ben you just have to pay the fuel diff.

Also ATP offers Sim training, exactly what your Airline will be conducted in, not an actual aircraft. FTD's aren't an aircraft, there is no "flying by the seat of your pants", it forces you to develop a good instrument scan.

A good instructor also forces you to develop a good instrument scan, I doubt you'll remember your sim training anyways after you accumulate 1,000+ hours and are ready to start interviewing. I'd rather have the extra 50 hours of ACTUAL multi flight time in the ol' logbook and the extra 10K in my pocket than that ATP sim time anyday, but whatever, thats just my opinion.

I'm not trying to bash ATP, it is an excellent program and I would still highly recommend it #2 right after Ari-Ben, I know several people who have been through ATP with good results but with the recent large price increases at ATP (it's starting to get rediculous) I just think Ari-Ben is a much better deal for virtually the same thing without the pretty newer aircraft, but I happen to be a cheap-@ss so i'm a little biased - LOL

Plus its a 20 minute drive from my house.

I can't argue with that one! I wish Ari-Ben wasn't in Florida - **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, I hate this lousy flat state!

 

[bobbysamd]

SWA v. P F T

What about SWA dont you have to buy your type rating? wouldnt that be PFT?

No. P-F-T is strictly an employment issue. For something to be P-F-T, the company, as a condition of employment, will require you to pay for your own training. In most situations, the company trains you at its expense. P-F-T is tantamount to buying a job, which is abhorred and deplorable.

Southwest requires a 737 type, but you are getting that on your own. Or, you might have worked for someone, e.g. United or the Air Force, that typed you in 737s on their nickel. Southwest is still required under Part 121 to provide you with initial training to fly its 737s its way. Southwest does not charge you for your training.

Hope that clears up that issue, again.

 

[Sig]

Their instructional oppurtunities arent as good as ATP. Their cross country's arent the same. At ATP, you are actually moving aircraft from school to school as they are needed, so there are no real "out 'n back" X-countrys where its only a few hours.

Also ATP offers Sim training, exactly what your Airline will be conducted in, not an actual aircraft. FTD's aren't an aircraft, there is no "flying by the seat of your pants", it forces you to develop a good instrument scan.

Plus its a 20 minute drive from my house.

No offense, Jetter.... When you become more of an authority on the subject, become an authority on the subject.

ATP's bread and butter training is not conducted during a XC- those AC repositions are done during the "XC" phase of the ACPP in which an instructor isn't on board, while most of the add-on and ACPP training is done locally. I did my best to make every training flight a XC, but when you're limited to two 2.0 hour flights with a specific profile to an airport 15 miles away, you just can't. On top of that, out-and-backs were typical at Dallas.

The FTD argument is a little specious. After instructing at ATP, I flew an FTD during my first 135-job training. It was a Level 6. The only reason I feel that I rocked all over that training was that I had just flown 100 hours of hard IFR in a pressurized Baron by myself over the previous two months. Experience, period. Same goes for the first time I flew in a Level D simulator. Experience ruled the day- you could figure out who had the stick time easily.

The FTD is extremely useful for ironing out the problems the student has, however. Be it SA, a scan, or getting un-flustered during a cascade of bad events, it is a lot cheaper (and safer!) than with the engines running. It is a fully available resource to the students, as well as the instructors. I remember sitting by myself and flying the goofiest approaches I could find, at 10:30 pm, after showing at the airport at 6:-- am, with another show at 6:-- am, only TO FLY IT for the heck out of it. This is with a brand new baby at home!

The FTD time is moot after your commercial checkride. It affords you plenty of experience toward the fundamentals, but I can't really see the translation to the higher level flying that you imply exists.

Incidentally, I flew the 'sim' at ATP Dallas for the FAA for 8 hours during the QTG compliance stuff, making it the only Part 61 sim in the district FAA-authorized to do certain things... I know of what I speak. =]

I would like to take you on a flight in the PC12 or the King Air/Cessna 414/P-Baron I fly, then put you in an AST300. I don't have an FTD available, but I do have plenty of empty right seat time for you- you might have a blast.

You'll see the value in the FTD- it is very real, but real-plane by-yourself-decision-making is where you will learn to be a valued crew member.

If it comes down to Ari-Ben or ATP, it really should hinge on what the gut tells the spender. Period.

Keep pluggin' away. PM me for more info.