Training Contract

[fr8r]

He is exactly correct. If you do sign the "training contract" then make sure it includes the conditions of employment in the contract. They always promise everything and then hold you to the contract even though the pay is completely different in what they told you.

Get it in writing ALSO!

The attorney says I am Fu..Ked, so any ideas NOW.

Anyone have and ideas on what happens if you don't pay?

Get a new attorney. Where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[Corona]

I think a more accurate description is that sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. There are many variables that effect the outcome of these matters. I ran across this case last month that had a favorable outcome for the pilot. The outcome depends on the laws of the State where the contract is seeking to be enforced and the specific facts of the case. Every case is different. I would suggest consulting with at least one more attorney before shelling out 12K to get out of a contract. Since you never said what state the matter is in, there is little more I can tell you. Good luck.

The case is quoted in two parts b/c it would not all fit in one post.

"In opposition to defendant's motion, Excelaire submitted the affidavit of its Director of Operations, George Kyriacou; a copy of a letter from Excelaire management notifying defendant Wolkiewicz that the aircraft he piloted would be grounded from service for maintenance and that he could only continue his employment with Excelaire on the condition that he accept a demotion from a full time pilot to a part time status. Excelaire also submitted a copy of defendant Wolkiewicz's letter of resignation."

Good post, VH. I think this is the key paragraph^: They gave him a "choice" to be laid off or have his pay reduced. This means that the contract is now null and void.

In my state, you have the option of being laid off if an employer reduces your pay. You don't have to take reduced pay, and they must pay you your full salary until you leave.

I would never work for a company again that pulled this stunt on me.

C

 

[Corona]

I wonder if we as pilots could have a counter employment contract that the employers would have to sign before we signed their training contract?

I had one co-pilot who almost did that with one of the sleazeball operators in Portland, OR. He took the contract back to his lawyer, who read it and laughed his head off.

They put in exceptions such as salary, days off, etc. After it was rewritten, my co-worker signed off & sent it to the company's chief pilot.

He followed up a couple more times but never heard back from them.

Companies like that rely on stupid pilots.

C

 

[stupidpilot]

I will tell you right now that the contracts DO HOLD UP IN COURT. You had better have a very good file of PROOF to even think about getting out of it.

The contract I had was the most basic you have ever seen and they won.

HAP

Depends on the state. If it a right to work state (like Texas is) they are technically illegal. But, if the judge is sympathetic to the owner(ie a campaign donor) then he'll probably rule in the companie's favor. However, campaign donations are a matter of public record. So you could probably force a recusal by that judge due to a conflict of interest. Good Luck!

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Great post Van. I think everyone should read the part on the decision where other cases are refered to that essentially state that some of the provisions in the contract were illegal from the start. Great advice people here give. Don't rely on the company to write a contract that is entirely legal. Like Corona said, these companies rely on stupid pilots. Hopefully OI812 will get an understanding from this. The companies that require these aren't always on the up and up. Just because someone wears a suit doesn't mean a damn thing about their regard for legal matters.

Mr. I.

 

[FlyingMoose]

But most of us learned early on to draw a line in the sand, even if it means walking away from a job.

The original poster signed a contract. He gave his word. A man would pay up.

The waisting of bandwidth aside, it seems plausible that the original poster is in essence drawing the proverbial line in the sand and ultimately walking away from a job because of it.

Obviously, we don't know to what degree any of the conditions the poster explains exist. But as you stated "most of us have been there and done that". I feel certain there are employers in all industries that would do this; I know there are in aviation. All of your analogies withstanding, certainly no PIC (or SIC, FEX, FA, etc.) should violate a regulation or compromise safety at the demand of the employer, but we know some employers will do just that, knowingly and unknowingly, by both direct and indirect methods in a sometimes seemingly blind pursuit of revenue.

Yes, he signed a contract (of which we arguably don't know the legal merit or wording), but I'm sure in his opinion, understanding, and intent in signing it was that it applied to a specific job function, stated compensation, promised work conditions, etc. If those change in the manner the poster explained then the faith of the contract is violated, i.e broken and the employer has not held up his obligations in the contract.

FWIW, I have refused to sign training contracts, even with employers that "require" them for many of the issues discussed in this thread. However, I have experienced issues with employers that, had I signed one, certainly would have justified voiding the contract and I would have done so with good conscience. Yes, I consider myself a highly ethical person and greatly value my word, but the simple fact is the some people (managers, employers, and employees alike) do not and will lie to you. I think it is great advice to have conditions specifically addressed in a contract, but just because they are not doesn't remove both parties obligations in a contract... ethically speaking.

 

[leenick]

The number one enemy in aviation is the PILOT themselves. We have been screwing our self for many years. Signing contracts, working for chump change just to get the flying time and have an opportunity to fly something with two engines or more. Yes, we really have nobody to blame but ourselves. That's why the employers can have contracts, and pay little, because there are some many on the outside looking in and will take the job at any cost---just let me fly---I will do anything mentality.
Yes I have been on the outside and on the inside, but I have never paid for training or signed any contracts; and as a side note, my son has never signed any or paid for any training either.
I would like to see all pilots stick together--you know, like a union. Low pay, tell them to go F---off, contract---dido. At some point in time, the pay will go up and maybe we can all make a livable wage. That's what happened many years ago with nurses, now they enjoy good money and even signing bonuses.
The company I work for started a co-pilot at $21k a year plus a contract to fly a Lear in a 135 operation. However, the company is not pressing the pilot for the money since he left a few weeks ago. That's good for him; otherwise he would be in debt even more.
Any idea's on a national pilots union? LET'S UNITE!!

 

[Pigpilot]

Those are good words Leenick. I have been preaching that for a long time. We all need to be team players in this business. Not too may other jobs out there where your employer puts you in charge of a mulit-million dollar piece of equipment and multiple human lives that pays as little as it does. Greyhound pays lots more when you start out driving a bus. Now, were's the line of perspective drivers for that one saying to themselves, "Wow, it's got 10 tires on it. I have got to drive that!"
Where's the logic in OUR business to do what we do for next to nothing just so another CEO can purchase more motorcycles and cars to add to their collection? To watch another CEO walk away from an airline with multi-million dollar BONUS'S for aiding them in reducing their crew costs in an effort to get out of bankrupcy.
As the sheep wait by the fence for the gate to open so they can run to the slaughter-house!

 

[stlpilot]

Thread Revival

I’m new to the cooperate gig and have just had an offer made but with a training contract of one year that pro-rates for everyday worked. The pay and benefits are slightly above standard so I’m not working for chump change and after the initial year you never sign anything again. From reading this thread the majority seems to frown upon contracts, but are they all bad? It seems somewhat reasonable for a company to get what they pay for so that the employee does not take the type rating and run on em. This particular company seems to check out and so far I’ve, talked extensively with other company pilots, my old boss/personal friend knows the president, and simply doing my own research. Of course I’m well aware someone can still get burnt even after taking all these precautions.

If worse comes to worse and they pull a “Jeckle and Hyde” on me I could consider taking mil leave till the contract expires. So would you all suggest consulting an aviation lawyer with the contact along with walking in with some ideas of what I want to see in it before signing? Has anyone approached their new employer with these demands only to have them frown upon their intensions and/or act like you are the first person to do it? Obviously that would not be a good sign, to me anyways. Oh and I have an “offer letter” that has the salary and benefits listed in it, so should that be good enough or should all of that be written in the contract as well?

I kind of get the feeling that some contracts are very bad while others are not so bad. Very confused on this one, first priority is to watch my back but yet not be overzealous and start off on the wrong foot with them barking a bunch of demands. Thanks for the guidance.

 

[Corona]

Most of the contracts discussed here are very one-sided. If you want to sign a contract -and many jobs require it- you should have it checked by an employment lawyer; aviation lawyers don't know anything about employment law.
Make sure you are covered in the event of management changes to your job. It won't cost you your job; it will just void the contract from that point forth and give you the option of leaving or staying without penalty.
If they are a reputable company, they will not have a problem including language that protects you from abuse. If they are not, you probably will not hear from them again, which is also a good answer to receive at least for the long term.
It's nothing personal; protecting your interests. It's just business.

Good luck,
C

 

[leenick]

STLPILOT, from reading your thread it appears that you may have found a company worth working for, but again, if you plan on signing a contract be sure that it covers you, as well as the company. Check out what CORONA had to say, he pretty much summed it up, protect yourself.
In any event, a company that will provide a letter of offer for employment sounds like a worthy company, but it has been my experience that most large companies very seldom require a contract, they hire on good faith. If you think about it, the company is telling you that they don't trust you and they want a contract to protect themselves in the event you depart the fix after training and a short period time working for them.
However, it may be a good thing, provided it gives you what you want and you get to live where you want and it provides a life outside of the company with great pay and benefits as well as a schedule.
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR NEW CAREER PATH! Let me know how it goes.

 

[Publishers]

Let me respond from our perspective. It is not correct that the only companies that require training contracts are the ones that break regs or are bad employers. People leave companies for all kinds of reasons besides they are somehow being mistreated. If I hire you and pay for a type rating, I have enhanced your marketability in the industry. We try and hire only people that already have types as do others. It saves them money obviously plus when you hire a new person, perhaps they are not going to work out. Re-current is not much of an issue with us, only types. Companies and pilots are often not on the same career path. While it would be nice for a company to hire Joe to fly their piston twin and then they keep getting bigger and Joe keeps progressing upward, the fact is that sometimes that I SP is all they need now and may be all they need 10 years from now. There is nothing wrong with a company saying we will pay for your rating, but, you are required to pay us back if you decided you want to leave.
The violating of regs and the rest is a different employment issue

 

[heywatchthis]

Since I started this thread I figure I would give the update/ conclusion.

My previous employer settled for an undisclosed amount of money the day we were suppose to go to court. I am pissed because I feel I paid too much for the working conditions I had to endore and they are pissed because they feel they accepted too little for the cost of the type rating they paid. It was a pain in the ass and we negotiated for over 1.5 years.

The wisdom I learned. You can be sued for a training contract so proceed with that in mind. But don't let that stop you from advancing your career and gaining experience.

I would and did sign another contract for a new type rating (different employer). I don't have a problem doing this, but now I interview the employer more then they interview me. And anything promised, I always get in writing.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

but now I interview the employer more then they interview me. And anything promised, I always get in writing.

Amen. Always go to an interview thinking they need you more than you need them. Perhaps it portrays signs of confidence. That can only work in your favor.

 

[G-force]

Interview the Company

Since I started this thread I figure I would give the update/ conclusion.

My previous employer settled for an undisclosed amount of money the day we were suppose to go to court. I am pissed because I feel I paid too much for the working conditions I had to endore and they are pissed because they feel they accepted too little for the cost of the type rating they paid. It was a pain in the ass and we negotiated for over 1.5 years.

The wisdom I learned. You can be sued for a training contract so proceed with that in mind. But don't let that stop you from advancing your career and gaining experience.

I would and did sign another contract for a new type rating (different employer). I don't have a problem doing this, but now I interview the employer more then they interview me. And anything promised, I always get in writing.

Sounds like good advice!! I would also ask how many pilots have left the company in the last 12 months,turnover is a good indicator that things are not going well,also would ask about how many times the owner(s) have filed Chapter 11 inthe last 20 years,and a check with the local FSDO for complaints and violations.

 

[AC560]

So would you all suggest consulting an aviation lawyer with the contact

I would recommend to anyone signing a contract of any kind (training or otherwise) to spend $100-$200 to have a lawyer review it and explain to you what it means.

If you take any advice off a Internet forum take the advice to consult a licensed and trained professional in the area that you are seeking advice in before you make a final decision.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

TAKE TRAINING CONTRACTS SERIOUSLY BEFORE SIGNING. I learned that after the process server showed up at my door with an ominous stack of documents demanding thousands of dollars. After two years of out-of-state litigation, I won that case.

I know of a recent case where the pilots won their training contract and back pay issues because the employer was deemed to be running an illegal operation (FAR violations). But in that case, the FAA had already sanctioned the company for the violations.

With adequate documentation, you can usually defend yourself on grounds of "fraud" or "illegality" or "material change of terms," as has been shown. The best idea is to not blindly step into these agreements all starry-eyed over an airplane. You can wind up in a pile of hurt later (either by really getting hurt in a crash or FAA action, or by winding up being sued).

Yeah, I wish we would all just say no to training contracts, but we are an industry full of ladder-climbers. Someone is always willing to outbid you. All you can do is defend yourself by choosing your employers wisely.

 

[TxPilot0878]

I was in a contract and got tired of one of the type jets I was flying. I was still under an FO contract but the CP said I would be upgrading....COOL!!!

The problem was the jet I was upgrading in was the jet with the problems....so I told them I would upgrade in the other equipment that I was flying...."NO!" was their answer. WE HIRED YOU TO FLY 2 types of jets and you will! Even though most my experience was in the one I wanted to fly.

Long story short...I refused and was handed my walking papers while still an FO...I figured broke is better than dead, mangled, or VIOLATED! The equipment was poorly maintained at BEST!

They I had an in house lawyer and I had mine plus prepaid legal....my lawyers said settle on anything under 6K (contract was 12,000) because it cost that anyway...or in their words "just to get started!"

The owners brother was legal council for the company and basically could back charge me if they won at any rate he wanted. I presented and argued my case including all the facts good and bad...and they settled out of court. Now its over...no dings on my credit...I payed them a settled amount that I felt I owed....as I DID BREAK THE CONTRACT I SIGNED....I never argued that I didn't owe them anything. I did owe them I SIGNED THEIR CONTRACT!!!
I knew what I was signing when I hired onto that outfit but I needed the job...so they paid and so did I. The thing is unless there is a gun to your head....if you have ever done 135 before you can look at the outfit and get a good feel through the interview...what you are getting into. Discuss 1st an amount, then payment options, when, how, if you have a rainy day is there any grace period...things like that.

HOPE THIS HELPS....GOOD LUCK!!!!

Tex

 

[Corona]

I was in a contract and got tired of one of the type jets I was flying. I was still under an FO contract but the CP said I would be upgrading....COOL!!!

The problem was the jet I was upgrading in was the jet with the problems....so I told them I would upgrade in the other equipment that I was flying...."NO!" was their answer. WE HIRED YOU TO FLY 2 types of jets and you will! Even though most my experience was in the one I wanted to fly.

Long story short...I refused and was handed my walking papers while still an FO...I figured broke is better than dead, mangled, or VIOLATED! The equipment was poorly maintained at BEST!

They I had an in house lawyer and I had mine plus prepaid legal....my lawyers said settle on anything under 6K (contract was 12,000) because it cost that anyway...or in their words "just to get started!"

The owners brother was legal council for the company and basically could back charge me if they won at any rate he wanted. I presented and argued my case including all the facts good and bad...and they settled out of court. Now its over...no dings on my credit...I payed them a settled amount that I felt I owed....as I DID BREAK THE CONTRACT I SIGNED....I never argued that I didn't owe them anything. I did owe them I SIGNED THEIR CONTRACT!!!
I knew what I was signing when I hired onto that outfit but I needed the job...so they paid and so did I. The thing is unless there is a gun to your head....if you have ever done 135 before you can look at the outfit and get a good feel through the interview...what you are getting into. Discuss 1st an amount, then payment options, when, how, if you have a rainy day is there any grace period...things like that.

HOPE THIS HELPS....GOOD LUCK!!!!

Tex

If they fired you and you still paid, you got screwed. The contract was null and void at that time due to circumstances beyond your control.

All the more evidence that one needs competent legal counsel.

C

 

[Nolife]

I was in a contract and got tired of one of the type jets I was flying. I was still under an FO contract but the CP said I would be upgrading....COOL!!!

The problem was the jet I was upgrading in was the jet with the problems....so I told them I would upgrade in the other equipment that I was flying...."NO!" was their answer. WE HIRED YOU TO FLY 2 types of jets and you will! Even though most my experience was in the one I wanted to fly.

Tex

You should have stayed your cotract, upgraded, and squawked everything wrong with the airplane.

Taxi out, somethings not right, taxi back and squawk it. They'll get the message and either not assign you the airplane, fix it, or fire you... however you would have had a legal recourse by documenting all that was wrong.