Training Contract

[heywatchthis]

OK, I am sure this has been discussed many times and yes I did do a search and found some good info. But....

Does anyone have any ideas for a defense or how to get out of not paying for a training contract after leaving early.

My previous employer (yes I was employed and now quite), is suing me for $21K. I only stayed for 5 months not 12 months. I planned on staying but I was lied to about days off, pay, working conditions, forced to violate regs, changed perdiem, and changed call out times. So I found another job. My attorney says that the conditions of employement doesn't matter seeing how it was not included in the contract. Any loopholes? Any ideas? Can they really collect? How bad will it hurt my credit? and can they ever force me to pay the debt.

Thanks.

 

[NEDude]

I asked a family member who is an attorney, who deals with contracts, about these training contracts. He said that generally there is nothing wrong with this type of arrangement. The enforceablility depends on the stipulations of the contract, the reason for seperation (resigned, furloughed, fired) and the laws of the state on which the contract was signed.

Best to get a good attorney to review the specifics and give you the best advice as no doubt the company in question has legal advice on their side as well.

A word of warning to pilots looking for jobs - don't sign a training contract. There is a reason these companies require them - and usually it is because their pay, working conditions and equipment is so bad that there is no way most people want to stay. If people stopped signing these contracts, maybe these companies would be forced to improve the working environment.

 

[heywatchthis]

He is exactly correct. If you do sign the "training contract" then make sure it includes the conditions of employment in the contract. They always promise everything and then hold you to the contract even though the pay is completely different in what they told you.

Get it in writing ALSO!

The attorney says I am Fu..Ked, so any ideas NOW.

Anyone have and ideas on what happens if you don't pay?

 

[splatt]

I've always been told that training contracts are not enforceable unless written very well. If you can't get out of it perhaps you could go back to work for them as a disgruntled pilot with very poor customer service skills that gets sick often?

 

[soarby007]

My question is...why do you sign something, agree to it, then after things so south, whine. You have to watch what you sign with open eyes and be prepared for the consequences. You're gonna pay someone, even if it's the attorney, who always wins.

 

[ruhroa]

soarboy007... i can only speak for me ............. I don't get what i was promised ....the contract was signed over 7 yrs ago and best i can tell it is still in force............. and quite honestly just like the pay for training debates on here.............................. if you are on the inside looking out it is a lot easier to be high and mighty and morally correct.................... but when you are on the outs looking to put food on the table ...............well thats something else is it not?

 

[Oh-ryan]

My question is...why do you sign something, agree to it, then after things so south, whine. You have to watch what you sign with open eyes and be prepared for the consequences. You're gonna pay someone, even if it's the attorney, who always wins.

I think you need to cut him some slack as it appears that this is the first time he has found himself in this particular situation (under contract at a lousy company). I am sure he has learned his lesson. Nice to see that you view someone who complains about being forced to violate regs as a whiner though.

 

[brvopilot]

Great post!

Was just think about asking this same question. For me, it is more about my word. I'm in a contract now (expires this May) and although I have received some attractive offers that financially would make sense to leave...I just can't. Besides that it would put my employer in a bind, it would also make me look awful. I gave my word. All I can do is wait and hope that those offers come up again when I am ready (probably not but what are you gonna do?) I know my current employer will still be pissed when I leave but at least I can know I did my part, right?

Don't get me wrong, if my employer was continually violating FARs or seriously putting my life or career in jeopardy it might be a different story. It is like a marriage...till death do us part, but there are some deal breakers.

 

[soarby007]

Yep, your word should be your bond. I'm never said you should stay in a situation where you are required to "break regs". Most guys who sign these things always have in the back of their mind..."These people won't sue me". Then when a better deal comes along they try it.

I also signed a trainng contract once. After I signed it I thought about a lot of details I wish I'd put in, such as..1.What if I die, will my spouse be responsible? 2. What if they sell the airplane, am I required to stay? 3. What if .......
There was a time limit and once it expired, the contract went away. I did advise the next guys to add a few things to protect themselves and the company agreed. I kept my end of the bargain though. I wasn't required to violate regs, but I could have argued about working conditions, which existed when I signed, but I stayed. You have to be careful when you enter into these contracts and open your eyes, not your bank account.

 

[Twisted Mind]

A friend of mine was able to settle out of court for half of the training agreement. I know it still hurts but it is better than the full amount. He also was f-cked.

 

[G-force]

Reciprocal Contracts

OK, I am sure this has been discussed many times and yes I did do a search and found some good info. But....

Does anyone have any ideas for a defense or how to get out of not paying for a training contract after leaving early.

My previous employer (yes I was employed and now quite), is suing me for $21K. I only stayed for 5 months not 12 months. I planned on staying but I was lied to about days off, pay, working conditions, forced to violate regs, changed perdiem, and changed call out times. So I found another job. My attorney says that the conditions of employement doesn't matter seeing how it was not included in the contract. Any loopholes? Any ideas? Can they really collect? How bad will it hurt my credit? and can they ever force me to pay the debt.

Thanks.

Tell the prospective employer that you will sign their contract only under certain conditions.These conditions need to be spelled-out in writing,such as
1.if you die your next of kin is not liable.
2.if the aircraft(s) are sold, that you are free to leave.
3.that you will be paid what you are promised to be paid.
4.that you will be treated professionally.
5.that at no time will the pilot be ordered to violate FAR's,not even implied threats can be used.

Put these conditions in a contract form,offer it to the employer when they offer you their PFT contract.If they refuse to sign your contract,then do not sign theirs.Consider the reaction you get.It will tell you all you need to KNOW!!!!!

 

[ksu_aviator]

Looked around on Google and found a case in Maryland that is not all that unsimilar. Long story short, this guy left a job to work for a company that misrepresented to terms of the position. The employee sued the company and won based on Negligent Misrepresentation.

http://venable.com/publications.cfm?action=view&publication_id=646&publication_type_id=1

 

[ksu_aviator]

BTW...in any case where you "give your word" and the employer does not hold up thier end of the deal, "your word" is no longer in question.

 

[cjdriver]

Be careful when signing an agreement that you know what the costs are, they may not be specific, and if so they could hit you up for travel, lodging, expenses, as well as training costs from Simuflite/FSI. They may even charge you for replacing you with a contract pilot. Quitting before the training agtreement expires is just executing the options spelled out in the contract, which is to say you'll be paying them back. Always assume the worst possible scenario when taking a job, and think about how you'll deal with it. Be able to pay or don't sign. A lot of the contracts I've seen lately don't even give you an out if you get fired for cause.

 

[Going2Baja]

HWT - What state are you in? If Calif I've heard training contracts aren't legal, kind of the same reason that Calif residents can't be asked to pay an application fee or be asked to pay for their own training.

If your lawyer says you're hosed - get another attorney!

Good luck!!

Baja.

 

[FO4life]

In PA, if you accept a job in your field of employment at a higher pay, the contract will not stand. No job can keep you from improving your life style, regardless of what you sign.

 

[Corona]

A word of warning to pilots looking for jobs - don't sign a training contract. There is a reason these companies require them - and usually it is because their pay, working conditions and equipment is so bad that there is no way most people want to stay. If people stopped signing these contracts, maybe these companies would be forced to improve the working environment.

This is good advice.

I used to be marginally on the side of people who say: "If you sign the paper, do the time (or pay)."

I don't agree with that anymore, for exactly the reasons NEDude states: Those operators are the scum of the air and should be treated as such by every pilot who uses them to build time. After all, your career and probably your life are in danger the entire time of your employment. They aren't paying you enough for that.

Now, if a reputable operator asks me to give my word I will work at least a year after getting my type, without signing a contract, I'm all in favor of that.

I also agree that if you don't like what your attorney told you, get another. I can't imagine the contract is without loopholes.

C

 

[Freight Dog]

Heywatchthis...

You allege that the company was making you violate regs. Do you have documentation? If so... you SHOULD be home free.

If you can PROVE your allegations, then you should be OK, hell you might be able to sue them. If not.... well, depends on the state.

But most importantly, get an aviation attorney.

 

[jafo20]

Good luck, man. For what it's worth, I've only heard of a few guys getting really slammed with training contracts. So, unless you're in a lousy state with a lousy attorney, you should be able to swing something. At least get it down from 21k.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Any loopholes? Any ideas? Can they really collect? How bad will it hurt my credit? and can they ever force me to pay the debt.

Thanks.

1) Probably 2)Maybe 3) Yes, if you don't fight back 4) If they get a judgement against you, real bad. 5) Yes! Wage garnishment will follow you around no matter where you go. It will take some time, but they will find you.

What state are you located? Agreed, find another attorney. Do you have AOPA legal? The legal plan will not fight this for you, but they will give you some good advice. As someone asked, is there documentation and/or other company (ex)pilots that would testify on your behalf? Did you speak to management to try to improve the situation before leaving? Did you get a substantial pay raise at your new job? The last two speak for character and motivation. Lastly, do you have $12,250 to pay for 7/12 of the training contract? If so, offer it up and make this go away. If this goes to court and you have not counter sued, then you can probably ask for arbitration and have another chance to pay the $12,250. So what state are you located?

How about telling us who this operator is that you use to work for. Save others from falling into the same trap.

 

[timeoff]

If you sign the contract, end your signature with s.u.d. (signed under duress), essentially saying that you didn't want to sign it but were left no other option. That will tell a judge that you entered the agreement forcibily. Might hold up, might not. Either way it will cost you to breach it.

Also, if you are head of household for tax filing purposes, your wages cannot be garnished.

 

[AC560]

Just as general advice you should have any training contract reviewed by a lawyer prior to signing it. I realize it is a couple $100 but it is money well spent. If you decide to a break a contract you should speak to a lawyer prior to breaking it, not after.

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

If you sign the contract, end your signature with s.u.d. (signed under duress), essentially saying that you didn't want to sign it but were left no other option. That will tell a judge that you entered the agreement forcibily. Might hold up, might not. Either way it will cost you to breach it.

Also, if you are head of household for tax filing purposes, your wages cannot be garnished.

Good to know, I will keep that in mind and use it next time I sign something I don't really want to sign.

As for wage garnishment, that is not true in IL. I helped with the payroll awhile back and every now and then we would get notices from the state to start garnishing X employee's wages (divorced, living on his own, definetly head of household). Usually was a child support issue. As soon as we started doing this we knew it would not be long before these employees would quit. It really doesn't matter, if they get a judgement against you, you will always have to worry about them coming after assets until they are paid.

 

[LJDRVR]

Forced to violate regs?

Are you putting me on?

Please give some specific examples, because what it sounds like is you are trying to justify your inability to keep your word by complaining about how they didn't keep theirs, all the while searching for some loophole to discharge you from your responsibilities. (That you were more than happy to accept to get the job!)

My suggestion is to join adulthood and pay up. are you asserting that you somehow grew a backbone and quit after five whole months of willingly disregarding procedural and regulatory guidance?

I'm sorry you're out the money. I certainly wish we worked in an industry where such documents were not required, but you gave your word, you went to training and you took the job.

Here's a suggestion: Sit down with your ex-employer, outline their broken promises, discuss why you left because of that, and make them an offer. Maybe give them a check for 10K if they are willing to sign a letter of recommendation for you first. Tell them their other option is to take you to court. This way you fulfill your obligation, and you have a good reference. This is at the heart of your problem. While it's possible to succeed in aviation without it, the goodwill of your former employers make a huge difference when you're representing yourself to a potential employer. Being able to walk in to the interview with letters from each of your former employers is a big deal.

Anyways, that's my worthless opinion.

Does your word mean anything to you? (That's not rhetorical, does it?)

 

[G-force]

Money & Ex-employers

Forced to violate regs?

Are you putting me on?

Please give some specific examples, because what it sounds like is you are trying to justify your inability to keep your word by complaining about how they didn't keep theirs, all the while searching for some loophole to discharge you from your responsibilities. (That you were more than happy to accept to get the job!)

My suggestion is to join adulthood and pay up. are you asserting that you somehow grew a backbone and quit after five whole months of willingly disregarding procedural and regulatory guidance?

I'm sorry you're out the money. I certainly wish we worked in an industry where such documents were not required, but you gave your word, you went to training and you took the job.

Here's a suggestion: Sit down with your ex-employer, outline their broken promises, discuss why you left because of that, and make them an offer. Maybe give them a check for 10K if they are willing to sign a letter of recommendation for you first. Tell them their other option is to take you to court. This way you fulfill your obligation, and you have a good reference. This is at the heart of your problem. While it's possible to succeed in aviation without it, the goodwill of your former employers make a huge difference when you're representing yourself to a potential employer. Being able to walk in to the interview with letters from each of your former employers is a big deal.

Anyways, that's my worthless opinion.

Does your word mean anything to you? (That's not rhetorical, does it?)

One would not EVER want to offer money to an ex-employer!!!!!

 

[LJDRVR]

One would not EVER want to offer money to an ex-employer!!!!!

Even when one gave one's word?

Is your word and reputation worth more than the cost of a training contract? Mine is.

 

[CAP E TON]

I believe you hwt. I have been TOLD to fly, not asked to fly with alot of sh##t broke. And wake up LJDRVR no company in the interview will tell you the truth about the company. There MANAGEMENT and they got there by kissing ass. No company I have every seen cares about your ticket. I say screw the company if they didnt hold there end up. Then don't hold your end. and someone smells like management. somewhere I smell the stench.

 

[LJDRVR]

I believe you hwt. I have been TOLD to fly, not asked to fly with alot of sh##t broke.

Wow, so you're not even the PIC on your airplane, the company is? You need to grow a pair and start doing the right thing. 4000 hours of flying time is a little bit late in your career to be foolishly breaking rules at your employer's behest.

And wake up LJDRVR no company in the interview will tell you the truth about the company.

So, what's that got to do with anything? Are you saying your word doesn't mean anything if you've been lied to? Are you asserting it's alright to practice integrity on a sliding scale based solely on what's convenient and "fair" to you at the given moment? That's what it sounds like to me.

Here's a thought: Dishonest folks like you are one of the reasons training contracts exist. Child-pilots willing to violate procedural and regulatory guidance simply because they were "told to" is one reason why we continue to have so many bottom feeder companies.

Here's two questions for you guys:

• Is it O.K. to make a written promise in order to obtain employment, then renege on your word?

• Who is the PIC on your airplane, CAP-E-TON?

The only stench I smell here is flimsy rationalization of dishonesty, mixed with the pungent aroma of poor airmanship.

Flame away, bring on the poor spelling and grammar, you guys know I'm right.

 

[CAP E TON]

ya my word means sh*t if your going to abuse me when you said that it wasnt going to happen. second being a young aviator who wants to keep his first job or first turbine job will do anything to keep it, even if it means no back talk and flying piece of crap airplanes with everything broke to keep the company happy with you. Ive put my foot down before just to see a sh*tty pilot get a type over me because he knows how to kiss ass and take the flight. Guess you've never flown freight or for a crappy management company( which is the only way to get your first hours of turbine). Getting 500 hours in the military and going to sling gear right seat in a rj would teach you nothing about what I'm talking about.

 

[LJDRVR]

This is a waste of bandwidth debating the issue with somebody possessing your poor communication skills and lack of ability to see who your audience is, but what the heck...I'm bored. And I'll now remove all nasty snide comments and tone in an effort to get a real dialogue going here.

I have worked my way up through this industry and was never handed anything on a silver platter. It took me over eleven years to go from 300 hour CFI to major airline new hire. During that time I worked as an Instructor, Freight Dog, Charter Pilot, Director of Safety and Regional Pilot. (Both seats) Before you accuse me of not having walked a mile in your shoes, please take a closer look at my profile. (Enlisted dudes don't fly.)

You contend that crappy outfits somehow "force" pilots to operate in an unsafe manner out of fear for their jobs. I believe what really happens is lazy, undisciplined aviators take the easy way out when faced with a difficult decision. Most of us have been there and done that, myself included. But most of us learned early on to draw a line in the sand, even if it means walking away from a job.

What truly bothers me about your post is the assertion that you were somehow forced against your will to do something unsafe. YOU are the Pilot In Command. YOU are responsible for not taking any unnecessary risks. YOU are the one responsible for the lives of your passengers and/or the innocent people on the ground under your flight path.

You then use this victim mentality to justify your poor airmanship and your lack of ability to honor an agreement you made. (A promise, in other words.)

"I'll get fired if I don't fly this broken (Illegal) airplane!"

How do you know? If you don't take a stand and attempt to do the right thing, you're just assuming and rationalizing. I worked for a 135 operation that played fast and loose with the rules. Although my anal retentive safety first attitude sometimes angered the dispatcher, management and owner, that same reputation kept me from having to say no, because they already knew the answer and stopped asking me. In the end, I walked away with the respect of the people I worked for, one of whom's recommendation recently won favorable comments during an interview. We all did stupid stuff when we were young and had our first jobs. (My Mother-in-Law drove my Wife and Son home from the hospital because I didn't have the balls to tell my employer no.) What I'm saying is that with four thousand hours, you should no longer be making excuses. You should know better is all I'm saying.

As to your belief that your word doesn't mean anything when you've lied to first? Sad. All I can say is I hope most people in society don't feel the same way you do. My kids will certainly be taught otherwise.

The original poster signed a contract. He gave his word. A man would pay up.