Training Contract Woes

[KeroseneSnorter]

Spend a few bucks to consult with an attorny, but gut feeling is they terminated you so you are off the hook.

 

[FN FAL]

What I don't know is why you guys sign these things. I have signed three and when I took those jobs, it was a no brainer that I was going to stay for at least a year without the contract anyway.

Next time you're at a job interview and they say, "you're hired!" When they slide that puppy across the table and ask you to sign the form, put it in your attache case and tell them you don't sign contracts untill someone who knows what the hell the legalities are splains something to you.

If they don't like it, walk.

 

[A Squared]

Spend a few bucks to consult with an attorny, but gut feeling is they terminated you so you are off the hook.

Depends. I think many training contracts require you to pay if you were terminated "for cause". Otherwise training contracts would be ridiculously easy to get out of. Just don't show up for work. they fire you. you're out of the contract. So now it becomes a question of whether he was terminated for cause which opens the door for a lot of mud slinging. Unless he has a termination notice in his hand which says "Dear Wiggsfly, we are terminating you due to a reduction in workforce due to no fault of your own" it may be a pretty rocky road.

pilotmiketx, still nothing intelligent to say on the issue, I see

 

[AirBP]

Well, for some reason I signed at my old company. They changed their mind with me and decided to make it 3 years at 6000 dollars and right after I signed I was told new FOs are too dumb for any real training and the training contract was just because he was sick of new FOs quitting for the airlines. The agreement I signed said they were giving me a $6000 grant on July 1. After July 1 I flew along on 1 pt91 trip which was billed to the customer and I took my checkride (which I was specifically told did not count to the agreement). To show how much training I had on the checkride I had no idea of stall procedures and as it was only my first time flying an actual pattern it was less than pretty to say the least.

Exactly what kind of training in what kind of a/c did you receive? Was it the equivilant of what you would expect to pay if you got the training from a flight training facility? Reading between the lines, it almost sounds like this company just wanted to scare you into not leaving, but really didn't provide any training. What kind of checkride did you take? Was there a sign-off in your logbook, or on some company training file? Were you paid a salary, or was this a 'warm body in the seat getting experience, and maybe some money too' deal? Is this a 135 operation, or strictly 91. 135, and 121, etc, have strict standards regarding what kind of training, and when it is performed. Initial training on a 'live' flight is prohibited. Were you qualified to be PIC, and did you act as one after training? Were you a required SIC, or a walking talking gear and flap actuator? My point is if you didn't GET trained then you don't really OWE them a training contract 'grant'. Frankly, they sound like a crap outfit, but you should keep an eye on your credit rating at the very least in case they but something in there. Good luck!
Brian

 

[wiggsfly]

Thats exactly what they told me. They have people sign them so they won't quit. It was for Citation ISP and IISPs (although they have since added a five). Training consisted of a company training record and a "checkride" with the owner of the company. For my "time" I was paid a daily rate. Training was "just ride along and watch" on part 91 flights with passengers (most were owner trips at least one was an illegal charter I later learned) and they billed the passengers for both the pilot and aircraft so there was NO money spent to train me.

Exactly what kind of training in what kind of a/c did you receive? Was it the equivilant of what you would expect to pay if you got the training from a flight training facility? Reading between the lines, it almost sounds like this company just wanted to scare you into not leaving, but really didn't provide any training. What kind of checkride did you take? Was there a sign-off in your logbook, or on some company training file? Were you paid a salary, or was this a 'warm body in the seat getting experience, and maybe some money too' deal? Is this a 135 operation, or strictly 91. 135, and 121, etc, have strict standards regarding what kind of training, and when it is performed. Initial training on a 'live' flight is prohibited. Were you qualified to be PIC, and did you act as one after training? Were you a required SIC, or a walking talking gear and flap actuator? My point is if you didn't GET trained then you don't really OWE them a training contract 'grant'. Frankly, they sound like a crap outfit, but you should keep an eye on your credit rating at the very least in case they but something in there. Good luck!
Brian

 

[wiggsfly]

To add to this on a related rant I can understand people getting pissed if there was time and effort wasted to train someone and they immediately take that experience to get a different job. I can also understand a company getting pissed for sending someone for a type-rating or any Simu-flight like training and having them quit right afterwards. Had any of those been the case with me I would not have been so quick to jump ship. As it is they gave me no real training and just had me ride along trips that would havev gone anyway. They told me flat out after I signed that new FOs couldn't handle real training (i.e flight safety, etc) so that was out of the question. I'm not really taking any of it with me. It didn't get me my new job. I'll be flying Caravans in a far off place for a place that didn't have any multi or 135 rerquirements. I was told this agreement was just to keep FOs from leaving.

I've never been so much as late on a library book so breaking any contract is not in my nature. In this case I am walking away from an agreement that had already been broken by the company long before I took a new job. They promised me training I didn't receive. The problem is now it looks like I'm going to have to fight it due to them wanting to be a pain-in-the-a## about it. That to me is aggravating. Outside of this forum I have a lawyer (I talked to one this afternoon) and friends telling me if anything I should be the one suing him after he threatened me to go to my new company and cause problems. I just don't want to stoop to that level if I don't have to. I just want to be out of here and done with it without looking back.

 

[FL420]

I would demand a copy of the training agreement. If they lost it, than you are in luck. If they DO have it, read it thoroughly and carefully. Don't pay a dime until you absolutely have to.IB
__________________
Who are you?!??!?!
I'M BATMAN!

I agree with Batman but would try to keep it calm and civil.

I suggest writing a letter to the President of the company and send it Certified, Return-receipt-requested. I would politely ask them to provide you with copies of any and all ground and flight training records, checkride forms, evaluations, job descriptions, training agreements and/or contracts and employment agreements and/or contracts. Tell them you need this information to properly "process their request for payment." Do not say you have no intention of paying but do not indicate you do have any intention of paying either.

This will put the ball in their court requiring them to put up or shut up. If they comply, you have some concrete evidence to take to an attorney to properly evaluate your case and recommend a course of action. More than likely, based on your description of events, they won't have the records and your letter will cause them to recognize the weakness of their case and put them on notice you won't be bullied into rolling over.

It sounds like you were very lucky to avoid having to explain to all your future employers why you busted an FAA checkride. Almost every airport has a fly-by-night operator like this. When I was younger, hungrier and stupider, I almost let a shyster like this kill me and my passengers(pencil-whipped maintenance.)

Don't expect any help from the FAA. Feel free to report anything you know but I suggest you do it anonymously. I think there is a tipline. You never know who is or was in bed with these guys. The FAA is like a traffic cop. Report someone who runs red lights all you want but if the cop doesn't see it with his own eyes he isn't going to do anything about it. He also isn't likely to do anything then if he's on his way to a shift change or a coffee break.

Make all your communications with this company in writing. Nothing verbal or via email. Keep it civil and build a paper trail.

Good luck.

 

[wiggsfly]

Thanks, i've requested a copy of the contract to no avail. As for reporting anyone to the FAA. That I will not do, but if I have to fight this in court it will be hard to avoid it coming out. Anyway, I'm working with a lawyer now and we'll what happens. Thank you all for your advice.

 

[pilotmiketx]

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[A Squared]

HAVE YOU BEEN HURT IN A CAR WRECK?..........Not certified by anyone.

That was actually pretty funny, I'll give you that. But you gotta ask yourself punk, why would you continue to draw attention to the fact that you still haven't got anything intelligent to say on the issue?

 

[pilotmiketx]

You obviously have enough intelligence for EVERYONE here. Stop picking on me. My mom says I'm special, but I know I'm a retard.

 

[smails]

why would anyone sign a contract in the first place? The companies get away with it because there are people who will sign the contract. Imagine if nobody would sign a contract, you might get hired for your qualifications.