Traffic Pattern Anyone?

[UndauntedFlyer]

New Traffic Pattern Question?

How about this? A non-towered airport has two runways, a 18-36 and a 9-27. Wx is 700 OVC & 2 on the visibility. You're making the ILS-LOC approach to Rwy 36 which has a NOTAM that it is a closed runway today for construction. Standard traffic to all runways. Wind is 090/15 so it's runway 9 for the planned circle to land. The question is can the pilot make right traffic and land runway 9 or does he have to come all the way over the field to make a left turn to runway 9? What would you do? What are the rules?

I think he has to come over the field and enter left traffic for runway 9. Can anybody show me contrary to any rules or AC on this subject?

What do you think?

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Hmmm, I feel an "Uncontrolled Airport Horror Story" thread comming on...

Just to get it started, I'll add two to the pot...

Flying for a dink commuter out of East Butthole, Nebraska. Airport has a number of long runways, and an old closed runway that runs infront of the terminal ramp that is now a taxiway, and has been for years. We're taxiing out at o'dark thirty. CTAF is completely silent.

We're getting ready to pull out off the terminal ramp onto the taxiway when I get this creepy feeling...I look out AND up to see a Baron that had just departed the taxiway. I jam on the brakes, everyone in the back does a head thump, and this guy just toodles off into the sunrise without saying a word.

Moral of the story? Airplanes can come at from where you least expect them.

Story number two. Working for a dink flight school in in the South. Nice little uncontrolled field, and the FBO/school is the only thing going on.

The runway crowns a hill, so that you can't see one end of the runway from the other.

We're on final in the PA-44, with a number of other AC in the pattern. Transient in a Baron (seeing a pattern here?) pulls out into position as we pass over the numbers. Student lands, and just after we touch down Baron dude transmits he's rolling. I tell him to just hold on a bit (in a nice way), as we are still on the runway. We pass over the crown and slow to turn left off the runway...another creepy feeling...I look over past my student to see a Baron cresting the hill. It took a little extra power, but we get out of this guys way.

Moral of the story: Some people are just tools (yours truley included<G>).

When most (9 out 10) people goof at an uncontrolled field, they feel worse about it that you do, and brerating them in person or on the radio isn't really going to help. If it was particularly egregious, a little friendly chat about "the local deal" is usually more than enough over a soda or cup of coffee, and you'd probably earn a new buddy.

The 10th person will be a complete anti-authority, I'm always right tool that will probably either yell at you, tell you it was your fault or threaten you with physical violence. Yelling at them doesn't do any good either.

In short, yelling at anyone never does any good...

Let's hear your stories!

Nu

 

[siucavflight]

How about this? A non-towered airport has two runways, a 18-36 and a 9-27. Wx is 700 OVC & 2 on the visibility. You're making the ILS-LOC approach to Rwy 36 which has a NOTAM that it is a closed runway today for construction. Standard traffic to all runways. Wind is 090/15 so it's runway 9 for the planned circle to land. The question is can the pilot make right traffic and land runway 9 or does he have to come all the way over the field to make a left turn to runway 9? What would you do? What are the rules?

I think he has to come over the field and enter left traffic for runway 9. Can anybody show me contrary to any rules or AC on this subject?

What do you think?

Wow, you really filled out your profile.

 

[81Horse]

I think he has to come over the field and enter left traffic for runway 9. Can anybody show me contrary to any rules or AC on this subject?

Well, yah -- left traffic. Who likes circle-to-land right traffic anyway?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

OK. So lets try something a little different on another day when the wind changes to let's say 270/15 at the same airport with the same situation, ILS-LOC approaoch to Runway 36, circle to runway 27. This time you see the field a little late and you're in too close to enter a left downwind. Can you come over the field and enter a right down wind to 27?

I think not. What do you all think?

 

[81Horse]

OK. So lets try something a little different on another day when the wind changes to lets say 270/15 ...

There's a guy like you in every ground school.

I still agree with you, though.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

We need Avbug's thoughts on this.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Uncontrolled fields....one thought: make sure you do your transmitting in the blind!!!! So many weekend flyers hop in their Bonanzas and jaunt off to some small airport, not bothering to report. Its an accident waiting to happen.

Visualize a runway on your living room floor and stick your arms out (make sure you are alone), then fly the pattern, practicing what to say at each leg (N...is abeam the numbers....N.....is on left downwind for 25...). Sounds silly, but it works. Also a good idea to do this and practice what should go on in the cockpit, (example, abeam the numbers, Carb Heat On, Throttle 1500, Flaps one notch)

 

[avbug]

How about this? A non-towered airport has two runways, a 18-36 and a 9-27. Wx is 700 OVC & 2 on the visibility. You're making the ILS-LOC approach to Rwy 36 which has a NOTAM that it is a closed runway today for construction. Standard traffic to all runways. Wind is 090/15 so it's runway 9 for the planned circle to land. The question is can the pilot make right traffic and land runway 9 or does he have to come all the way over the field to make a left turn to runway 9? What would you do? What are the rules?

I think he has to come over the field and enter left traffic for runway 9. Can anybody show me contrary to any rules or AC on this subject?

Barring any proceedural note to the contrary, you are legal and correct to maneuver any way you like to land on the runway to which you're circling...so long as as you remain within the appropriate circling radius for the groundspeed at which you're circling.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Barring any proceedural note to the contrary, you are legal and correct to maneuver any way you like to land on the runway to which you're circling...so long as as you remain within the appropriate circling radius for the groundspeed at which you're circling.

Thanks for your reply Avbug. So I guess that what you are saying is that you can make left or right traffic to any runway under the stated conditions. I have never read that anywhere in the FAR's but it does make sense (and in reality that is probably what I would do). But can you provide a reference? I can only find that when landing at a Class E or a Class G airport, left traffic shall be made unless the airport has right traffic to a particular runway as would be indicated. I notice that that FAR doesn't say anything about IFR or VFR being any different. So I only see one FAR on this, and it says left traffic.

Anyway, if you are right and I’m not ready to say you are, just for fun, lets change the scenario. Let’s say the Wx is going up to 900 & 3 and then 1000 & 3 and as the Wx improves surely VFR training flights will begin to operate in the pattern. When does the pilot making this approach have to change from your position of maneuvering anywhere you need to, to the left traffic rule?

I will anxiously await your answer.

 

[DC4boy]

What's truly amazing here is that bright, knowing, intelligent "real" pilots managed to screw it up without a crop duster in the pattern to blame. Go figurure.

Priceless.....

 

[81Horse]

... surly VFR training flights will begin to operate in the pattern. ...

When the VFR trainers get surly, it's time to land and start drinking.

 

[MrPink1911]

IMHO, whether IFR or VFR all turns should be made to the left, unless right traffic is specified for that particular runway..... So, at MDA circling turns should be made to the left.....

 

[avbug]

f. Circling Minimums. In some busy terminal areas, ATC may not allow circling and circling minimums will not be published. Published circling minimums provide obstacle clearance when pilots remain within the appropriate area of protection. Pilots should remain at or above the circling altitude until the aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers. Circling may require maneuvers at low altitude, at low airspeed, and in marginal weather conditions. Pilots must use sound judgment, have an indepth knowledge of their capabilities, and fully understand the aircraft performance to determine the exact circling maneuver since weather, unique airport design, and the aircraft position, altitude, and airspeed must all be considered. The following basic rules apply:

1. Maneuver the shortest path to the base or downwind leg, as appropriate, considering existing weather conditions. There is no restriction from passing over the airport or other runways.

2. It should be recognized that circling maneuvers may be made while VFR or other flying is in progress at the airport. Standard left turns or specific instruction from the controller for maneuvering must be considered when circling to land.

3. At airports without a control tower, it may be desirable to fly over the airport to observe wind and turn indicators and other traffic which may be on the runway or flying in the vicinity of the airport.

CIRCLING APPROACH AREA RADII
Approach Category
Radius (Miles)
A 1.3

B 1.5

C 1.7

D 2.3

E 4.5

.....

 

[avbug]

FAA Order 7110.65P, Air Traffic Control:

4-8-6. CIRCLING APPROACH
a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft landing at airports with operational control towers.

b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the runway in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that aligned with the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of the circling maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required, state the direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left or right base/downwind leg as appropriate.

NOTE-
Where standard instrument approach procedures (SIAPs) authorize circling approaches, they provide a basic minimum of 300 feet of obstacle clearance at the MDA within the circling area considered. The dimensions of these areas, expressed in distances from the runways, vary for the different approach categories of aircraft. In some cases a SIAP may otherwise restrict circling approach maneuvers.

c. Do not issue clearances, such as "extend downwind leg," which might cause an aircraft to exceed the circling approach area distance from the runways within which required circling approach obstacle clearance is assured.