Total time/instrument ratio

[mattpilot]

Sorry, but i, and most others, disagree.

As you qouted from Part 61, "solely by reference to instruments UNDER actual or simulated instrument flight conditions".

I underlined the keyword for you. Actual conditions are either in clouds or when the visibility is less than 3 miles (unless your in G airspace, but thats an entirely different book). Simulated conditions is anything where you artificially limit your outside view (with foggles for example).

By your logic, i could be flying on a VFR flightplan and since i'm using instruments to maintain Airspeed & Altitude and using VOR's or a GPS to navigate, i could log it as IFR time.

WHen i went on my IFR checkride early this year, i went up in 800-2 weather conditions. The DPE still made me wear the hood because i had to be 100% on instrument on the entire flight.

So you think that if you file IFR you should not necessarily log most of that flight as Instrument?

Part 61-g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

I mean if you are VMC but on an IFR, then that pretty much falls into the category.

Does that mean if you have the auto pilot engaged while in the clouds you shouldn't log that time?

It is interesting how the CFRs only talk about "simulated" when talking about time for a qualification.

I looked at my time and it is about 15% of my TT. That is for over 12 years of aviation experience so I don't think I am out "fat logging" instrument time.

IMO, if you are on an IFR flt plan, flying GPS Direct, Victor Airways, or etc. and this is how you are navigating, then it is Instrument time.

 

[KiloBase]

Svfr

So if you are VFR on top or flying over water at night what would you call that? How do you know where your going? Instruments or Visual Reference?

sorry actually got the calculator out and it came out to be 12% of TT

 

[avpro91]

Generally it should be about 10% of your total time. When i got done flying night frieight in the northeast, it was actually about 12-15% but thats understandable I think. Since I have been flying charter for the past 2 years, it has gone back down to 10%now. So I guess it all depends on what you have been doing and you better have an explanation for it. i flew with a guy the other day that had like 1800 hrs and like 50 instrument. He had done all his flight training and instructing in Florida, and heck he'd never really seen ice either. So I guess it all depends on where you're coming from.

 

[habubuaza]

10 % of your total time, once your flying high performance jets for a living it's 5% of your total time.

 

[mattpilot]

So if you are VFR on top or flying over water at night what would you call that? How do you know where your going? Instruments or Visual Reference?

I'm going straight by the book which says either your in clouds (or low vis) or your under the hood with another pilot.

I can't give you a legal opinion on that - you ought to pose that question to the FAA. faa.gov has a question database thingie where you can ask questions and the FAA gives you their interpretation. Here it is: http://faa.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faa.cfg/php/enduser/entry.php (i would of looked, but i'm busy right now).

If you can't find the answer in there then ask the question yourself - let us know what you find out.

Btw, you are free to log whatever you want using your own interpretation. The only question remaining is will your potential future employer & the FAA recognize it on applications to meet minimums?

 

[mattpilot]

okay i lied.... i did look for something:


from the faa website - download this FAQ - 2mb: http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61faq.doc



There is no index, so you must use the search buttons. But here is a Legal opinion (therefore regulatory) from the faa regarding your logging of IFR time.

QUESTION: The question continues to surface among the flight instructors as to what is acceptable “vision restriction”. Some instructors are saying that no vision restriction is required if the instructor or examiner determines that no vision restriction is necessary even though the training is accomplished as “simulated instrument conditions”. The other condition is the use of a “ball cap” or “the agreement by the student that he will not look outside”, with the obvious question being, is either of these methods considered to be suitable “restriction to outside references”? I was told today that Flight Safety does not use any vision restriction device in Jets even though simulated instrument conditions are required by the PTS.



ANSWER: Ref: §§ 61.45(d)(2) and 61.51(g); FAA Order 8700.1, vol. 2, page 1-12; FAA Order 8400.10, vol. III, page 3‑270 and vol. V, page, 5-88; The only specific rule reference to what constitutes what is acceptable “vision restriction” is addressed in § 61.45(d)(2) [i.e., “(2) A device that prevents the applicant from having visual reference outside the aircraft, but does not prevent the examiner from having visual reference outside the aircraft, and is otherwise acceptable to the Administrator.]. Emphasis added “. . . A device that prevents the applicant from having visual reference outside the aircraft.” And per FAA Order 8700.1, vol. 2, page 1-12, paragraph 15.B. it states “During the practical test for an instrument rating or other ratings requiring a demonstration of instrument proficiency, the applicant must provide equipment, satisfactory to the inspector, which prevents flight by visual reference.”



Now in reference to your question/statement “. . . does not use any vision restriction device . . .” Per § 61.51(g)(1), it states “A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.” So, in order to log instrument flight time the pilot must be utilizing a view-limiting device. Except for when a pilot is operating an aircraft solely by reference to instruments in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC), how else could a pilot comply with § 61.51(g)(1) for logging instrument flight time [i.e., “. . . when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.”] unless the pilot was utilizing a view limiting device! So the answer is, in order to log instrument flight time for simulated instrument flight a person must be utilizing a view-limiting device. A promise by the applicant to not look outside the aircraft is not acceptable. And neither is the use of an ordinary ball cap, unless there is view limiting attachments to the bill of the cap that prevents the applicant from having visual reference outside the aircraft.



However, as per § 61.51(g)(2), an authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.



Per FAA Order 8400.10, vol. III, page 3‑270 and vol. V, page, 5-88 address the policy requirement for use of a view limiting device when training and evaluating a pilot to control an aircraft on instruments and to navigate without reference to outside cues under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135. And under FAA Order 8400.10, the policy requires the use of a view limiting device when performing “. . . training and evaluating a pilot to control an aircraft on instruments and to navigate without reference to outside cues.”

 

[habubuaza]

If you have no clue as to what the airplane is doing without referring to you flight instruments, then it's instrument flight time.

 

[TheDogsBollocks]

So you think that if you file IFR you should not necessarily log most of that flight as Instrument?

Part 61-g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

I mean if you are VMC but on an IFR, then that pretty much falls into the category.

Does that mean if you have the auto pilot engaged while in the clouds you shouldn't log that time?

It is interesting how the CFRs only talk about "simulated" when talking about time for a qualification.

I looked at my time and it is about 15% of my TT. That is for over 12 years of aviation experience so I don't think I am out "fat logging" instrument time.

IMO, if you are on an IFR flt plan, flying GPS Direct, Victor Airways, or etc. and this is how you are navigating, then it is Instrument time.

Sounds like the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time!

 

[Checks]

IMO, if you are on an IFR flt plan, flying GPS Direct, Victor Airways, or etc. and this is how you are navigating, then it is Instrument time.

Very wrong boss. Re-read the regs.

 

[The Av1ator]

Over the years I have come to consider 10% about average. But it does have a lot ot do the with the type of equipment you are flying and where.

Whe I was flying Captain for a commuter airline in the northeast there were many days that you takeoff get into the soup at 200 feet and not see the ground again till you were at decision height on the ILS.

Then, when I was flying freight in a Caravan in South Florida I can count on both hands the number of approaches I shot in a two year period flying 6 days a week with about 1000 hours flown almost every minute VFR.

Don't forget to log your instrument time from the simulator if you do recurrent training in one