Took My Discovery Flight Today!

[Goose Egg]

I was so passionate about flying and had so much fun with it that I decided to drop a high paying job working for a rapidly growing (stock wise too) company...

So far so good. There's nothing wrong with that. I dropped out of a major in college with a large potential for earnings (accounting) to go back to flying, and haven't looked back. One of the best decisions I ever made.

...took out a huge loan, and moved my life into flight training in hopes of doing it as a career. Welp, today, I'm in a huge debt, I don't have a flying job, can't get into it because I can't afford to (thanks to delays at the CAPT program and their incompentence), and have lost my passion for flying.

The "took out a huge loan" part is where you lost it. Another poster said it best, you are a poster child for CAPT, DCA, RAA, etc. etc. etc. I understand that you had a negative experience and that CAPT wasn't all it was cracked up to be, but don't figure for a minute that it is representative of the industry and that the rest of us are in the same boat. I went to state school, got a 4-year degree and all my ratings while accruing approximately $18k of debt. That translates into a monthly payment of about $130. I can manage that. I graduated with about 300 hours, and am now pushing 1000. I closed that gap through instructing. That's about 700 hours that I didn't pay a cent for.

So, I think a lot about what my CFI told me when I told him I wanted to do it as a career these days. Had I listened to him, I'd still be able to fly WHENEVER I wanted and ENJOYED my flights to KACK or KMVY or other destinations on the weekends and still have a bundle of cash.

I get to fly as much as I want, which is several times daily (weather permitting--I am in New England after all), and it doesn't cost me anything. Had I listened to someone like your instructor, I'd be stuck with about 100 hours and in a job that would probably pay well, but that I absolutely hated. No thanks.

What I've learned from my experience is that flight training outfits is just another money making engine. The people that run it don't care (at least not at CAPT).

Not all flight training outfits. Mine was a non-profit organization (a state run college.)

And most of all, one has to have a TON of cash on hand to sit around to wait for some regional airline to call you...

You won't be waiting long if you are qualified and flexible for who you want to work for. I've been an instructor long enough to see my fellow instructors fly out the door.

so that you can work for $19 an hour for that first year, and then make a morsel more each year while praying that the airline doesn't go out of business or cut your pay scale.

So did you really buy into all that CAPT propaganda? No one goes straight to the majors. Everyone has to "get around the block" somehow. There's a huge difference between merely having the rating and having several hundred (or thousand) hours of experience to go with it. Did you think that you could circumvent that process with the big buy-in from the training program you chose? It just doesn't work like that. Did you really want to fly for a living or did you just want the so-called glory and prestige of the big iron?

Oh, and the time away from friends and family.

That's true, you will spend some time away, but did you not know this before getting into it? Please tell me that this didn't catch you unaware.

So, to answer your question, what should you do? Do something that makes money that affords you the privilege to fly on your terms and enjoy the flying.

Done. I fly on my terms, which is several times per day. I am afforded that priviledge through flight instructing. And it makes money--not a considerable amount, but it's enough for now. I'm not living in the "lap of luxury," but I never expected that (or wanted it for that matter.) All things considered, I really wouldn't want to be doing anything else right now.

I used to hate my job, but I also knew that every 2 weeks I got a paycheck that more than allowed me to fly a few hours on the weekends to wash away all that negative energy at the office.

With a job like that, I'd need to wash away the negative energy daily. How depressing it would be to have that be the focus of your life. Work in a crappy job all day, go home, and only have a few hours to relax before you get up and do it all over again. That would suck.

And if you read on the forums, there are pilots who have admitted that they lost the passion and that flying is just another job.

It's true, flying is work, flying is a job. But it's a job that I really like, and I think you'll find plenty of pilots on this forums who feel similarly.

I might get into flying for a major airline and have a relatively stable career at a good pay.

Who said the only way to a relatively stable career and "good pay" was through a major airline? I'm not planning on flying for a major, and I don't feel like I need to to have a successful career.

-Goose

 

[wrxpilot]

Awesome post Goose!

 

[Flying Ninja]

I think your situation differs from mine a great deal considering you started getting into the aviation industry at an early age and obviously someone mentored you in the ways of the aviation industry and what to expect. I got into aviation when I was 31. Got into CAPT at the age of 32. I was not looking for a short cut into the majors because I didn't want to do the hard work. I was strapped for money, and I knew I was putting everything I have on the table to try to fulfill a dream. CAPT sold me that I was going to be able to get to the regionals and even the majors. They sold me a minimum time with a type rating and a path to guaranteed interviews which they made it sound like you got the job if you graduate their "elite training" program. If I was like you and had the means and the opportunity, I'd probably be doing what you're doing today rather than facing the reality that the dream is over.

By training outfits, I don't mean the local FBO with the local CFIs. I mean corporate outfits with the glossy magazine ads. So yes, I bought into CAPT's propaganda. I was very skepticle about CAPT from the very beginning. Everyone I talked to thought I was crazy for doing it. But they did offer a very attractive and fast track into flying for the airlines. And with that age 60 rule and my starting age, I wanted every advantage to beat the clock because I knew you start out making crap. Someone at CAPT told me it was possible for me to graduate, work for a regional for 5 years and get into a major airline. I knew I was going to be away from home. I just didn't realize when they said you'll be "working half the time" didn't exactly translate to working 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off.

Yes, the desk job sucks. But I don't have a choice anymore. I ran out of time and money to get into this industry. By the time I dig myself out of debt and get recurrent and build up the time to get into a regional airline to make $20k for that first year at the age of 45, I would have been able to make a lot more doing what I'm doing now and be able to fly on the side for enjoyment.

So anyway, you are in a different place than I.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ninja

You are way too negative. Things are never that bad. If you love aviation enough, you'll find away. I sure did and it took a few years before I got all my certificates. Yeah, I spent a ton of money but no one can take an education away from you. Cars get old, electronics fail and become obsolete, expensive meals, well, they 're not around for very long either.

It shouldn't take much more cash to get the CFI, from there you are on the road to building hours and getting a job. Once you have the CFI you can fly for free for the rest of your life, even if you choose not to fly for an airline. It's something that could be done on weekends. It's mostly book knowledge and once you begin teaching,the job gets easier and your skills improve dramatically. There's nothing like an early morning takeoff into the cool air with a student looking towards bright blue skies and a sunrise.

 

[Flying Ninja]

I'm sure I come across as being negative. Sure, the education they can't take away from you. But since you're a CFI, you know how quickly these skills fade if you don't use it. I'm quite certain that's why the FAA imposes those currency regulations. Otherwise, why bother with those regs? To that end, let me just tell you that I can't afford to fly anymore far less pay for instruction to get a CFI. I looked around here for a CFI program and it'll cost about $5000. I simply don't have that money. Hell, I'd be happy to see that number pop up on my bank statements these days. My monthly loan payment is $1000; and the interest rate is going up by 0.5% for a whopping 8.5% on $101K. Still doing the math? You figure out the rest and tell me how much money I need to make each month.

You don't have to remind me of the excitment of flying. I know. I got a useless plastic card mailed to me from the FAA to remind me. If you feel like flying that C-150 up to NY and give me some free lessons, I'd be happy to take you up on it on the weekends. I don't mean that seriously, just trying to make a point. Fact is, flying takes money and I don't have it.

It won't be until I get this loan paid off and saved enough money to buy a house and be financially stable before I go back to flying again. All my currencies have expired and they'll remain expired until I have money...which, is about 10-15 years from now. I'll be 45-50 then. At that point, flying as a career simply isn't worth it in my mind.

 

[Flying Ninja]

I'm sure I come across as being negative. Sure, the education they can't take away from you. But since you're a CFI, you know how quickly these skills fade if you don't use it. I'm quite certain that's why the FAA imposes those currency regulations. Otherwise, why bother with those regs? To that end, let me just tell you that I can't afford to fly anymore far less pay for instruction to get a CFI. I looked around here for a CFI program and it'll cost about $5000. I simply don't have that money. Hell, I'd be happy to see that number pop up on my bank statements these days. My monthly loan payment is $1000; and the interest rate is going up by 0.5% for a whopping 8.5% on $101K. Still doing the math? You figure out the rest and tell me how much money I need to make each month.

You don't have to remind me of the excitment of flying. I know. I got a useless plastic card mailed to me from the FAA to remind me. If you feel like flying that C-150 up to NY and give me some free lessons, I'd be happy to take you up on it on the weekends. I don't mean that seriously, just trying to make a point. Fact is, flying takes money and I don't have it.

It won't be until I get this loan paid off and saved enough money to buy a house and be financially stable before I go back to flying again. All my currencies have expired and they'll remain expired until I have money...which, is about 10-15 years from now. I'll be 45-50 then. At that point, flying as a career simply isn't worth it in my mind.

 

[777-2H4]

Ninja, I'm another one that is starting late. Except I'm 10 years older than when you started! I don't have much useful time left. And, I also don't have any family members that encourage me - in other words, I'm getting negative vibes to the idea of me flying. That saddens me.

Another possible outlet for my passion for aviation is to learn to fly up thru the CFI stage, and start my own aerial photography business. I could keep my regular job and do photo shoots on the side, AND, do flight instruction on the side as well. This way, I wouldn't become a full time pilot. I don't know - my head is full of emotions right now. I wonder how lucrative, or how great the need is for aerial photography.

 

[wrxpilot]

777-2H4,

There's plenty of people that got into aviation at a later age. Quite a few considerably older than 41, which really isn't that old anyway. I totally agree that if you want something bad enough, it will happen. Assuming you are in the US, anything's possible! Good luck and it was great hearing about your disco flight!!

 

[Goose Egg]

I got into aviation when I was 31. Got into CAPT at the age of 32.

It's true that I did get an earlier start than you, but I'm certainly not the youngest CFI around here. I turn 30 in two months. And I really didn't get much guidance, I just sought the course of action that was the best fit for my situation.

-Goose

P.S. Anyone who quotes $5000 for a CFI is either severely misinformed or trying to rip you off.

 

[flybuddy1]

Go to a grass strip and get aquainted with a taildragger Before you get hooked on 172s

 

[Flying Ninja]

777-2H4,

I don't mean to discourage you from pursuing your dreams. I just think people need to get realistic about it rather than get all dreamy eyed about the prospect of flying as a career because it's not all peaches and creams getting there. I don't consider having $0 in my bank account and starting out with aviation to make $18-20K for that first year and between $25-38K for the subsequent 4 years) I don't think that's acceptable to me between the age of 45-50. It would be acceptable had I gotten into this industry after graduation since by that age, with lots of luck, I'd probably be flying left seat making what I make today. So looking at the timeline and the financial situation, it makes no sense to do it anymore, especially when I don't have a lot of money in a retirement fund. At this point in my life, it's about making money to pay the debt so that I can make money to buy a house and save for retirement. I can't afford to take such a risk to make crap, drag out this debt to it's full 15 year term, and find myself with no money. And that's an ideal situation too.

Your situation may be different. You may have money to toss around and live off of on a low salary for your first 5 years at a regional. I don't know. So if you got the money then I say go for your dreams! It's a numbers game to me now. How much I owe, how much I make, and how much time I have to make it. Until I win the lotto, my days of flying for a living are over. But like they say in the NY Lotto, "All you need is a dream and a dollar." Except, my dollar goes to my lender. Good times.

So don't get discouraged from reading my posts. I encourage people to go for their dreams and pursue it if they have the resources to do so. But if you think money is going to be an issue, then I would seriously think about alternatives and pursue flying for fun. As it stands, I spent a LOT of money for nothing. I will never use my Commercial certification. Hell, I can't even use my Private certification because I'm so poor. So all those ratings and certification = vacation of a lifetime. That's what I paid for. I joke with my friends that I basically took all my vacation in one sitting. It was a lot of fun but at the end of the day, all I got was a big debt.

Goose Egg,

Happy birthday (early)! Now add 4 more years to your age, strip yourself of your CFI, imagine having no money in your bank account, with $101K debt at 8.5% interest rate (variable) and $1000/month (variable to interest rate) payment for the next 15 years. Now, tell me how you're going to get that CFI to make money. I can't even spare to get my IFR currency that expired. The last time I flew was the first week of January this year. So even if that CFI is $1000, I can't afford it. It's a whole month's worth of payments. Even if I happen to get my CFI, I won't be able to make enough money to make payments and live. Believe me. I've already looked at all this. Bottom line, I need to win the lotto. Everything else is just empty optimism.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

If it took you $100K to get an ME Commercial, then you need to get your head checked. How it cost you that much is beyond my comprehension. One could easily have done it for FAR LESS including a CFI. In fact $50,000 would have yielding all those ratings.

You come off as real bitter, especially towards soemone who is looking for advice to pursue his dream.

To the original poster, you're not too old, and if you wanted to, you could be a CFI in 1 years time. Just commit yourself to it. I assure you, its very feasible and for a lot less than 100K. If it takes you several years to get all the certficates, so be it. I had to wait until I had enough money each time I wanted the next rating.

 

[Flying Ninja]

If it took you $100K to get an ME Commercial, then you need to get your head checked.

It's not just pure training cost. It was also cost of living. It could have cost me a lot less but the bullsh!t lies and delays took a real hit on my wallet. You're not making any income when you're in one of these programs. At least not in the CAPT program where your schedule is unnecessarily unpredictable because they can't get their scheduling act together. Try stay income free for 19 months. We'll see how bitter you become when you graduate and the program doesn't help you get a job and leave you in the streets w/o a CFI to boot.

And I didn't tell him not to do it. I just told him to watch out because this crap isn't cheap. And hopefully, he knows not to buy into a program like I did. It's as simple as that. I know NOW that it's feasible to do so for a lot less by going to a local school rather than pack my life up, move to FL, and take a chance with a new training company that Riddle dropped and most likely will be sunk unless they get picked up by CAE (rumor has it). And your "a few years then so be it" works great when you're in your early 20's and just starting out. When you're looking into the future and the future translates to no money in the bank, you start thinking if this crap is really worth getting yourself into when basic needs like eating and warm shelter come first. That doesn't come free in case you're blessed with the Bank of Mom and Dad or some trust fund. The rest of us have to work to pay for that stuff.

So don't tell me to get my head checked. You may want to try and understand where I'm coming from rather than making hasty generalizations. Good day.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Dude, I think that all is not lost for you. You need to develop a more positive attitude. These loans can be initially defered, and then consolidated with smaller payments and the interest written off on your tax returns entirely - especially if you're not making very much money.

In your spare time, study up on all the book stuff, pass the written exams and fly your PC sim. It may sound dorky, but it will help with the procedures. Make some friends at the airport or just ride along on flights where you may get some stick time. Once you've sewn all this up, you'll need a feeww hours of performing the maneuvers from the right seat, and then checkride. I ASSURE YOU THAT this will only cost maybe $3000. Save this money up while working and studying. You may even find a CFI who will be willing to give you the signoff and dual for free in exchange for the hours if you pay for the flights. You need a plan and one that you promise yourself you will stick to. The harder it is the get where you want to be, the more you will savor fruition.

I understand you're in a lot of debt, but its not the end of the world. If you still do have the desire to fly professionally, it's very within your means. Try to adopt a move optomistic attitude. Thats a start. Everyone is burnt from one thing or another in life, you just have to move on. By the way, I started flying at 25 and didnt get my CFI stuff until I was 30 working lame office jobs. There was a lot of down time between flying due to a lack of money before I got this far. And my parents didn't give me one cent to fly airplanes.

Anyway, if you want to, its in you.

good luck.

 

[Goose Egg]

Dude, I think that all is not lost for you. You need to develop a more positive attitude... In your spare time, study up on all the book stuff, pass the written exams and fly your PC sim.... Once you've sewn all this up, you'll need a feeww hours of performing the maneuvers from the right seat, and then checkride... I ASSURE YOU THAT this will only cost maybe $3000. Save this money up while working and studying. You may even find a CFI who will be willing to give you the signoff and dual for free in exchange for the hours if you pay for the flights... You need a plan and one that you promise yourself you will stick to. The harder it is the get where you want to be, the more you will savor fruition... I understand you're in a lot of debt, but its not the end of the world. If you still do have the desire to fly professionally, it's very within your means. Try to adopt a move optomistic attitude...Thats a start. Everyone is burnt from one thing or another in life, you just have to move on. By the way, I started flying at 25 and didnt get my CFI stuff until I was 30 working lame office jobs. There was a lot of down time between flying due to a lack of money before I got this far. And my parents didn't give me one cent to fly airplanes.

Excellent advice from Amish RakeFight. I have been remarking to myself about how within your reach it could be, and it seems so wasteful to me to have spent all that time and effort and have it not be used. I mean, you already have 100 multi, so that's something very much in your favor. There are airlines out there that will hire you with 100-200 more hours (ASA, for example--current mins are 600-1.) You probably wouldn't be instructing for long. And with that MD-80 type already under your belt, I'm sure training for the CRJ/ERJ/Whatever wouldn't be an issue for you at all. You've got a lot going for you, Ninja. Git'r'done!

-Goose

P.S. I got my initial CFI when I was 26, but I didn't have an instructing job until a year and a half later until I had just turned 28. In the mean time, developed photos at CVS. I bet that sucks worse than your office job. Probably pays less too.