Too much fuel?

[Fltlvls]

That's not a corner. There's nowhere in the 48 states that you can't get to another runway on reserve fuel. You don't HAVE to land at an airport that your airline serves, or any airline serves for that matter.

If you land at an airport that is not approved in your OPs Specs, expect to do a carpet dance in front of the feds and your company.Don't forget that you will need performance data to get your brilliant decision making out of there.

 

[ron burgundy]

It costs $$ to carry extra gas just bc so many of us are scared of our judgement and want a security blanket

How is your management plan working out for ya? Yes, when the company/dispatch is trying to "short sheet" the bed........I want my ..banky (security blanket).

 

[embpic1]

"Reserve fuel should not be touched," he said. "It is there for reserve."

Huh?

This is absolutely correct! Reserve gas belongs to me. I always plan to land with at least reserve fuel. If something unforeseen happens (go around due to ac on runway etc.) reserve fuel should keep those fans turning for another approach.

Back in my commuter days I had a flight where I could only take enough gas for one approach at the destination and then would have to immediately proceed to my alternate. After executing the approach and going missed I proceeded to the alternate (DEN). Dispatch called right away and wanted me to try again. That would have used most of my reserve fuel. I kindly told them no and proceeded to DEN.

Again, reserve fuel is there to keep you flying when something beyond your control keeps you in the air. Making the decision to hold or shoot another approach before proceeding to your alternate is something that you control.

 

[Hamburger]

That's not a corner. There's nowhere in the 48 states that you can't get to another runway on reserve fuel. You don't HAVE to land at an airport that your airline serves, or any airline serves for that matter.

True. If you assume you're not in a 1900 or brasilia........

Now you're at some strip you don't have numbers for because it's not in your ops specs (remember that emergency authority only works on the way in) and they don't have a terminal, security, a reserve crew, fuel, or facilities.

You may not be dead, but you don't get to just go to the hotel....

 

[COpilot]

I don't get it. My company instituted this three years ago. I pretty much order flight plan fuel every time. If I make my redispatch fine, if I make my destination fine. If things look bad I divert. Not my problem. I've diverted twice due to bad enroute wx forcing a longer route. I thought it would be a huge hassle, CP just shrugged it off. He said the bean counters analyzed that there was an acceptable number of diversions per year that were far over weighed by the savings. My policy is to make darn sure the regs are complied with and operate the a/c safely and prudently. Not my job to save or make money for my company. This isn't the military where someones life may depend on you completing your mission.

I agree; all our FMSs are about the same, load the flight plan RES on the INIT REF page, when unable fuel prompt comes up, your "bingo" right?

That's by the book?

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Someone touched on the issue. We are in Section 6 at AA, the company basically tells us to Foxtrot-Oscar on everthing that costs them 1 penny more, and will even spend money if it inconvienences the pilot group.

With our contract, the Captain who accepts AA's lowball 4200 arrival fuel in a B737 into MIA in the summer, on the first leg of a 4-day trip, risks taking a 25% paycut for the month if a popcorn storm pops up and cause him to misconnect and lose the rest of his sequence after a diversion to RSW for fuel.

P.S. And another note for Ralgha, although Varadero Beach Cuba is 30 minutes away, it isn't a suitable alternate.

 

[clr4theapch]

Good conversations here.. just wondering, I have only seen the word dispatch used once in this thread.. I'm curious as a dispatcher, surely you and your dispatcher knows the Wx situation before you get to the dist.. Like MIA.. we all know the pop-ups area daily event anywhere in Florida.. I as a dispatcher will always provide extra fuel even if a alt was not required based on the release time.. but do so based on the prob..

In these min fuel flight you guys talk about here are you guys talking with your dispatcher, is he/she talking with you? well in advance of a possible fuel issue? I know many don't trust their dispatchers due to the perceived mgmt pressure to save $$ but most dispatchers I know of will provide the same analysis I do and just add extra right before the release is generated.. afterall we don't want to be called on the carpet if you guys get into a jamb.. and we could have or should have been more proactive..

As to the inflight situation, the dispatchers shold be consulted way in advance to best determine the alternate for a "just-in-case" situation as described ( Mooney gears up), and you're on a non-alt required flight with minimum planned fuel.. we have the resources to decide whos open, serves the company, customs or what ever so "IF" you got to go somewhere with bingo fuel the situation has already been studied and we (dispatch) has given you some optional airports within range and servicing ability..

Just saying.. use your resources to the Max..

 

[C-150ETOPS]

AA is taking the Dispatchers out of the loop by threating them with letters in their files and "discussions" about their performance regarding fuel loads. they are "friendly" discussions of course in no way to interfere with the Pilot/Dispatch relationship. A few pilots have started to the results of the toxic relationship rear it's head in flight planning.

The letter just so happened to appear after the appointment of a new S.O.C. head at AA (Chief of daily operations, crew schedule, dispatch)

He was lauded by Corporate for all his experience in operations and customer service.............................at American Eagle, which was dead last in every category ranking during his tenure there.

It's kinda like Exxon hiring the BP Drill Supervisor of the Deepwater Horizon to run their entire worldwide drilling operation.

 

[clr4theapch]

I understand trying to be as careful as possible with company money.. but the last time I looked at the regs... the FAA give the dispatcher a license based on the ATP knowledge test and an 8 hour oral exam to determine the basic judgement of the person.. further it give the dispatcher( that has been fully trained by and released to work by the airlines ops spec) full authority to use that judgment.. for me end of story...

When I dispatched, I worked very hard to be apart of the crews mind set and the way they think, not the way some bean counter thinks.. having been at the pointy end of the can in a former life, I understand the concerns, the worry, the temptations.. but more the judgement that my feathered friends must use at a moments notice... I just try to "anticipate" what my flights might "really" expect to see when they get there.. not some generalized bs produced my an accountant or forcasted weather as if it were a Metar reading 10 minutes ago.. doing so just makes for a tense situation that need not be that way..

I guess that is why I kind of liked the suppl 121 regs that required an alternate and the required fuel on every flight release.. this was never an issue there..

In the flip side.. if I am doing my job (and assuming I have the time and not pushing 80 releases a shift) I like to keep up with the notams and weather during flight following.. so I can see potiential problems.. hopefully in the real world, the soc managers or ATC desk will be on top of the day flights and let the dispatcher know if an airport is going down due to an incident that might affect my flights already in route..

I wish you guys luck and safety...

 

[waveflyer]

How is your management plan working out for ya? Yes, when the company/dispatch is trying to "short sheet" the bed........I want my ..banky (security blanket).

Great. Thx for asking- It finally took a dispatcher to bring the word judgement into play- we have licenses and go through checkrides for a reason- you should have the judgement to fuel plan as efficiently as possible- The bottom line is there are many pilots who won't go without a 'banky' and it's just b/c they are lazy and don't want to think at work. Or scared of their own shadow. There are scenarios where i want what i want and i'll explain myself if need- but i've thought it through and have a reason. I don't let that get in the way of my judgement or make blanket rules designed for me never have to work at work.

Oh - i just realized- not my job for a while anymore...

carry on- ya'll do what you want! I'll back you up and make sure we're legal and don't crash.

 

[waveflyer]

But that said- carpet dances don't EVER enter into my mind at work. Ever.

 

[j41driver]

And don't sweat it - when you get that EFC and hold time from ATC and it is one minute into your reserve - just divert to your filed alternate as flight planned. Then you have exercsied proper judgement and stayed legal with no hassle.

Hopefully you're not staying in the hold until you're already into your reserve. I wouldn't say that exercises proper judgement or is legal.

 

[Metrojet]

Hopefully you're not staying in the hold until you're already into your reserve. I wouldn't say that exercises proper judgment or is legal.

j41 -

You are correct - I should have been more clear - plan to depart the hold no later than or with FOB required to alternate plus approach plus reserve would be the correct actions and good judgment.

Is that more accurate?

Metrojet
p.s. - of course leaving the hold with a little extra for the wife and kids also works!

 

[Ralgha]

If you land at an airport that is not approved in your OPs Specs, expect to do a carpet dance in front of the feds and your company.Don't forget that you will need performance data to get your brilliant decision making out of there.

Wait, you're saying you won't declare an emergency when you're running out of fuel?

If it was a choice between running out of fuel, and landing somewhere that you didn't have numbers to take off again, you'd run out of fuel? Brilliant! Personally, I don't care about leaving again, I care about landing safely.

True. If you assume you're not in a 1900 or brasilia........

Now you're at some strip you don't have numbers for because it's not in your ops specs (remember that emergency authority only works on the way in) and they don't have a terminal, security, a reserve crew, fuel, or facilities.

You may not be dead, but you don't get to just go to the hotel....

Again, I don't care about leaving. Why does this even enter your mind?

You guys act like I've never done this kind of divert before.

 

[RJ Bum]

Wait, you're saying you won't declare an emergency when you're running out of fuel?

If it was a choice between running out of fuel, and landing somewhere that you didn't have numbers to take off again, you'd run out of fuel? Brilliant! Personally, I don't care about leaving again, I care about landing safely.



Again, I don't care about leaving. Why does this even enter your mind?

You guys act like I've never done this kind of divert before.

Emergency when there is NO other option, of course. A "planned" divert, then I hope you're thinking further ahead than that. If your not thinking about having no numbers to get out, pax care, fire rescue, fuel, etc then you're asking for it. I hope you have a blank NASA report and resume ready...