Today's Update from NJA

[brokeflyer]

Not concerned about the dues even though I'm not real happy about paying for something I never wanted. Losing my aircraft/seat: Something was pointed out to me today that might make this a concern if it is true. I was told that if there is a furlough to either our FOs or Captains if they are recalled they will only be allowed to go back to whatever aircraft their seniority number will hold--they will probably be displaced from the Gulfstream fleet. Is that true? Isn't that a contradiction to the LOA? I really don't know for sure. No, I'm not worried about my pay going down. I am somewhat concerned about QOL on the road with the adoption of per diem and the accepted policy at NJA of sitting stand-by at the FBO. Yes I am also concerned about management--we are already seeing changes in our management and some of this is due to the looming of the integration--honestly, they are wary of the union and it is effecting the personal way that they did use to make decisions The individual, personal, family atmosphere and touch is going away. No offense taken and none meant in return. You asked about the term union scaring me--no but what does concern me is what I have seen unions do to companies in the past. You say that yours isn't the historical bullying union that demands the impossible, but honestly with absolutely no offense meant, most of us on this side feel like your union bullied their way into NJI. Management didn't voluntarily open the door and neither did the NJI pilots. There is a movie from several years ago called a bridge too far---when it comes to your need for better pay and work rules most NJI pilot I know supported you guys but I for one feel you went a bridge too far when you kept pushing for inclusion into NJI. We didn't push to have the BBJs put under NJI why couldn't that consideration have been reciprocated. I know I will hear about the scope but really what would it have hurt to just leave us alone? That is really all we wanted. What kind of damage would it have done to your pay or work rules? I always get back to the fact that you needed a union, we didn't. We were treated fairly and had a very good thing going and honestly it has already suffered.

no one is forcing you to do anything....there are plenty of non-union carrier out there that would love to screw over an experienced pilot like yourself. As for the rest, my job security and the welfare of mine and many other families takes precedence over whatever you feel you are entiltled to. Sorry but that is the way it is.

It sint you or anything pilots fault that we need intergration. Without it, we have 2 seperate carriers under the same company. Ive said before that it isnt fair, and probly not legal to lay off the evil NJA union pilots while the law abiding NJI guys fly the trips. AINT GONNA HAPPEN. That is why this is going to proceed. You WILL be better off for it. Back in 1968 my first airline talked about unionizing. I voted it down but was glad it passed after the fact. I didnt create this union, I dont really like having a union. But, until management stops it's bullsh1t, we're gonna have a union. I dont have anyone to blame besides management and neither do you.

But, monday is my last day anyway so I guess I dont really care what you do. But think of the next generation of pilots.

 

[harley30344]

no one is forcing you to do anything....there are plenty of non-union carrier out there that would love to screw over an experienced pilot like yourself. As for the rest, my job security and the welfare of mine and many other families takes precedence over whatever you feel you are entiltled to.I don't feel I am entitled to anything-I've worked hard at one job or another since I was 14. Sorry but that is the way it is.

It sint you or anything pilots fault that we need intergration. Without it, we have 2 seperate carriers under the same company. Ive said before that it isnt fair, and probly not legal to lay off the evil NJA union pilots while the law abiding NJI guys fly the trips. AINT GONNA HAPPEN. That is why this is going to proceed. You WILL be better off for it. Back in 1968 my first airline talked about unionizing. I voted it down but was glad it passed after the fact. I didnt create this union, I dont really like having a union. But, until management stops it's bullsh1t, we're gonna have a union. I dont have anyone to blame besides management and neither do you. I have to disagree here--NJI management was good and treated their people well--they didn't freely open the door for the union. We got very little BS from our management.

But, monday is my last day anyway so I guess I dont really care what you do. But think of the next generation of pilots.

Good luck to you in your future endeavors.

 

[brokeflyer]

Good luck to you in your future endeavors.

thanks you too....

 

[illinipilot]

Harley,

The main issue for me, the desire for NJI and NJA to integrate, stems from the manner in which NJI came into existance; as a way to usurp the union and have non-union pilots flying the Gulfstreams. If NetJets is able to do that once, what is to stop them from acting in a similiar manner in the future? By insuring that the entire fleet is flown by a single seniority list, we are insuring that as long as airplanes are being delivered, we are delivering jobs to the entire NetJets pilot group (which now includes those of you on the "I" side as well).

IP

 

[harley30344]

Harley,

The main issue for me, the desire for NJI and NJA to integrate, stems from the manner in which NJI came into existance; as a way to usurp the union and have non-union pilots flying the Gulfstreams. If NetJets is able to do that once, what is to stop them from acting in a similiar manner in the future? By insuring that the entire fleet is flown by a single seniority list, we are insuring that as long as airplanes are being delivered, we are delivering jobs to the entire NetJets pilot group (which now includes those of you on the "I" side as well).

IP

I don't know all of the history on that issue so I'm not going to try to get into something that I'm not well versed on. But using your same logic: what would prevent RS or WB from starting another fractional operator right now under another name and using non-union crews?Your last sentance: we are delivering jobs to the entire NetJets pilot group (which now includes those of you on the "I" side as well). sends the same message that I get over and over from the union side. "including those of you on the I side"-- the message always seems to be---and look what we did for you! There seems to be a communication problem much as a conservative talking to a liberal, a republican talking to a democrat, an Ohio State fan talking to a Michigan fan---we just can't seem to actually communicate. My point is that I get the --look what we did for you syndrome a lot---but what my future union brothers just can't seem to comprehend is that we didn't want anything. Period. But I come back to my original question: what would prevent them from a NETJET spin-off that is non-union now? I don't see that your argument holds water--am I missing something?/COLOR]

 

[BeeDubya]

...I was told that if there is a furlough to either our FOs or Captains if they are recalled they will only be allowed to go back to whatever aircraft their seniority number will hold--they will probably be displaced from the Gulfstream fleet. Is that true? Isn't that a contradiction to the LOA? ...I am somewhat concerned about QOL on the road with the adoption of per diem and the accepted policy at NJA of sitting stand-by at the FBO. Yes I am also concerned about management--we are already seeing changes in our management and some of this is due to the looming of the integration--honestly, they are wary of the union and it is effecting the personal way that they did use to make decisions The individual, personal, family atmosphere and touch is going away. No offense taken and none meant in return. .... most of us on this side feel like your union bullied their way into NJI. Management didn't voluntarily open the door and neither did the NJI pilots. There is a movie from several years ago called a bridge too far---when it comes to your need for better pay and work rules most NJI pilot I know supported you guys but I for one feel you went a bridge too far when you kept pushing for inclusion into NJI. We didn't push to have the BBJs put under NJI why couldn't that consideration have been reciprocated. I know I will hear about the scope but really what would it have hurt to just leave us alone? That is really all we wanted. What kind of damage would it have done to your pay or work rules? ...

harley,

If there is a furlough/layoff, what happens to recalled pilots will depend on timing. The clearest answer is that if it occurs after the remittance of the "final integration notice" all pilots covered by the agreement will be treated the same way. Pilots returning from furlough will be placed in vacancies where they exist at that time. They all also have the same "indefinite" deferral rights. Many pilots would not return to the fleet they left. The LOA states that there will not be a system flush or removal of pilots. However, return from furlough would be covered under Section 5 of the basic agreement, made applicable to NJI pilots under Part B, Paragraph 4 of LOA 01-013.

Nothing in the LOA or CBA requires airport standby. NJA management has felt is was useful, for some reaon and the CBA allows it. If that changes at NJI, it will be a mangement decision, not a Union one.

I think there may be other factors, besides the Union coming, that may be affecting NJI management's behavior. NJI was kept artificially separate, for political reasons. With the integration, those rationale are gone. It seems logical that "higher-ups" may want to exert more control now. It may lesson the "family" feel. NJI management does not yet know how we work. I would guess that much of what they were allowed to do prior to integration, they will still be able to do, although the mechanism may be different.

The inclusion of NJI was integral to the other measures of our agreement. Without that piece, the other benefits gained were for naught. Yes, this is scope. The ability to have a sister non-Union company allows management to shift all flying and jobs to that other entity without taking the pilots along. That is to say, without strong scope inclusion, all the flying and jobs of the NJA pilots could be moved to NJI. It's takes a time and a little creativity to get there, but it's not beyond the imagination. The only way to ensure that the rest of the CBA had any meaning, was to close that scope loophole and secure all the flying under the CBA. Conversely, that creates a benefit for the NJI pilots. If, for some reason, Gulfstreams IV/Vs went away (pick your hypothetical), any replacement aircraft by CBA had to be flown by Union pilots. That would have left the NJI pilots without planes and the only possibilities for NetJets flying would be to be hired at the bottom of our list. After the final integration, if the IV/Vs go away, by CBA, the company has to "create" displacement vacancies for NJI pilots within remaining fleets. There would have been no similar benefit for NJI to push extract the NJLA (737) guys from the Union, where there was a huge security benefit to the NJA guys to secure the G-IV/V flying.

Yes, it really would have hurt to just "leave you alone." I do not believe you appreciate the level of threat to our jobs that we viewed the scope loophole to be. The damage, was it allowed a (cumbersome) mechanism for the company to eliminate our jobs completely, by replacement not downsizing. Once the integration is complete, all US fractional flying will be done by Union pilots, without the mechanism to shift the jobs elsewhere. You stated that the NJI pilots didn't voluntarilly open the door. Earlier you said that NJI pilots were willing to take their chances with management. The chance you took was that management opened the door to us.

Fraternally,
Brian

 

[fischman]

Not concerned about the dues even though I'm not real happy about paying for something I never wanted. Like I said before, 1 hour of OT will pay for that, so you aren't really losing anything. Losing my aircraft/seat: Something was pointed out to me today that might make this a concern if it is true. I was told that if there is a furlough to either our FOs or Captains if they are recalled they will only be allowed to go back to whatever aircraft their seniority number will hold My understand is that any furloughs will be done via the VSL. Sorry man. "It is what it is"--they will probably be displaced from the Gulfstream fleet. Is that true? Honestly, I don't know. Better let Brian field that one. Isn't that a contradiction to the LOA? I really don't know for sure. No, I'm not worried about my pay going down. I am somewhat concerned about QOL on the road with the adoption of per diem and the accepted policy at NJA of sitting stand-by at the FBO. Per diem is free money if you don't need it. If you don't want the free money, send it my way! . Yes I am also concerned about management--we are already seeing changes in our management and some of this is due to the looming of the integration--honestly, they are wary of the union and it is effecting the personal way that they did use to make decisions The individual, personal, family atmosphere and touch is going away. When I was referring to this, I was trying to communicate that you don't need to be scared of bullying management with NJASAP representation. No offense taken and none meant in return. You asked about the term union scaring me--no but what does concern me is what I have seen unions do to companies in the past. You say that yours isn't the historical bullying union that demands the impossible, but honestly with absolutely no offense meant, most of us on this side feel like your union bullied their way into NJI. Read below. Management didn't voluntarily open the door and neither did the NJI pilots. There is a movie from several years ago called a bridge too far---when it comes to your need for better pay and work rules most NJI pilot I know supported you guys but I for one feel you went a bridge too far when you kept pushing for inclusion into NJI. We didn't push to have the BBJs put under NJI why couldn't that consideration have been reciprocated. I know I will hear about the scope but really what would it have hurt to just leave us alone? That is really all we wanted. What kind of damage would it have done to your pay or work rules? PAy and work rules don't mean squat if you don't have a job. I always get back to the fact that you needed a union, we didn't. We were treated fairly and had a very good thing going and honestly it has already suffered.

Harley,

There was a very real scare and threat that RTS would try to pull off with NJI what Mesa did with Freedom, or Trans States with GoJets. We were worried RTS would scale back NJA and ramp up NJI. NJA was worried about our future, our jobs, and effencicy of NetJets. The solution that was devised was a way to have all NetJets employees keep their jobs. That is why NJI will be represented by NJASAP. Like it or not, it is happening.

Respectfully,

fischman.

 

[BeeDubya]

But using your same logic: what would prevent RS or WB from starting another fractional operator right now under another name and using non-union crews?... Period. But I come back to my original question: what would prevent them from a NETJET spin-off that is non-union now? I don't see that your argument holds water--am I missing something?/COLOR]

Nothing prevents anyone from staring new companies. But what you're missing is our scope languge of Section 1 requires that NetJets fractional flying be done by Union pilots, which includes operation by NetJets' affiliates. Also, there is a clause that states that the Company (or affliliate) will not create a new fractional company, unless Union pilots fly the planes. Additional Successor Transaction and Acquisition language provides more protection. Any connection between NJ and the new company would be suspect. I would envision lawsuits.

Fraternally,
Brian

 

[RNObased]

Not concerned about the dues even though I'm not real happy about paying for something I never wanted. Losing my aircraft/seat: Something was pointed out to me today that might make this a concern if it is true. I was told that if there is a furlough to either our FOs or Captains if they are recalled they will only be allowed to go back to whatever aircraft their seniority number will hold--they will probably be displaced from the Gulfstream fleet. .

So let me get this straight, you are worried about losing a seat on a jet that you won't have the senority to hold via the VSL. IF there was a furlough. Don't you think there would be bigger issues to be concerned about if that happened?? Hmmm...

If that happened is that the end of the world??

 

[harley30344]

harley,

If there is a furlough/layoff, what happens to recalled pilots will depend on timing. The clearest answer is that if it occurs after the remittance of the "final integration notice" all pilots covered by the agreement will be treated the same way. Pilots returning from furlough will be placed in vacancies where they exist at that time. They all also have the same "indefinite" deferral rights. Many pilots would not return to the fleet they left. The LOA states that there will not be a system flush or removal of pilots. However, return from furlough would be covered under Section 5 of the basic agreement, made applicable to NJI pilots under Part B, Paragraph 4 of LOA 01-013. So it would actually expedite the NJA take-over at NJI if there are furloughs?

Nothing in the LOA or CBA requires airport standby. NJA management has felt is was useful, for some reaon and the CBA allows it. If that changes at NJI, it will be a mangement decision, not a Union one.

I think there may be other factors, besides the Union coming, that may be affecting NJI management's behavior. This is just speculation on your part--do you have any facts with which to back it up? Just asking---NJI was kept artificially separate, for political reasons. With the integration, those rationale are gone. It seems logical that "higher-ups" may want to exert more control now. It may lesson the "family" feel. NJI management does not yet know how we work. I would guess that much of what they were allowed to do prior to integration, they will still be able to do, although the mechanism may be different.

The inclusion of NJI was integral to the other measures of our agreement. Without that piece, the other benefits gained were for naught. But isn't this true only if the company shifted flying from the NJA side to the NJI side? Did you have anything to make you think this was imminent? When the BBJs were brought on did they do this?Yes, this is scope. The ability to have a sister non-Union company allows management to shift all flying and jobs to that other entity without taking the pilots along. That is to say, without strong scope inclusion, all the flying and jobs of the NJA pilots could be moved to NJI. It's takes a time and a little creativity to get there, but it's not beyond the imagination. It was within the realms of possibility but not probability. The only way to ensure that the rest of the CBA had any meaning, was to close that scope loophole and secure all the flying under the CBA. Was this the legal interpretation?Conversely, that creates a benefit for the NJI pilots. Some feel it created fewer benefits than liabilities and those are clearly defined by union versus non-union affiliation. Hmmm Why is that?If, for some reason, Gulfstreams IV/Vs went away (pick your hypothetical), Brian--if for some reason frogs had wings---hypotheticals can go on all day.any replacement aircraft by CBA had to be flown by Union pilots. That would have left the NJI pilots without planes and the only possibilities for NetJets flying would be to be hired at the bottom of our list. After the final integration, if the IV/Vs go away, by CBA, the company has to "create" displacement vacancies for NJI pilots within remaining fleets. There would have been no similar benefit for NJI to push extract the NJLA (737) guys from the Union, where there was a huge security benefit to the NJA guys to secure the G-IV/V flying.

Yes, it really would have hurt to just "leave you alone." I do not believe you appreciate the level of threat to our jobs that we viewed the scope loophole to be. And I do not think you appreciate the threat many on the NJI perceive that you are to our jobs and future of NJI. The damage, was it allowed a (cumbersome) mechanism for the company to eliminate our jobs completely, by replacement not downsizing. Once the integration is complete, all US fractional flying will be done by Union pilots, are you saying there will be no non-union fractionals operating in the US?without the mechanism to shift the jobs elsewhere. You stated that the NJI pilots didn't voluntarilly open the door. Earlier you said that NJI pilots were willing to take their chances with management. The chance you took was that management opened the door to us. Your right--management did open the door but its not like their arm wasn't being twisted by the union----we are right back at the same dilemma -- you feel strongly that you are right and I feel just as strongly that I am. You have a justification or rationalization for all union actions and for each one I have a counter argument. This could go on indefinitely but would waste your time and mine. I think by now you know that you will never convince me that unionization is good for NJI and I will never convince you otherwise. I believe to the depths of my soul that NJI was fine without a union and the union forced their way into the door for their own gain--NJI pilots be damned. Maybe if you had started on this side of the fence you could see my side of the argument a little clearer.

Fraternally,
Brian

You will find my posts less frequently (I'm sure a few will welcome that) as I am starting to see this as a major waste of the time of many. All here seem to be just too set in their opinions--myself included..