Today's Update from NJA

[BeeDubya]

Most of those at NJI liked things the way they were and had been made promises as well--even as lately as some of the last hires--they were told they would upgrade in 3-5 years and that the union in or out made no difference. I fly with those guys all the time--what about their professions, their families the expectations they were given when they hired into NJI? ... OK then one more question--what has the union given to the pilots at NJI that wasn't something that could appear self serving? Name me one time where they have reached out and said--"you know we don't get anything for this but it is the right thing to do for our future brothers. ... Please look at it from an unbiased perspective---what messages have been sent to the NJI pilots to this point--not in words but in actions?

I'm not sure I can be completely unbiased, although I'll try. I'll ask you to do the same. Remember, I am an NJA pilot and Union representative and I have been involved in the NJA Union for a number of years, including our negotiations of 2005. To completely shed those from my viewpoint is difficult if not impossible.

As far as promises made by management even prior to the "recognition notice," there is no reading of the LOAs or interpretation of the Union-management discussions on NJA and NJI (going back to 2005) that could find those promises to be certain. Management making statements in front of groups of pilots that are contrary to the agreement (and intent of that agreement) does not change the agreement between the parties. While I know that some NJI pilots will feel screwed by this, they need to understand that it is not the Union screwing them here. Management (apparently) made promises they could not reasonably be expected to keep. The Union would be doing a disservice to its membership to renege on its obligations, just because a manager made bad promises.

I'll give you three concrete examples of actions we're taking with regard to NJI pilots: 1) basing, 2) pay, 3) seat position. No NJI crewmember will be displaced from his/her base as a result of the integration. No NJI pilot will suffer a loss of pay as a result of the integration. There will be no flush bid of positions at NJI. If we were truly being self-serving, we would hold the NJI pilots to the Crew Base system in our contract and if NJI pilots had to move or commute, so be it. We didn't do that. If we were being self serving, we would require NJI pilots to go immediately to our pay scale, even if that meant a loss in pay. We didn't to that. If we were being self-serving we would recognize that many NJI PICs could not hold PIC in Gulfstream equipment if based purely on VSL seniority and insist on a flush bid. Some Gulfstream PICs would hold PIC but in smaller NJA aircraft, others would be demoted to SIC. We didn't do that either. For all the NJI pilots that feel this integration LOA is unfair, there is at least an equal number of NJA pilots that feel the same way.

Hope that helps,
Brian

 

[Pervis]

Wolf, any change in wages to reach parity would have to take effect no later than final integation, unless agreed to by yet another LOA. A distinct possibility. I am not advocating a reduction and know the grandfather language. I am all for keeping the status quo for all NJI pilots, and am glad you will enjoy the better rules we currently enjoy, like OT and per diem. Parity in wages will not affect NJI negatively in the least. If junior pilots from either side make more than senior pilots, I will raise the BS flag no matter what side they are from. Seniority is supposed to mean more than simply paying a higher dollar amount in dues.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I am all for keeping the status quo for all NJI pilots, and am glad you will enjoy the better rules we currently enjoy, like OT and per diem.

I'm going the leave the rest alone. Water under the bridge, beating a dead horse, insert favorite cliche here. But as to the statement above:

OT pay: sounds great

Per diem: not so much

Carry on

 

[realityman]

Thanks again for the answers I was given. I am the first to admit if I'm wrong and my information on the money to the teamsters was way off base--not at all what I was lead to believe. It is a pleasure to see some of the cooler heads prevail and matters become less emotional. BW you are right, some of the "attackers" could be 15 year olds with too much time on their hand and a few of the others just seem to have huge chips on their shoulders. When most in an organization quit asking questions then we become a bunch of kool-aid drinkers and blind followers. I know a number of people that are on the NJA side--I've known them before they went to work there--they didn't go to work there to join a union, they joined a union because they went to work there. Many of those were not union advocates and had never been yet they saw the need under the circumstances and the union prevailed and conditions improved. I have discussed the 'NJI take over" with them on a number of occasions and it has always been in a civil manner--they, good naturedley accuse me of being a premadonna and I recipricate by calling them a bunch of slaggerts---but we have been friends for years and will continue to be so--I hope. Not a single one of them wants to come to the Gulfstream fleet and they have the seniority to do so--they like what they have right now. I will continue to disagree with those that say the bringing in of NJI was a good and fair thing to all. Most of those at NJI liked things the way they were and had been made promises as well--even as lately as some of the last hires--they were told they would upgrade in 3-5 years and that the union in or out made no difference. I fly with those guys all the time--what about their professions, their families the expectations they were given when they hired into NJI? I will be absolutely truthful-- there is a time and place for unions, there are times they are needed--NJA had that need, NJI didn't. You can recite all the union stuff about labor relations boards, the tacit or real requirement for single carrier status all you want but regardless of how you color it--NJI was taken over in what amounts to a hostile takeover----hostile meaning unwanted. Those with the chips--don't go running off the deep end. But now you want all to hitch up to the wagon and pull in the same direction. OK then one more question--what has the union given to the pilots at NJI that wasn't something that could appear self serving? Name me one time where they have reached out and said--"you know we don't get anything for this but it is the right thing to do for our future brothers. Take the example that I mentioned earlier--take the NJI FOs and grandfather them---allow them to move up within the Gulfstream fleet as they would have prior to the integration announcement--that is such a small thing but would send such a huge message. I'm sure I will hear about how that is impossible but then I ask you, do the people run the union or does the union run the people? This is one of many things that would send a true message to the future brothers. Please look at it from an unbiased perspective---what messages have been sent to the NJI pilots to this point--not in words but in actions?

Actually, have you even READ the integration LOA? quite a bit that's in there favors/protects the NJI folks. If you haven't taken the time to read it, then it's impossible to have a conversation with you about this.

As for grandfathering F/O's so they can upgrade before pilots who may be senior to them on the integrated seniority list, that would NOT be a "small" thing. I'm sure you're aware, but in this industry seniority is EVERYTHING. It determines pay, equipment biddable, vacations, and quite a few other QOL things as well. To allow one group to jump ahead of another would not be so little. But maybe you need to look at it this way: it doesn't appear as if upgrades in ANYTHING will be happening for a long time now. Due to the economy, not the union. With the seniority lists integrated, once upgrades start again, the current NJI F/O's RELATIVE SENIORITY will allow them to upgrade on schedule, just not into a Gulfstream. AND, almost as importantly, they will be upgrading ahead of many junior pilots on our current seniority list who have been paying union dues all along. Do you think that thought may be giving our folks a little heartburn?

There are many benefits you're going to realize once you're operating under our CBA. Unless, of course, you don't want to make extra money for everything past 12 hours and other such benefits. And you and the rest of the folks at NJI didn't have to pay one thin dime to the union for all the benefits you're going to get. You didn't have to march one single footstep on any of our picket lines, and will get all the benefits WE fought for. You really feel you're entitled to MORE just because you're involved in an integration you didn't want?

Finally, many of you saw this coming for quite some time. You had EVERY OPPORTUNITY to be more involved in the process. I KNOW FOR A FACT that we approached you a number of times about joining the union. Had you done it earlier, you could have had MUCH MORE SAY in how things went down. If that wasn't palatable, you could have formed your own union, if just for the one single purpose of having more say in what happened during the integration. Did you folks take ANY action other than say "Hey management, we trust you to represent our best interests"? Sorry, but maybe you should have checked with some of us who have had many more years of experience dealing with management and their willingness and ability to "represent the pilots' best interests" before you put your complete trust in them. Remember, the company could have fought this whole integration and maybe things could have been different (or better) for you. So if you're feeling short-changed, why not write to management about it?

Yes, some of your F/O's won't realize their goal of becoming a Gulfstream captain. But some of our F/O's (who by the way also have families to take care of) may be pushed back many years from a captain spot because your F/O's will be ahead of them on the combined seniority list. A little honey for all, and a little vinegar for all.

Oh, and as Pervis mentioned, all of you are pay-protected. Nice to see many of you will continue making more than even a senior captain from our side who is now flying a Gulfstream. Seems a little unfair to us, seeing as how we're the ones who have put all the effort into this, but hey, I'm not going to get too upset about not getting something I didn't already have when I'm already doing pretty well with what I DO have. And in the future, things will even out.

Not meaning any disrespect for you, or any NJI folks, in this post. Just hard to not get a tad bit wound up when someone thinks they're entitled some sort of consolation prize just because life isn't taking the exact direction they thought it would when starting out.

And yes, I do hope we can all pull together on the same team no matter how we got here. Heck, even as separate entities, I thought we already were on the same team.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Thanks again for the answers I was given. I am the first to admit if I'm wrong and my information on the money to the teamsters was way off base--not at all what I was lead to believe. It is a pleasure to see some of the cooler heads prevail and matters become less emotional. BW you are right, some of the "attackers" could be 15 year olds with too much time on their hand and a few of the others just seem to have huge chips on their shoulders. When most in an organization quit asking questions then we become a bunch of kool-aid drinkers and blind followers. I know a number of people that are on the NJA side--I've known them before they went to work there--they didn't go to work there to join a union, they joined a union because they went to work there. Many of those were not union advocates and had never been yet they saw the need under the circumstances and the union prevailed and conditions improved. I have discussed the 'NJI take over" with them on a number of occasions and it has always been in a civil manner--they, good naturedley accuse me of being a premadonna and I recipricate by calling them a bunch of slaggerts---but we have been friends for years and will continue to be so--I hope. Not a single one of them wants to come to the Gulfstream fleet and they have the seniority to do so--they like what they have right now. I will continue to disagree with those that say the bringing in of NJI was a good and fair thing to all. Most of those at NJI liked things the way they were and had been made promises as well--even as lately as some of the last hires--they were told they would upgrade in 3-5 years and that the union in or out made no difference. I fly with those guys all the time--what about their professions, their families the expectations they were given when they hired into NJI? I will be absolutely truthful-- there is a time and place for unions, there are times they are needed--NJA had that need, NJI didn't. You can recite all the union stuff about labor relations boards, the tacit or real requirement for single carrier status all you want but regardless of how you color it--NJI was taken over in what amounts to a hostile takeover----hostile meaning unwanted. Those with the chips--don't go running off the deep end. But now you want all to hitch up to the wagon and pull in the same direction. OK then one more question--what has the union given to the pilots at NJI that wasn't something that could appear self serving? Name me one time where they have reached out and said--"you know we don't get anything for this but it is the right thing to do for our future brothers. Take the example that I mentioned earlier--take the NJI FOs and grandfather them---allow them to move up within the Gulfstream fleet as they would have prior to the integration announcement--that is such a small thing but would send such a huge message. I'm sure I will hear about how that is impossible but then I ask you, do the people run the union or does the union run the people? This is one of many things that would send a true message to the future brothers. Please look at it from an unbiased perspective---what messages have been sent to the NJI pilots to this point--not in words but in actions?

The fundamental statement that is always applicable is that companies that have Unions deserve them. Companies that don't have unions either treat workers fairly and therefore a union is not required or have paid a lot of money to firms to keep unions from forming.

You will get a number of benefits from NJASAP when the entities are merged if you choose to join. That is right, there is nothing forcing you or your friends to join the Union if you or they don't want. You can be an Agency Fee Payer and pay for representational services and contract administration without belonging to NJASAP. The fee is the same but if Unions are so sideways in your craw then you don't have to belong. Of course with that you lose some privileges, just do your research if you choose that avenue.

In these times, I would think that the NJI pilots would want to expedite integration. The reality is that all the pilots are standing naked without protections because there is nothing to prevent management from laying NJI pilots off and/or downgrading them from Capt to FO. They could even determine that GVs are not marketable in the business, remove that fleet, and show all GV pilots the door instead of retraining them back to the GIV. The aviation industry is littered with examples such as this.

The CBA offers a lot of protections from a lot. Everything that NJI pilots have, they have by the good graces of management and there are a lot of pilots available right now that would do that job for less than they are paying NJI pilots. If management changes so could what you hold dear. Basing, food, schedules, pay, vacations all could change. I hope not for you but it could. I sleep better at night knowing that my time at NJA has earned me some protections. I don't believe that as long as RTS is in the picture these things will happen but if WB ever gets involved, watch out. He has a history.

While NJI might not have a questionable history with regard to invoking discipline, NJA did. That has largely stopped thanks to some herculean efforts from a few current and former senior Union officials. Discipline when warranted is metered out in a fair and equitable manner after a fair hearing (not a witch hunt) occurs with a representative of NJASAP if you so choose.

Scope protections are fundamental to survival. Look what is happening in the 121 world these days. Operational Control is not really enforced by the FAA or the courts. The impact is that main line carrier jobs are being outsourced to the regionals who are underpaid, overworked, and have no recourse. The same could happen here, especially when there is a glut of pilots who will do it for less.

I honestly believe that once integration has happened you will have a different perspective on NJASAP. It is really a service organization dedicated to NetJets pilots. When you get past preconceived images of Unions that get applied to pilot Unions, you will find thing are different. Lastly, RTS has even be quoted as saying he is glad to have a Union on property as it prevents overzealous managers from taking liberties that are not not in the best interest of anyone including the passengers.

 

[ozpilot]

For all the NJI pilots that feel this integration LOA is unfair, there is at least an equal number of NJA pilots that feel the same way.

Hope that helps,
Brian

Very true.

 

[harley30344]

I'm not sure I can be completely unbiased, although I'll try. I'll ask you to do the same. Only fair Remember, I am an NJA pilot and Union representative and I have been involved in the NJA Union for a number of years, including our negotiations of 2005. To completely shed those from my viewpoint is difficult if not impossible.

As far as promises made by management even prior to the "recognition notice," there is no reading of the LOAs or interpretation of the Union-management discussions on NJA and NJI (going back to 2005) that could find those promises to be certain. Management making statements in front of groups of pilots that are contrary to the agreement (and intent of that agreement) does not change the agreement between the parties. I understand that as well. While I know that some NJI pilots will feel screwed by this, they need to understand that it is not the Union screwing them here. Management (apparently) made promises they could not reasonably be expected to keep. The Union would be doing a disservice to its membership to renege on its obligations, just because a manager made bad promises. I agree, but isn't the bottom line here that management didn't want the union at NJI either? In that regard NJI pilots and management were on the same side of that argument so how do you conclude that managements bad promises are what in reality is screwing the pilot force at NJI? We are at a which came first--the chicken or the egg scenario.

I'll give you three concrete examples of actions we're taking with regard to NJI pilots: 1) basing, 2) pay, 3) seat position. No NJI crewmember will be displaced from his/her base as a result of the integration. No NJI pilot will suffer a loss of pay as a result of the integration. There will be no flush bid of positions at NJI. In other words--you are leaving it at the status quo. So it comes across to me: as we are going to take from you but we will leave you with a little of what you had before. Come on BW can you really call that a positive action towards NJI pilots? It just isn't a negagive--for that I guess we should be thankful If we were truly being self-serving, we would hold the NJI pilots to the Crew Base system in our contract and if NJI pilots had to move or commute, so be it. We didn't do that. If we were being self serving, we would require NJI pilots to go immediately to our pay scale, even if that meant a loss in pay. We didn't to that. If we were being self-serving we would recognize that many NJI PICs could not hold PIC in Gulfstream equipment if based purely on VSL seniority and insist on a flush bid. Some Gulfstream PICs would hold PIC but in smaller NJA aircraft, others would be demoted to SIC. We didn't do that either. For all the NJI pilots that feel this integration LOA is unfair, there is at least an equal number of NJA pilots that feel the same way. Probably even more but then we didn't come take their house because we liked the scenery better or simply because we wanted it to complete the scope of our neighborhood.
Hope that helps,
Brian

Thanks again for you honest and educated answers. I do hope this all works out but I see and honestly feel some of the bitterness and resentment those on the NJI side feel. I'm feel certain that professionalism will rule in the cockpit, it is outside that environment I'm somewhat concerned.

 

[BeeDubya]

harley,

You asked for examples of what was not "self serving" in the integration. Maintaining certain "status quo" exceptions at NJI does not serve the NJA pilots. Since our argument is that NJI should have always been under our Collecting Bargaining Agreement, then allowing these status quo items is significant and is not self-serving. To the view of the NJA pilots, it's giving pilots who have never paid dues a benefit they (NJA pilots) do not enjoy. Carrying our argument to its logical outcome would not allow the exceptions for NJI's status quo, but we agreed to them in the LOA.

Does management ever seek out a Union? Um.. no. There really is no chicken-and-egg issue, here. The company and Union have discussed the relationship between NJA and NJI as it applies to "craft and class" since at least 2004. All the LOAs foreshadowing the final integration were signed no later than 2007. By the time the promises were made that you claim, NetJets management had already agreed to the Integration LOAs. So whatever their past desires had been, they had agreed to the LOAs, and should have known those promises were inconsistent with their agreements with the Union. So, yes, I can say it was management's bad promises and not the Union that created the problem. I would not say the same of promises made prior to the agreements. I am only saying that pilots relying on management's promises (as you claim) may feel screwed, but they should realize that management apparently made statements it could not backup, which is not the Union's fault. Regardless of personal opinions, both Union reps and company managers have to abide by the agreements between the parties.

Hope this helps,
Brian

 

[harley30344]

Thank you Brian but I am as steadfast in my beliefs as your are in yours so I don't see a possible reconciliation on this subject. The mechanism is in place and the changes have already begun. I may have to deal with the stick but I will never have to like where it was placed. Fly safe.

 

[BeeDubya]

Thank you Brian but I am as steadfast in my beliefs as your are in yours so I don't see a possible reconciliation on this subject. The mechanism is in place and the changes have already begun. I may have to deal with the stick but I will never have to like where it was placed. Fly safe.

harley,

You and I may not agree on these issues. Still, I would encourage you to register with the Union (this will not make you a member, yet, it just puts you on our mailing list so we can provide you with information and gives you access to the message board). I would also encourage you to read the Contract and the Integration LOAs so that you will be familiar with the process and so there will be no surprises. As you do, note the signatures. The contract and Integration LOAs were signed by both company management and Union representatives. Whatever their initial misgivings, eventually the company decided to integrate NJI pilots under the Union Contract -- the company agreed to the terms. While it may feel like the Union is "coming into your house" (to borrow your analogy), it is only possible because the company opened the door.

Fraternally,
Brian