Today's Update from NJA

[Willy21]

HazMat,

He has the right to his opinion, and from what I have been reading he is asking B. W. questions and getting answers. Wolf also pointed out that there is a way for the NJI pilots to get information, ask questions and recieve their answers.

What we all need to look at is the history to this situation. RTS started NJI as a free standing operation. The pilots of NJA thought that that should not be the case. In the 2005 CBA the path was set to either have the company take care of this in house or let the courts decide. RTS made up his mind that the two will become one without the courts getting involved. In other words it is over. Now there might be some people that say one side won and the other lost. The way I see it is if we let this situation come between doing what makes NetJets great we all lose.

I see how one could say that the union was forced on the pilots of NJI. I can also see how the pilots of NJA have been hosed by not having all of the GIV and GV flying under one roof. What happened is in the past and nothing will change that. As somebody once said "it is what it is." It is done, there is no point in getting upset about it now.

The union is made up of many different voices. If one pilot of the 3300 that are on the VSL does not take part then the union is not as strong as it could be. Take the time to ask questions and make the people that are representing or will represent you take note of your voice.

 

[NJA bound]

You gave me no choice harley30344 I couldn't help but google your username to see what would come up, the second to the last entry on the second page was entertaining http://www.google.com/search?q=harley30344&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

That is really good but sorry to disappoint you-- no relations. But you do reinforce one of my earlier post about personal attacks and vindictive nature of the union rank and file if you disagree with them. They don't want to discuss the issues, they would rather shoot the messanger

I actually half believed you, gave you the benifit of the doubt, that may have been a different harley on the google search, but it's amazing how blazing fast the age went from 56 to 46.

I saw the age on the profile change within minutes during the exchange you had with NJAbound regarding it. It is entirely too coincidental to defy logic and even Juries are instructed to use their common sense, but in the interest of respecting a member's privacy I will drop it --if you will. Saved by the Wolf. ...

You set yourself up to look like a fool Harley.

Thanks for the back up NJW, I will drop it to.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

That says that all you NJI guys must buy all the rounds till the next CBA! .

Deal...

 

[brokeflyer]

You set yourself up to look like a fool Harley.

Thanks for the back up NJW, I will drop it to.

WOW....that rough right there...

And the conspiracy begins. Hope I dont become a chump by actully posting in reply to this guy.

 

[HazMat]

NJA your the fool nobody cares about some google search you did with NJW backup. It is meaningless to the discussion here. So let me understand someone disagrees with you and NJW so the reply is to disparage the guy. Pretty sad

 

[CE750Driver]

i don't understand why some seem to resent the perceived power of a union, yet are perfectly comfortable with all the power residing in management........

Well, being that the guy who wrote all, or the most, of the integration language is management now. And the fact that most of our union leaders probably still go to his house to have a beer every now and then, or at least still talk to him on his cell as friends. Management and the Union have never seemed more the same to me. Our a lot of guys I talk to.

I'm not saying there are improprieties going on, just that this is not an ideal situation, and can't end good.

Still funny though, BO doing the integration language, then leaving right after to go to management to oversee the integration. Hmmm. Wonder who got more of what they wanted, the union, or management.

Fuzzy lines there, especially with integration issues.

 

[brokeflyer]

Well, being that the guy who wrote all, or the most, of the integration language is management now. And the fact that most of our union leaders probably still go to his house to have a beer every now and then, or at least still talk to him on his cell as friends. Management and the Union have never seemed more the same to me. Our a lot of guys I talk to.

I'm not saying there are improprieties going on, just that this is not an ideal situation, and can't end good.

Still funny though, BO doing the integration language, then leaving right after to go to management to oversee the integration. Hmmm. Wonder who got more of what they wanted, the union, or management.

Fuzzy lines there, especially with integration issues.

i guess the objective for management is: "As long as I get mine"

sad.....my kids are the ones that you will need to look at.

 

[netjetwife]

Well, being that the guy who wrote all, or the most, of the integration language is management now. Considering the success of SU and 1108, it isn't surprising that Union leaders would have garnered the notice and respect of NJA. And the fact that most of our union leaders probably still go to his house to have a beer every now and then, What gives you that idea? I don't think any of them live near BO. or at least still talk to him on his cell as friends. You're speculating, right? I believe there are rules governing interaction between NJASAP and Management. My husband tells me that BO and TW are sometimes seen at joint meetings, but they haven't socialized w/Union leadership when he's around. Management and the Union have never seemed more the same to me. Our a lot of guys I talk to. When you're working on joint projects a lot as they are these days, to a large degree that's to be expected. That said, one has only to read the 4-1-1 that just came out to see that NJASAP leaders aren't shy about voicing their opinion and they continue to be strong pilot advocates.

I'm not saying there are improprieties going on, That's good because you'd have no basis for doing so. just that this is not an ideal situation, and can't end good. I beg to differ. In this economic climate it is imperative that all NJ groups work together to overcome a potentially dire situation. The JPMC wouldn't have been possible without that partnership, and we're not out of the woods, yet, by a long shot!

Still funny though, BO doing the integration language, then leaving right after to go to management to oversee the integration. Hmmm. Wonder who got more of what they wanted, the union, or management.

Fuzzy lines there, especially with integration issues.

I disagree; it looks quite clear to me. Had IBB, which included a fair Integration LOA, not taken place in '07 then NJASAP would now be gearing up for negotiations which very likely could have started early next year... I seriously doubt we would have seen a furlough mitigation package and we'd have been lucky to retain status quo on the contract. We should all be thankful that a strong labor-management working relationship has had a positive influence on how events transpired--in 2007 and recently. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

NJA your the fool Reminder: Subjective opinion does not equal fact. nobody cares about some google search you did with NJW backup. I did no more than other members might have done. Out of curiosity, I clicked on a link twice --and reported what I saw. It is meaningless to the discussion here. 'Bound and I have already conceded that and agreed to drop it--hint, hint. So let me understand someone disagrees with you and NJW so the reply is to disparage the guy....

If you truly wish to understand the situation, (and be fair) you will not ignore the insults and prejudiced remarks H posted. Yes, it was met with legitimate protests from myself and others. I stood firmly against discrimination and insisted on giving credit where credit is due. With my post quoting Wolf, I tried to end my part in the discussion on a positive note. I'm now joining other conversations.

Fozzy, I second your motion calling for an end to divisive, I vs A posts. And I'm impressed! I didn't realize you were an NJASAP negotiator in training...

Wolf, your quick agreement shows recognition of the importance of motivation...which shows leadership possibilities...

Willy21, good post with sound advice.. Here's a point I agree with wholeheartedly: "The way I see it is if we let this situation come between doing what makes NetJets great we all lose". Indeed, the economy is stressful and distracting enough. It's definitely time for moral support and teamwork. I think that path offers the best future and security of all of us! NJW

 

[BeeDubya]

You have spent a considerable amount of time answering my questions-Thank you. Your explanations are well thought out and in some cases convincing. ...Go to the njasap site and read about the grievances that have been filed and the employees that are being protected by the union. You will find incidents where bad service by an employee is being defended by the union. The point: in the past unions defended poor to mediocre performance employees--this then permeates into the service provided to the customers. ...

Another of the reasons I'm not pro-union is eximplified by this very site. There are too many members that will go after you personally if you disagree with them...

... Njasap has paid their former union a large sum of money--why?

OMG... I AM SO PI**ED!! I typed out a LONG response and then hit "post" and got an error message!!! AAGGGHHH! So, here I go again....

harley,

Again, I have not quoted your entire post to save space. I will do my best to answer your questions (assuming I don't get another error message!). You're welcome (from your first sentence).

A few thoughts on grievances. The overwhelming majority of grievances filed are work rules violations and not related to discipline. They are claims like the company failing to pay the appropriate amount of OT, or denying a valid expense. Now, of the grievances we take to arbitration, most of those are discipline or terminations.

The Union has a legal obligation to defend those it represents, called the "duty of fair representation." If the Union fails at its duty, the wronged member can take legal action against the Union. This has to be weighed carefully by the leadership when deciding how far to take a particular grievance. It may lead the Union to defend individuals whose actions do not seem to warrant defense. The other part of the equation is the "just cause" standard, which includes a proper investigatory process. As agreed to in our Contract, the company can discipline pilots with "just cause." This is to ensure that discipline is applied fairly and not wantonly or capriciously. Many times what the Union is defending is not the employee's actions, per se, but the process that has been violated.

It has been my experience that when looking at a particular grievance, the Union leadership will consider the opinions of internal and external counsel, and if they advise that there is a case, factual or procedural, then the leadership will chose to arbitrate. What you may not see on our site, is that arbitration is not automatic in all discipline cases. There have been cases (and I assume there will be again) that the Union does not arbitrate because there is no case to argue.

You mentioned a connection between defending pilots and a reduction in customer service. I'm only aware of one case we've arbitrated that had any connection to customer service, and we lost. I do not think a losing case would move anyone toward poor performance. Quite the opposite, in fact, I think it would encourage pilots to perform customer service better, knowing that we cannot save them from their poor choices.

Clearly by my posts, I do not engage in personal attacks. It's one of the reasons I hate anonymous boards and have chosen to never remain anonymous on any board. You may not like what I say, but you'll know who said it! I think the anonymity emboldens folks to do/say things they never would if their name were attached. I would not assume that anyone who does not identify themselves is who they say they are, so those attacking you may or may not be NJA pilots and/or Union members. They could be bored 15-year-olds for all I know. I will add that you stated that the anonymity of this board has emboldened you to ask questions and opine in ways you would not if your name were attached.

I think your last question was answered by another poster. The repayment was required as part of our separation agreement.

Hope this helps,
Brian