To the Mesaba pilot jumpseating MEM-GSO last night

[Inconceivable]

Absolutely. But we have to pick and choose which battles we fight.

I think I just heard Chesty roll over in his grave.

 

[mrflier]

"BTW, Caveman, are you a commuter?"

I am not but I have been in the past. Frankly, that's a red herring. I don't have to be a commuter to have an opinion on this.

I agree, you don't have to be a commuter, but I do think one's perspective does change (especially after you get left behind a few times).

I answered your questions, please answer mine. Would either of you (mcpickle or mrflier) agree to deadhead in the actual jumpseat to help get an OAL pilot or nonrev a seat in the back? If so, how is that any different than doing the same for a revenue pax?

I absolutely would sit in the front (and I have done this several times) to help out another offline jumpseater or other non-rev employee. I believe I am consistent in that I view jumpseating (whether on- or offline) and non-rev travel as an industry benefit and not another cost-saving vehicle to be used by air carriers. (But I have to admit, you do make a good point.)

 

[Caveman]

Inconceivable,

You make some great points and a very compelling argument. You've at least made me reconsider, but, for now, I'll still offer to ride the jumpseat to help get anybody a seat in back. I'd rather not let ego and pride get in the way of helping another human being. Even if it means 'the man' got one over on me. I'll sleep better at night.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Inconceivable,

You make some great points and a very compelling argument. You've at least made me reconsider, but, for now, I'll still offer to ride the jumpseat to help get anybody a seat in back. I'd rather not let ego and pride get in the way of helping another human being. Even if it means 'the man' got one over on me. I'll sleep better at night.

Caveman,

I've got to translate your post for my fellow pilots:

You'd rather not let the company making a buck get in the way of helping a fellow pilot.

The duty, honor, country does not transfer to capitalism. It works well on the battlefield, however, if pilots are serve with duty, honor and country then so must the companies that employ them.

If the company wants to make the most money, then it can, staff effeciently, deadhead earlier or buy the seat from themselves.

Again, the company has not instructed you or are they counting on you to make these kinds of decisions. If they were, you'd know it.

The Capt owns and controls the jumpseat. End of story. Otherwise, your supervisor will be directing you the Capt to take an off line pilot in your jumpseat. All under the premise of "you don't want to cancel a flight do you?"

Finally, I see it is your ego that you're looking out for..... So you can pat yourself on the back, taking the high road, which in this case is the road of the almighty dollar.

Submitted respectfully....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

PCL and Lear-

Thanks for clarifying that.. Thankfully I haven't had the situation yet. I feel terrible on the rare occasions that I have to leave guys behind.

 

[Caveman]

(post deleted)

Nevermind.....

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. These conversations always eventually degenerate into pissing contests. Rez, you almost sucked me in. I'll pass.

Adios....

 

[pianoman]

Counterpoint: What if you take the the j/s and bumping the commuter because you wanted to get a passenger on caused that pilot to mistrip? Now have you stranded 50 more pax?

Bottom line- companies need to figure out how to DH people AND manage revenue.

 

[Rook]

Had this dilemma a couple of months ago. Deadhead from BGR-DTW. When we checked in heard that the flight was oversold so I told the Comair (hey Cave!) ground personnel I would volunteer to ride the jumpseat to help them out...if it was ok with the Captain of the flight. He didn't mind and the Comair CSA's were thankful. Now keep in mind we didn't have anyone trying to jumpseat to DTW that day. I did ask the Captain if it was ok and he said yes. Just trying to help and it worked out that day. If given the choice to take a jumspseater over a paying pax, it's a tough call. Maybe the JS'er is a friend of mine. Maybe the pax is on their way to a funeral. It's a tough call but the bottom line is that the pax deserves the cabin seat. Commuters choose to commute. And being a former 2-leg commuter I've missed my share of commutes home. But what happens if the CA refuses to give a deadheading pilot the j/s? Does he get reprimanded for not being a 'team player?'

 

[Rook]

Bottom line- companies need to figure out how to DH people AND manage revenue.

Bingo!

 

[mckpickle]

Had this dilemma a couple of months ago. Deadhead from BGR-DTW. When we checked in heard that the flight was oversold so I told the Comair (hey Cave!) ground personnel I would volunteer to ride the jumpseat to help them out...if it was ok with the Captain of the flight. He didn't mind and the Comair CSA's were thankful. Now keep in mind we didn't have anyone trying to jumpseat to DTW that day. I did ask the Captain if it was ok and he said yes. Just trying to help and it worked out that day. If given the choice to take a jumspseater over a paying pax, it's a tough call. Maybe the JS'er is a friend of mine. Maybe the pax is on their way to a funeral. It's a tough call but the bottom line is that the pax deserves the cabin seat. Commuters choose to commute. And being a former 2-leg commuter I've missed my share of commutes home. But what happens if the CA refuses to give a deadheading pilot the j/s? Does he get reprimanded for not being a 'team player?'

It's great that you helped out as I encourage everyone to do IF THERE ARE NO JUMPSEATERS!

The bottom line is it is the captains jumpseat. At XJT gate agents try to pull this all the time. if the captain finds out about it he talks to the agent and tells them under no circumstance will a possitive spaced deadheader ride in the cockpit while a jumpseater stays behind. And if it does happen I get a phone call and the station hears about it.

It's a 50 seat a/c, not a 51 seat a/c. Revenue management is not our problem, neither is moving people to training or to assignments. No one at our company would be reprimanded for refusing a deadheader in the JS. And they would have the full support of the union behind them.

Man, I honestly can't believe some of you guys!

 

[D'Angelo]

for christs sakes people just move already! Just tell your wives/significant others that commuting is not an option at your job. If you do unfortunately get transfered well that happens at a lot of jobs and in the military all the time. Quit abusing yourselves and just move. Sure its nice to live where you want but is it really worth the hassle? All you have to do is say that your not allowed to commute, its not an option and unfortunately you will have to move. Remember you check the box in the interview saying your willing to relocate. If you don't move then there are inconvienences you will have to deal with.

 

[Rook]

It's great that you helped out as I encourage everyone to do IF THERE ARE NO JUMPSEATERS!

The bottom line is it is the captains jumpseat. At XJT gate agents try to pull this all the time. if the captain finds out about it he talks to the agent and tells them under no circumstance will a possitive spaced deadheader ride in the cockpit while a jumpseater stays behind. And if it does happen I get a phone call and the station hears about it. Good guidelines to follow

It's a 50 seat a/c, not a 51 seat a/c. Revenue management is not our problem, neither is moving people to training or to assignments. No one at our company would be reprimanded for refusing a deadheader in the JS. And they would have the full support of the union behind them. That's also good to know

Man, I honestly can't believe some of you guys!

It's the internet man. Relax. Sheesh!

 

[wheelsup]

for christs sakes people just move already! Just tell your wives/significant others that commuting is not an option at your job.

What would you tell your kids? Hey, I know it's only been 8 months, but we gotta move again. Sorry! Make new friends...

My father is/was Air Force, and we moved around every few years, and that was hard enough. At least he was making decent coin to move halfway across the country...

Or are you suggesting only single or people without kids should be pilots? And maybe only people with wives that would go at their beckoning? Get real.

No, I don't have any kids or a wife. Just looking at it from the other side.

 

[PCL_128]

Man, I honestly can't believe some of you guys!

Ain't that the truth! I can't believe this is even a debate. Just another case of pilots screwing pilots.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

What it boils down to then is some of you think that giving a courtesy ride to a fellow pilot trumps making sure a paying passenger gets to their destination. If that's the case, then we'll have to agree to disagree. The pax comes first as far as I'm concerned.

Always nice to hear from another fully assimilated pilot. The fact of the matter is, we're already subsidizing a good chunk of his ticket price. That's enough. I'll sit up front on a case-by-case basis, but never if it means a fellow pilot gets left behind. Never.

 

[Lear70]

It's great that you helped out as I encourage everyone to do IF THERE ARE NO JUMPSEATERS!

The bottom line is it is the captains jumpseat. At XJT gate agents try to pull this all the time. if the captain finds out about it he talks to the agent and tells them under no circumstance will a possitive spaced deadheader ride in the cockpit while a jumpseater stays behind. And if it does happen I get a phone call and the station hears about it.

It's a 50 seat a/c, not a 51 seat a/c. Revenue management is not our problem, neither is moving people to training or to assignments. No one at our company would be reprimanded for refusing a deadheader in the JS. And they would have the full support of the union behind them.

Man, I honestly can't believe some of you guys!

I agree with you on everything but that last part if it was directed at Rook. He's a standup guy and tries to do the right thing, and everyone here is entitled to their opinions, I simply try to sway them through a combination of facts (FOM policy, jumpseat policy from OUR ALPA JUMPSEAT COMMITTEE - thanks to PCL for posting) and rhetoric.

I think EVERYONE here can agree that if there is a revenue pax that needs to get on or an OAL (Offline) pilot, you feel it safe regarding rest and upcoming flight duties, and the PIC doesn't mind, then we'll take the jumpseat and make sure we don't leave them behind if at all possible.

The issue is with bumping a revenue passenger for a jumpseater with a positive-space crewmember in the back. My main point is to TRY ALL AVAILABLE OPTIONS, FIND OUT IF THERE IS A HUMAN FACTORS NEED FOR ONE OR THE OTHER TO GET THERE, THEN MAKE A COMMAND DECISION.

All available options: get the gate agent to offer compensation to any pax who will stay and take a later flight. This solves the problem 90% of the time. Ask if the jumpseater has a backup they can take and still make it home or make their report. If so, THEY should be the standup guy and take it.

Find out if there is a human factors issue: is someone going to a funeral / wedding / child's 1st birthday? Is the pax getting bumped a U.M. or have other issues? Is it the last flight of the day?

Lastly, make a command decision based on "doing the right thing" while not alienating our customers. The company bears the responsibility to stop overbooking flights, stop deadheading every other leg, and staff the airline properly for staged overnights. I bear the responsibility to make an intelligent, responsible decision regarding MY jumpseat.

for christs sakes people just move already! Just tell your wives/significant others that commuting is not an option at your job. If you do unfortunately get transfered well that happens at a lot of jobs and in the military all the time. Quit abusing yourselves and just move. Sure its nice to live where you want but is it really worth the hassle? All you have to do is say that your not allowed to commute, its not an option and unfortunately you will have to move. Remember you check the box in the interview saying your willing to relocate. If you don't move then there are inconvienences you will have to deal with.

OK, so you're advocating lying to your wife? "All you have to do is say you are not allowed to commute..."? Are you fu*king kidding me? THAT'S the basis for a good relationship.

As far as moving, in the inestimable words of Captain Hunter: "Kiss My Dumb A*s." Some of us have custody issues and CAN'T move. Some of us have family issues where we CAN'T move (sick parents who require our part-time assistance).

I would suggest you rethink your position.

 

[fly4ever]

Caveman,

Another point you may have missed was that the gate agent and the 9E captain conspired to keep the XJ captain off of the jumpseat. They were not trying to keep a paying passenger on the airplane they were trying to keep another airline crewmember OFF of the airplane.

That is unprofessional behavior at the very least.

Lear70 is correct in his assessment of the jumpseat policies and the proper use of the jumpseat. The worst part of this story is the fact that the 9E captain would go out of his way to screw the XJ captain.

Lear70,

Keep posting - you have a clearer understanding of the redtail dilemma than most and your info is valuable.

Fly

 

[Caveman]

"I think EVERYONE here can agree that if there is a revenue pax that needs to get on or an OAL (Offline) pilot, you feel it safe regarding rest and upcoming flight duties, and the PIC doesn't mind, then we'll take the jumpseat and make sure we don't leave them behind if at all possible."

I agree with you completely, but from what I'm reading here some of us will not ride the JS just to make a point with management.

"The issue is with bumping a revenue passenger for a jumpseater with a positive-space crewmember in the back. My main point is to TRY ALL AVAILABLE OPTIONS, FIND OUT IF THERE IS A HUMAN FACTORS NEED FOR ONE OR THE OTHER TO GET THERE, THEN MAKE A COMMAND DECISION.

All available options: get the gate agent to offer compensation to any pax who will stay and take a later flight. This solves the problem 90% of the time. Ask if the jumpseater has a backup they can take and still make it home or make their report. If so, THEY should be the standup guy and take it.

Find out if there is a human factors issue: is someone going to a funeral / wedding / child's 1st birthday? Is the pax getting bumped a U.M. or have other issues? Is it the last flight of the day?

Lastly, make a command decision based on "doing the right thing" while not alienating our customers. The company bears the responsibility to stop overbooking flights, stop deadheading every other leg, and staff the airline properly for staged overnights. I bear the responsibility to make an intelligent, responsible decision regarding MY jumpseat. "

I agree with the spirit of what you said, but unless there are extremely extenuating circumstances the pax will get the nod over the jumpseater.

(Hi Rook)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree with you completely, but from what I'm reading here some of us will not ride the JS just to make a point with management.

Caveman,

Again you...keep hooking up the defibulator to the dead horse trying to get some life back into it.... and we are suckers to keep beating it down, when we should know your infant defib won't work on this horse....


It is not about making a point to management. We not are trying to stick it to the Man....

A postive space DH pilot bumping a jumpseater on personal travel is not policy or procedure... It is not expected by management. Realize that this is about management overbooking a flight with the hope that some pax will no show. Or a last minute staffing issue that is in crisis control. Thus, management is intentionally screwing revenue paying passengers. It is not our job or responsbility to UNscrew the passengers, by SCREWing a fellow pilot!

It is only precieved by you as the right thing to do..which is fine. However, you are expensing your fellow pilot for a passenger that has no expexctation that a magical seat will instantly fold out of the cockpit making a cabin seat now available to them...

In other words, like religion and politcs, this is all in your own mind....

Finally, I have learned along time ago.... once a Marine makes up his mind, he is not going to change it....

Respectfully.....

 

[rdloftis]

Lear 70,

I don't know who you are, but I think I remember your face. I'm the Mesaba guy who didn't make it home the other night. I wanted to thank you for a sincere and professional post in response to what happened and also apologize if I came off a little harsh to the three of you standing there. Understand I have a wife and three kids who I hadn't seen in five days and I had just got off the phone telling my wife I'd be home in a couple of hours when the other 9E pilot walked up. You guys just happened to be standing there when I was walking away, so I didn't mean to take it out on you. But thank you again for following up on what happened, it means a lot.
I know that pilot doesn't represent the majority, as I have always been treated very well by all of you and even had a few go out of their way to get me on, so no worries.
I would have responded sooner, but I wasn't a member of this site until somebody called me the other day and told me about your post on here, so I signed up to write back.
Thanks again for following up and talking to him and the agent. Maybe one day I can repay the favor.

Richard Loftis
MEM Avro Captain

 

[Inconceivable]

Class act

 

[Rook]

Class act

Agreed.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Understand I have a wife and three kids who I hadn't seen in five days and I had just got off the phone telling my wife I'd be home in a couple of hours

Understood.... XJ welcome anyday!

 

[DoinTime]

Guys, we need to get this stuff straight. Don't bump fellow pilots from the JS for company business under any circumstances.

From the brand new "Pinnacle Airlines Jumpseat Policies and Procedures" printed by the PCL MEC and Jumpseat Committee: (bold emphasis is mine)

A deadheading certificated airman is not required to ride on the cockpit jumpseat if no seats are available in the passenger compartment, or weight and balance requires him to occupy the seat. The only "must rides" are included in Class 1 of the priority list. The FAA has ruled that a deadheading crewmember is not considered a "must ride" and, therefore, should not be treated as such. Any Captain who refuses a deadheading crewmember from the flight deck jumpseat has the unfettered authority to deny such access, and there will be no action from management to punish such decision.
​

PCL contract section 26.X:

RETURN FROM OUT-OF-DOMICILE FLYING
When the Company schedules a pilot to deadhead, the designated deadhead flight will be the first flight (either on-line or off-line, at the Company’s option) after the pilot’s flight duty ends (consistent with legal connection times). Deadhead will be positive space; however, if boarding a pilot would result in denied boarding to a revenue passenger and the jumpseat is available, the pilot will ride in the jumpseat.

While this is technically an unrelated section due to its title of "return from out of domicile flying" it sets a dangerous precedent as deadheading out of domicile is not addressed.

I guess the way around it is to get the commuting pilot signed up for the cockpit jumpseat then it would be considered "not available."

 

[mckpickle]

PCL contract section 26.X:




While this is technically an unrelated section due to its title of "return from out of domicile flying" it sets a dangerous precedent as deadheading out of domicile is not addressed.

I guess the way around it is to get the commuting pilot signed up for the cockpit jumpseat then it would be considered "not available."

As a captain I would interpret that to say that my jumpseat has already been taken.!!! SO hence it is not availible.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70,

I don't know who you are, but I think I remember your face. I'm the Mesaba guy who didn't make it home the other night. I wanted to thank you for a sincere and professional post in response to what happened and also apologize if I came off a little harsh to the three of you standing there. Understand I have a wife and three kids who I hadn't seen in five days and I had just got off the phone telling my wife I'd be home in a couple of hours when the other 9E pilot walked up. You guys just happened to be standing there when I was walking away, so I didn't mean to take it out on you. But thank you again for following up on what happened, it means a lot.
I know that pilot doesn't represent the majority, as I have always been treated very well by all of you and even had a few go out of their way to get me on, so no worries.
I would have responded sooner, but I wasn't a member of this site until somebody called me the other day and told me about your post on here, so I signed up to write back.
Thanks again for following up and talking to him and the agent. Maybe one day I can repay the favor.

Richard Loftis
MEM Avro Captain

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Richard, my name is Rich Murphy, nice to meet you!

I used to be pretty involved with our Association and the other Captain walking with us is the F/O rep in MEM (we were discussing 3 of our pilots who were wrongfully terminated - he had been gone a few days and our CA rep doesn't exactly communicate well so he hadn't heard) so your question caught us off-guard and we were kind of looking at each other like, "What was THAT all about?" when you talked to us. He was in a hurry so he couldn't address it, but it didn't "feel" right so I followed up and that's how I got involved.

I almost wish you would have still been hanging around or I'd have been about 5 minutes earlier, as we probably could have talked some sense into the two Captains (the one flying and the one deadheading - we were all delayed 30 minutes because the printers weren't printing releases), plus that gate agent is NOT exactly our most friendly OR accomodating (take her out of her normal flow of work and she gets pretty flustered).

I know what it's like to have family at home you haven't seen in a week; my wife, 9 year old and 4 month old were expecting me home last night when all 3 Nashville flights cancelled; ended up driving home (tried to get my buddy Brian Campbell - Avro F/O - to come with us but I guess he just wanted to hit the hotel and pass out). There's nothing more precious in this career than time at home with family... the longer I work, the more I understand.

So thanks for your patience and understanding, as well as professionalism to take the time to post here. Blue skies, and I'll buy first round if we ever all get stuck again! :beer:

Caveman, I USED to feel like you did, that the customer came first no matter what, but either I've woken up and smelled the kool aid or after 15 years of flying, 1 failed carrier, two furloughs, and STILL only making $60k a year halfway through my professional career, I just don't have the urge to "take one for the team" or "go the extra mile" unless my employer feels the same towards its employees. They don't, so I don't. It's not trying to "screw the man", it's "trying not to screw our buddies who are already getting screwed by the man". We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this one. And I'll STILL buy the first round...

'Time, you're absolutely correct about the contract reference. However, you'll remember that THE FOM IS REGULATORY IN NATURE. Violate the FOM, and you can find yourself with a certificate action. Soooo, with the Alert Bulletin that says "Deadheading crewmembers will ride in the cabin", you have the perfect "loophole" to make your decision.

Obviously, you could justify this either way, but as long as management leaves that blurb out there in the FOM, we have a way to make sure we do whatever WE consider to be "the right thing." Not to mention, as MckPickle alluded, the jumpseat being "available" is a relative thing...

Needless to say, you know how I feel about our manuals and our company's inability to make them all agree on the same points for all employees (I love when our F/A manual directly contradicts the FOM, that's my FAVORITE, but I digress).

 

[Rush100]

Here's the deal

I was the capt on that flight. Talked to the Mesaba jumperseater on the way to plane. He told me it was full. Told him the front seat not a problem. Signed the jumpseat form and went down to the plane.

About 30 min later Pinnacle Capt shows up in the cockpit (about 8 min prior to push). Says he is jumping to GSO. I asked him if he was going home. He said he was deadheading. I told him there was a Mesaba capt trying to jump home. Asked Pinnacle capt if he saw the Mesaba Capt. He said he wasn't happy. By this time everyone is boarded, and flt att tells us 1 seat in back. I told the pinnacle capt to go back up and look for the Mesaba capt. Came back and said he was gone.

The Pinnacle capt ended up sitting in the back and the jumpseat was empty.

 

[Lear70]

I was the capt on that flight. Talked to the Mesaba jumperseater on the way to plane. He told me it was full. Told him the front seat not a problem. Signed the jumpseat form and went down to the plane.

About 30 min later Pinnacle Capt shows up in the cockpit (about 8 min prior to push). Says he is jumping to GSO. I asked him if he was going home. He said he was deadheading. I told him there was a Mesaba capt trying to jump home. Asked Pinnacle capt if he saw the Mesaba Capt. He said he wasn't happy. By this time everyone is boarded, and flt att tells us 1 seat in back. I told the pinnacle capt to go back up and look for the Mesaba capt. Came back and said he was gone.

The Pinnacle capt ended up sitting in the back and the jumpseat was empty.

That doesn't QUITE ring true. Not calling you a liar, just saying the conversation I had at the gate with the agent and one of the CA's went a little something different.

The gate agent and the pilot told the Mesaba jumpseater point-blank that the deadheading Captain was taking the jumpseat, period. They told ME that they were "working together to 'get it done', don't worry about it, *wink* *wink*." The CA and the gate agent stood together up by the counter for over 40 minutes after the Mesaba pilot left - I was at the gate directly adjacent and was also up at the counter trying to get my release.

I'll check PARS when I get back to work on Thursday to verify.

This thread wasn't designed to bash the Pinnacle crew, it was to apologize to the Mesaba pilot in a way that would hopefully inspire debate on the subject and get guys to think of ways around the problem for future use.

Hopefully mine and other suggestions in this thread has inspired some thoughts for next time of "options" you may feel the need to take to try to get the jumpseater on board and realize that you have the option to force the gate agent to take other actions.

It's not "us against them", it's simple courteous and PROPER use of the jumpseat.

 

[xjlifer]

Hey Lear,

You sir are a class act. Getting involved on a issue like this shows class. I know Rich and he is a great guy....your right time at home becomes more precious with the amount of time one is in this industry. Like you I am on my second carrier and on my 16th year of flying. We are in a service industry and I try and do all I can to make sure the Pax get were they want to go. Having said that we are in a situation (90% load factors), every part of our industry is strained to the breaking point. We as pilots have very few "on our corner" so it is up to us to do all we can to help our fellow pilots.

I welcome all pilots on my Jump seat.

My name is Ken Staske and I am a MEM Avro Cpt.

 

[rdloftis]

Lear (Rich)
Just read your post and wanted to say thanks again. You really didn't have to do that, but I really appreciate it. A fellow Mesaba pilot posted on our ALPA site to me that he knows and talked to the jumpseating captain that night and said that the gate agent had already given away his seat. Looking back, I understand if he was uncomfortable taking a revenue passenger off the flight. Really though, no worries. I think most of my frustration had to do with what we're all putting up with right now. Bad schedules, uncertain future, yada yada yada... Throw that in with family waiting at home, and I got a little upset.
Didn't know you're friends with Campbell. When you see him again, address him as "BFC". He'll know what you mean.
Also, we have a crashpad at the Holiday Inn on Democrat Rd. If you're ever there for recurrent ask the front desk to put you through to the Mesaba room. I'll buy the beer. I owe you one.
Take care,
Rich