To the Mesaba pilot jumpseating MEM-GSO last night

[Caveman]

O.k., maybe I'm missing something. Enlighten me please. A deadheading pilot elected to ride the jumpseat so a paying pax wouldn't get bumped. As a result another pilot didn't get the jumpseat and so everybody is pissed because a commuter got 'screwed'.

Hmmmm. Anybody besides me care one little bit about the customer and their needs? I understand about not using the jumpseat for company business, but what about taking care of the customers? Getting a jumpseater from point A to point B is an extremely high priority in my book, but it's after all the paying pax are cared for first. If that means asking a deadheading crewmember to ride the jumpseat, so be it. IMO anybody that would bump a paying pax just to make a point with the company is foolish. The fact that another commuting pilot misses the flight is unfortunate, but still secondary to the overall mission of providing service to our customers. I think some of us have put the cart before the horse.

 

[mckpickle]

Yes you are missing something.....The jumpseat is a professional courtesy that is offered by the captain of a flight to another pilot. It is not a means by which the company may deadhead people around. That takes away the captains discression about who he may offer HIS jumpseat to. This is one of the last things we have left as captains and management is trying to undermine it.

 

[Caveman]

What it boils down to then is some of you think that giving a courtesy ride to a fellow pilot trumps making sure a paying passenger gets to their destination. If that's the case, then we'll have to agree to disagree. The pax comes first as far as I'm concerned.

 

[FCPhotography]

After making $17,200 last year and having 20 hours of deadhead in my schedule for this month, I can't sit in the jumpseat.

We deadhead all the time from MSP to ELP and it is about 3.5 hours gate to gate. That is a half day on my laptop that I don't have to work at home.

I like to feel like a business traveler when I deadhead (because that is exectly what you are) and it helps dealing with the $17,200 salary. If the company is going to pay us half for deadheads and purposely builds lines with 20 hours of DHing, then that is what they will get.

I owe it to my family to be more productive while at work and since pilots have had so much taken from them over the years I will do what I can to make another's commute easier. Sitting in the JS while deadheading is not an option in my book. Plus, sometimes it is distracting to the crews. Back to the PIC having final authority to

 

[FCPhotography]

After making $17,200 last year and having 20 hours of deadhead in my schedule for this month, I can't sit in the jumpseat.

We deadhead all the time from MSP to ELP and it is about 3.5 hours gate to gate. That is a half day on my laptop that I don't have to work at home.

I like to feel like a business traveler when I deadhead (because that is exectly what you are) and it helps dealing with the $17,200 salary. If the company is going to pay us half for deadheads and purposely builds lines with 20 hours of DHing, then that is what they will get.

I owe it to my family to be more productive while at work and since pilots have had so much taken from them over the years I will do what I can to make another's commute easier. Sitting in the JS while deadheading is not an option in my book. Plus, sometimes it is distracting to the crews. Back to the PIC having final authority towards the safety of the flight.

 

[Caveman]

Don't confuse the issues. One issue is whether or not we should offer to ride the JS in order to help a paying pax keep their seat. I say yes, you say no. I understand your rationale as to why you don't think so I just think you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. The customer is paying the bills.

The other issue, and the original point of this thread, is who has priority? A paying pax or a jumpseater? Somebody is getting left behind. I say it should be the jumpseater. I just can't find any justification for dumping a paying pax in favor of a jumpseater.

Those of you who favor never deadheading in the jumpseat, would you still ride in the back on principle even if it meant an OAL jumpseater couldn't go? I didn't think so. Don't camouflage your dislike for company scheduling policies behind the idea that the jumpseat is sacred. Most of you WOULD ride up front to help another pilot. Why wouldn't you do it for a paying passenger?

 

[mrflier]

Don't camouflage your dislike for company scheduling policies behind the idea that the jumpseat is sacred. Most of you WOULD ride up front to help another pilot. Why wouldn't you do it for a paying passenger?

Jumpseating is a benefit, just like all the other (well, what's left, anyway) benefits. It's like pensions, medical insurance, etc. By your logic, if we really wanted to help a passenger, why don't you give up one of these benefits too, say your medical insurance. That way, we can accomodate more paying passengers...right?

Do you see where we are coming from? I don't mind helping out the company when I can (even if they don't do the same for us), but not at the price of eliminating one of the few pure benefits we still have left. BTW, Caveman, are you a commuter?

 

[mckpickle]

But the company has to take into account the cost of doing buisness. If the company needs to deahead people around that is their cost to incur. Not a cost to be placed upon a captains jumpseat. It is his jumpseat. I'm guessing by your avatar that you are former military. You guys tend to lean twords the "help the company at any cost" attitude. Thats great and all but you need to understand that it is the captains jumpseat.....it's always has been and many people like myself are here to protect that one bennefit we have left.

 

[Caveman]

"Do you see where we are coming from? I don't mind helping out the company when I can (even if they don't do the same for us)....."

I do.

"But the company has to take into account the cost of doing buisness."

Absolutely. But we have to pick and choose which battles we fight. I just think we have to take care of the customer no matter what. I know it benefits the company. I know the company may sometimes take advantage of it. Putting the customer first is paramount in my estimation. Sometimes you gotta draw the line and for each of us it's different.

"BTW, Caveman, are you a commuter?"

I am not but I have been in the past. Frankly, that's a red herring. I don't have to be a commuter to have an opinion on this.

I answered your questions, please answer mine. Would either of you (mcpickle or mrflier) agree to deadhead in the actual jumpseat to help get an OAL pilot or nonrev a seat in the back? If so, how is that any different than doing the same for a revenue pax?

 

[Inconceivable]

Caveman--

Actually you are missing a point. That is the fact that must-ride deadheading crewmember trumps, bumps, and outranks a revenue pax. Ergo the name "must-ride."

Lear 70 points out that use of the jumpseat is a negotiated benefit. Forget brotherhood, esprit de corps, never leaving a buddy behind or any of the things that EGA represents; just consider what dead-heading means in the first place.

It means MANAGEMENT has made the decision to position crews at the expense of revenue pax. Not you, not me, not Rich, not the gate agent. Someone with a suit decided to f! that passenger and they did it a month ago when the schedules were created.

Show up on time. Do your job right, do it well, do it safely. Follow the rules, policies and procedures. You fly an airplane You are not in marketing, customer relations, scheduling. Don't be a hero. You could extend that "can do" attitude to shooting your own CatII approaches if you want, but you shouldn't. Over a decade in this business has tought me that the only time "heros" are noticed are when those good intentions don't quite work out. Funny how no one remembers the good things you di up to that point....

I am a little p!ssed today beacuse a good pilot (okay 3, but I only know 1)was termed yesterday for "insubordination" at PCL beacuse he refused to bend the contract in the companies favor. PCL now believes that "fly now, grieve later" is the law. Rumor has it that the Chief Pilot tried to block their firing but was overruled by Phil Trennary, el Jefe himself. What does it tell you when the head of an airline is personally involved in firing pilots?

These three found themselves in this situation for only one reason: other pilots "helped out" and gave away their NEGOTIATED benefits (like not taking reduced rest on CDO's) to the detriment of us all. I no longer work at PCL and haven't for years, but like Mesa pay, this cr@p makes its way through the industry and will affect us all. By giving in, tens or hundreds of other pilots set the stage for these people to be screwed for doing what was their right. Should we be concerned that a load of pax hade to wait an extra hour to comply with the contract as a result of weather? Or should we be more concerned the the pax were flown by a rested crew? Management is willing to roll the dice on YOUR safety. After all, if you screw up they will just fire you. (c.f. "hero", two papragraphs up)

You have PAID for everything in your contract. Commuting benefits, insurance, days off--these are all things that are given in lieu of additional dollars and cents on your check. Management knows what it cost to deadhead you. Management knows what it costs to keep the jumpseat open. You receive less cash twice a month as a result. They've already calculated their cost of doing business.

So in response, I am not camoflaging my dislike for company scheduling policies. I am just telling you that my negotiated contract is not going to be modified because of THEIR business decision. You want me to manage some aspect of the business outside of my little tube? Make me VP of whatever. Until then, I just fly the plane according to the contract that they signed.

------

Target has neat little signs that say "Expect more. Pay Less."

Without contract compliance, that is what management thinks of YOU.

 

[Inconceivable]

Absolutely. But we have to pick and choose which battles we fight.

I think I just heard Chesty roll over in his grave.

 

[mrflier]

"BTW, Caveman, are you a commuter?"

I am not but I have been in the past. Frankly, that's a red herring. I don't have to be a commuter to have an opinion on this.

I agree, you don't have to be a commuter, but I do think one's perspective does change (especially after you get left behind a few times).

I answered your questions, please answer mine. Would either of you (mcpickle or mrflier) agree to deadhead in the actual jumpseat to help get an OAL pilot or nonrev a seat in the back? If so, how is that any different than doing the same for a revenue pax?

I absolutely would sit in the front (and I have done this several times) to help out another offline jumpseater or other non-rev employee. I believe I am consistent in that I view jumpseating (whether on- or offline) and non-rev travel as an industry benefit and not another cost-saving vehicle to be used by air carriers. (But I have to admit, you do make a good point.)

 

[Caveman]

Inconceivable,

You make some great points and a very compelling argument. You've at least made me reconsider, but, for now, I'll still offer to ride the jumpseat to help get anybody a seat in back. I'd rather not let ego and pride get in the way of helping another human being. Even if it means 'the man' got one over on me. I'll sleep better at night.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Inconceivable,

You make some great points and a very compelling argument. You've at least made me reconsider, but, for now, I'll still offer to ride the jumpseat to help get anybody a seat in back. I'd rather not let ego and pride get in the way of helping another human being. Even if it means 'the man' got one over on me. I'll sleep better at night.

Caveman,

I've got to translate your post for my fellow pilots:

You'd rather not let the company making a buck get in the way of helping a fellow pilot.

The duty, honor, country does not transfer to capitalism. It works well on the battlefield, however, if pilots are serve with duty, honor and country then so must the companies that employ them.

If the company wants to make the most money, then it can, staff effeciently, deadhead earlier or buy the seat from themselves.

Again, the company has not instructed you or are they counting on you to make these kinds of decisions. If they were, you'd know it.

The Capt owns and controls the jumpseat. End of story. Otherwise, your supervisor will be directing you the Capt to take an off line pilot in your jumpseat. All under the premise of "you don't want to cancel a flight do you?"

Finally, I see it is your ego that you're looking out for..... So you can pat yourself on the back, taking the high road, which in this case is the road of the almighty dollar.

Submitted respectfully....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

PCL and Lear-

Thanks for clarifying that.. Thankfully I haven't had the situation yet. I feel terrible on the rare occasions that I have to leave guys behind.

 

[Caveman]

(post deleted)

Nevermind.....

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. These conversations always eventually degenerate into pissing contests. Rez, you almost sucked me in. I'll pass.

Adios....

 

[pianoman]

Counterpoint: What if you take the the j/s and bumping the commuter because you wanted to get a passenger on caused that pilot to mistrip? Now have you stranded 50 more pax?

Bottom line- companies need to figure out how to DH people AND manage revenue.

 

[Rook]

Had this dilemma a couple of months ago. Deadhead from BGR-DTW. When we checked in heard that the flight was oversold so I told the Comair (hey Cave!) ground personnel I would volunteer to ride the jumpseat to help them out...if it was ok with the Captain of the flight. He didn't mind and the Comair CSA's were thankful. Now keep in mind we didn't have anyone trying to jumpseat to DTW that day. I did ask the Captain if it was ok and he said yes. Just trying to help and it worked out that day. If given the choice to take a jumspseater over a paying pax, it's a tough call. Maybe the JS'er is a friend of mine. Maybe the pax is on their way to a funeral. It's a tough call but the bottom line is that the pax deserves the cabin seat. Commuters choose to commute. And being a former 2-leg commuter I've missed my share of commutes home. But what happens if the CA refuses to give a deadheading pilot the j/s? Does he get reprimanded for not being a 'team player?'

 

[Rook]

Bottom line- companies need to figure out how to DH people AND manage revenue.

Bingo!

 

[mckpickle]

Had this dilemma a couple of months ago. Deadhead from BGR-DTW. When we checked in heard that the flight was oversold so I told the Comair (hey Cave!) ground personnel I would volunteer to ride the jumpseat to help them out...if it was ok with the Captain of the flight. He didn't mind and the Comair CSA's were thankful. Now keep in mind we didn't have anyone trying to jumpseat to DTW that day. I did ask the Captain if it was ok and he said yes. Just trying to help and it worked out that day. If given the choice to take a jumspseater over a paying pax, it's a tough call. Maybe the JS'er is a friend of mine. Maybe the pax is on their way to a funeral. It's a tough call but the bottom line is that the pax deserves the cabin seat. Commuters choose to commute. And being a former 2-leg commuter I've missed my share of commutes home. But what happens if the CA refuses to give a deadheading pilot the j/s? Does he get reprimanded for not being a 'team player?'

It's great that you helped out as I encourage everyone to do IF THERE ARE NO JUMPSEATERS!

The bottom line is it is the captains jumpseat. At XJT gate agents try to pull this all the time. if the captain finds out about it he talks to the agent and tells them under no circumstance will a possitive spaced deadheader ride in the cockpit while a jumpseater stays behind. And if it does happen I get a phone call and the station hears about it.

It's a 50 seat a/c, not a 51 seat a/c. Revenue management is not our problem, neither is moving people to training or to assignments. No one at our company would be reprimanded for refusing a deadheader in the JS. And they would have the full support of the union behind them.

Man, I honestly can't believe some of you guys!