Critter717
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To the AirTran Guys.....
- Thread starter Critter717
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Lear70
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They're uploading everything to the NPA site now.
The full C.O. (Company Offer - they're no longer calling it a T.A.) will likely not be available until later in the day.
There will be links in the email you get that have a "differences table" that they've prepared. You know how I feel about their "prepared tables", I personally think they should spin around if you click and drag them to represent what you're reading, but we'll see if they put out all the facts with them.
When they have the new C.O. (T.A., whatever) out for reading, I'll break down the changes and update the rebuttal in the link below this post in my sig.
The full C.O. (Company Offer - they're no longer calling it a T.A.) will likely not be available until later in the day.
There will be links in the email you get that have a "differences table" that they've prepared. You know how I feel about their "prepared tables", I personally think they should spin around if you click and drag them to represent what you're reading, but we'll see if they put out all the facts with them.
When they have the new C.O. (T.A., whatever) out for reading, I'll break down the changes and update the rebuttal in the link below this post in my sig.
Stewie
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Hey Lear, any idea on why they are letting us vote on this "C.O." without even seeing or hearing about the details of it? I got my stuff in the mail and immediately cast my Yes,Yes,No but thought it was interesting that I was voting on something I havn't seen. I can only assume it is moot because they are recommending a NO vote anyway.
Lear70
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Well, I'm guessing it's because it's not legal to pass it without it being a Tentative Agreement per the RLA.
You could get a 100% Yes vote and, without it being endorsed by the BoD as a T.A., you couldn't pass it.
My guess is it was done to just "get it over with", although I had *heard* a rumor that AP would resign if he couldn't get a T.A. passed. Would certainly be the "graceful" way to exit the building and return to the line.
My issue is with whom do we replace them with? The President's post will have to be replaced, the V.P. spot will likely go unfilled until the Nov election.
I was leaning away from getting involved at that level but it depends on how the candidates who come forward present their agendas and beliefs...
The next 30-45 days will definitely be interesting.
You could get a 100% Yes vote and, without it being endorsed by the BoD as a T.A., you couldn't pass it.
My guess is it was done to just "get it over with", although I had *heard* a rumor that AP would resign if he couldn't get a T.A. passed. Would certainly be the "graceful" way to exit the building and return to the line.
My issue is with whom do we replace them with? The President's post will have to be replaced, the V.P. spot will likely go unfilled until the Nov election.
I was leaning away from getting involved at that level but it depends on how the candidates who come forward present their agendas and beliefs...
The next 30-45 days will definitely be interesting.
Lear70
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I like the way you think... :beer:
gearup5
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Lear70
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T.A. changes - initial differences (I haven't had time to go over the full document yet). Everywhere you see a * is where they NEGLECTED TO MENTION things that are still concessionary that exist in the new C.O.
Section 0: Definitions. Still missing several key definitions that were contentious in negotiations. *
Section 1: Scope. Still allows 79-86 seat RJ's, with a cap of 25 as a hard number for 79-86 seaters instead of ASM tied.
- Less than 79 seats are still tied to ASM's which makes this section still a concession. *
- Turboprops still unlimited. *
- 100-seat jet rates and references removed.
- Successorship and Merger still did not bind AirTran Holdings. *
Section 2:
- Loss of Window/Aisle seat still exists. *
- Still no guarantee of jumpseat fee waiving remaining permanent. *
Section 3: no changes
Section 4: Compensation
- Core block still exists, option to opt-out at end of 1st year.
- Loss of door close still exists *
- 100 seat jet pay rates removed.
- Pay cut to $38.50 for new hires still exists *
- 737-800 still re-classified as a SNB aircraft *
- 4.5 Average Day still exists. *
Section 5: Scheduling
- LVI definition minor modification, has no impact from previous T.A.
- Removed MDO's
- Gained 12 days off hard for reserve pilots but lost 5 hours of pay off guarantee to do it.
- Regular lineholder can drop below guarantee in SAP if they put a request in for it.
- Reserve pilots can now be released by using CrewTrac/FLICA instead of having to call in.
- Modified "crew scheduling approval" language to mean FLICA allowance = crew scheduling approval.
- Fixed loophole to check for min days required off if extended into day off.
- TR changed to allow for only 2 moves to short-call during the month. Still insufficient protection to actually have Tactical Reserve lines in the final line assignments.
- CA's can refuse right-seat assignments.
- New language allows them to move certain dates in the timeline of the monthly bid process. * Undisclosed change from either the proposed T.A. or the new C.O.
- They mention a new "coverage check" for daily open time swaps. I'm having a hard time finding it without a printed copy - too much to scroll through 200 pages of e-document. Will try to figure it out later.
Section 6-11: no major changes I could see initially.
Section 12: Insurance
- Change to Platinum PPO - pilots already enrolled are grandfathered and can keep it indefinitely. No one else can enroll in it, however. Ever.
- Platinum PPO rates can go up 17.5% per year. Higher increases than anyone else. New restriction.
Section 13 and 14 - no major changes
Section 15: Retirement
- Under the original T.A., pilots who retired medically before age 60 would only be elligible for company rates for one year, then would go to COBRA. Under new C.O., these pilots keep company rates until elligible for medicare.
- If age 65 passes, this agreement for medical retirees goes away. If it doesn't pass, it will still go away unless the company and NPA can negotiate for it to remain this way.
More to follow...
Section 0: Definitions. Still missing several key definitions that were contentious in negotiations. *
Section 1: Scope. Still allows 79-86 seat RJ's, with a cap of 25 as a hard number for 79-86 seaters instead of ASM tied.
- Less than 79 seats are still tied to ASM's which makes this section still a concession. *
- Turboprops still unlimited. *
- 100-seat jet rates and references removed.
- Successorship and Merger still did not bind AirTran Holdings. *
Section 2:
- Loss of Window/Aisle seat still exists. *
- Still no guarantee of jumpseat fee waiving remaining permanent. *
Section 3: no changes
Section 4: Compensation
- Core block still exists, option to opt-out at end of 1st year.
- Loss of door close still exists *
- 100 seat jet pay rates removed.
- Pay cut to $38.50 for new hires still exists *
- 737-800 still re-classified as a SNB aircraft *
- 4.5 Average Day still exists. *
Section 5: Scheduling
- LVI definition minor modification, has no impact from previous T.A.
- Removed MDO's
- Gained 12 days off hard for reserve pilots but lost 5 hours of pay off guarantee to do it.
- Regular lineholder can drop below guarantee in SAP if they put a request in for it.
- Reserve pilots can now be released by using CrewTrac/FLICA instead of having to call in.
- Modified "crew scheduling approval" language to mean FLICA allowance = crew scheduling approval.
- Fixed loophole to check for min days required off if extended into day off.
- TR changed to allow for only 2 moves to short-call during the month. Still insufficient protection to actually have Tactical Reserve lines in the final line assignments.
- CA's can refuse right-seat assignments.
- New language allows them to move certain dates in the timeline of the monthly bid process. * Undisclosed change from either the proposed T.A. or the new C.O.
- They mention a new "coverage check" for daily open time swaps. I'm having a hard time finding it without a printed copy - too much to scroll through 200 pages of e-document. Will try to figure it out later.
Section 6-11: no major changes I could see initially.
Section 12: Insurance
- Change to Platinum PPO - pilots already enrolled are grandfathered and can keep it indefinitely. No one else can enroll in it, however. Ever.
- Platinum PPO rates can go up 17.5% per year. Higher increases than anyone else. New restriction.
Section 13 and 14 - no major changes
Section 15: Retirement
- Under the original T.A., pilots who retired medically before age 60 would only be elligible for company rates for one year, then would go to COBRA. Under new C.O., these pilots keep company rates until elligible for medicare.
- If age 65 passes, this agreement for medical retirees goes away. If it doesn't pass, it will still go away unless the company and NPA can negotiate for it to remain this way.
More to follow...
Lear70
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- 7,487
All the other negative items in there from the rebuttal are still in the new T.A. There's just too many to relist, and no real reason to, as it should die on its own, especially with a NO vote from the BoD.
I will say one thing about Section 15. For us to give up core block, door close, min day, etc which hurts the VAST MAJORITY of the pilots and yet spend so much negotiating capital on something like medical retirees (which is maybe 1% of the pilot group) seems a little odd to me.
Did anyone else pick up on that?
Not that I think we should have ever given that up. Quite the opposite, just one of those things that make you go hmmm....
Shouldn't change anyone's No vote though, especially with no black helicopter threats looming.
I will say one thing about Section 15. For us to give up core block, door close, min day, etc which hurts the VAST MAJORITY of the pilots and yet spend so much negotiating capital on something like medical retirees (which is maybe 1% of the pilot group) seems a little odd to me.
Did anyone else pick up on that?
Not that I think we should have ever given that up. Quite the opposite, just one of those things that make you go hmmm....
Shouldn't change anyone's No vote though, especially with no black helicopter threats looming.
Critter717
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- Oct 20, 2003
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- 69
There will be no changes until the guys that have had a strangle hold on NPA leadership are ALL handed their hats.
We have a very deep bench, provided that guys are still willing to participate in union work.
People who have no business in or around the NPA office in ANY CAPACITY:
Skipper Hyle
Brad Dunlap
Laura Backus
Noel Poirier
Chad Korb
David Asche
Dave Peck
Sean Sullivan
Allen Philpot
Dave Sabby
Mike Surapine
Nothing will change until these over achievers are kept at arms length.
A completely fresh start is the answer. There is a huge amount of cash flowing into the NPA. We deserve Fair, Firm and Focused leadership.
There is no coincidence that we will continue to "take care of the boys" until a truly independent leadership is elected.
We have a very deep bench, provided that guys are still willing to participate in union work.
People who have no business in or around the NPA office in ANY CAPACITY:
Skipper Hyle
Brad Dunlap
Laura Backus
Noel Poirier
Chad Korb
David Asche
Dave Peck
Sean Sullivan
Allen Philpot
Dave Sabby
Mike Surapine
Nothing will change until these over achievers are kept at arms length.
A completely fresh start is the answer. There is a huge amount of cash flowing into the NPA. We deserve Fair, Firm and Focused leadership.
There is no coincidence that we will continue to "take care of the boys" until a truly independent leadership is elected.
Fly-By-Cable
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Yuppyguppy
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Lear70
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Voting now extended until September 5th, due to the company not having "their package" completely signed and back to the NPA.
The changes they DID send back are all negative:
Removed definition of Tactical Reserve - now it's undefined except for the rules in Sec 5.
Door close re-defined as the LAST time the door closes, so if you close the door, have a ground stop, re-open the door to let them off, you don't get paid and the next time you close the door you still have the up to 5 min loss.
If they break LVI quarterly or yearly, they now only have to pay the pilots affected, not the whole pilot group. A substantial reduction in penalty for them running short-staffed.
Just 3 more reasons to vote NO.
No need for more money spent on stickers that say the same thing...
NO to the T.A.
NO to the NPA Leadership (and Yes to recall).
NO to the Company. No, you can't shove a concessionary contract down our throats. No, we won't sit back and take it. No, we're not going to "tweak" anything else.
Spread the word, ladies and gentlemen. Tell your CA's, your F/O's, your classmates in recurrent, your coworkers in the lounge: we're not gonna burn it down, but it's gonna get awfully hot while we turn up the HEAT...
The changes they DID send back are all negative:
Removed definition of Tactical Reserve - now it's undefined except for the rules in Sec 5.
Door close re-defined as the LAST time the door closes, so if you close the door, have a ground stop, re-open the door to let them off, you don't get paid and the next time you close the door you still have the up to 5 min loss.
If they break LVI quarterly or yearly, they now only have to pay the pilots affected, not the whole pilot group. A substantial reduction in penalty for them running short-staffed.
Just 3 more reasons to vote NO.
No need for more money spent on stickers that say the same thing...
NO to the T.A.
NO to the NPA Leadership (and Yes to recall).
NO to the Company. No, you can't shove a concessionary contract down our throats. No, we won't sit back and take it. No, we're not going to "tweak" anything else.
Spread the word, ladies and gentlemen. Tell your CA's, your F/O's, your classmates in recurrent, your coworkers in the lounge: we're not gonna burn it down, but it's gonna get awfully hot while we turn up the HEAT...
Lear70
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Once the wheels move, the time begins and it's considered "block out". So you'd get paid under that circumstance for a gate return.
If you never left the gate and got a hold with the door closed ready to push or took a lengthy delay for a maintenance item before you actually started moving, and subsequently opened the door, even just for paperwork, you reset your time.
It's all moot; we're going to kill it anyway, but just one more thing to keep in the back of your head for the ways management keeps trying to hose you.
That's what has me upset: the complete lack of respect for their employees to try to get concessions in major areas when the company is at its most profitable and only getting better. Yes, our UNION should never have allowed it, and that's why we're recalling them, but the company shouldn't have even pushed that hard. Bad things happen when you try to hose your employees...
Simply unacceptable.
If you never left the gate and got a hold with the door closed ready to push or took a lengthy delay for a maintenance item before you actually started moving, and subsequently opened the door, even just for paperwork, you reset your time.
It's all moot; we're going to kill it anyway, but just one more thing to keep in the back of your head for the ways management keeps trying to hose you.
That's what has me upset: the complete lack of respect for their employees to try to get concessions in major areas when the company is at its most profitable and only getting better. Yes, our UNION should never have allowed it, and that's why we're recalling them, but the company shouldn't have even pushed that hard. Bad things happen when you try to hose your employees...
Simply unacceptable.
Last edited:
CatfishVT9
Anti-Democrat
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- Jan 22, 2004
- Posts
- 466
If you want to know more about how the "average day" works, just get a FA to show you their schedule. I really wanted to believe that the new rigs on the TA would help get more flight time with less hours away from home and the 717 pairings they ran as a test appeared to support that view.
Tonight I had dinner with my FO and 2 FAs and we started talking about the avg day issue and one of the FAs had her trip sheet with her. Lo and behold, day 1 was about 7 hours, day 2 and 3 were both 1 leg and day 4 was about 7 hours. Total credit less than 19 hours. That sealed it once and for all for me. All the talk about "a 13 hour duty day will allow the company to fly us more" is BS! FAs can be scheduled 14 hours so us giving in to 13 won't do nuthin' for improving trips.
This is a much bigger issue than core or door close. Average day will be HOURS lost, not minutes.
BUH-By.....
Tonight I had dinner with my FO and 2 FAs and we started talking about the avg day issue and one of the FAs had her trip sheet with her. Lo and behold, day 1 was about 7 hours, day 2 and 3 were both 1 leg and day 4 was about 7 hours. Total credit less than 19 hours. That sealed it once and for all for me. All the talk about "a 13 hour duty day will allow the company to fly us more" is BS! FAs can be scheduled 14 hours so us giving in to 13 won't do nuthin' for improving trips.
This is a much bigger issue than core or door close. Average day will be HOURS lost, not minutes.
BUH-By.....
DASHDRIVER
Uber User
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 265
I can not believe Joe's audacity. The increase in offer to YX's buyout [lan would have paid for most of the increases your pilots are asking for. Then to plead "we" can't afford it. 41m profit in one quarter and your FO's aren't worth industry average pay scales, discusting. Go get'em guys.
DD
DD
newnan
base housing
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