To Strike or Not to Strike at ASA

[HoserASA]

What does that mean? What are we asking for as far as QOL goes?

Now tell me this dude ain't mgt! Or, if you are an ASA pilot, are you really that ignorant about what your fellow pilots want as far as QOL issues?

Hoser

 

[puddlejumper101]

my vote = yes

I don't want a strike, i think it would be bad...in fact, I don't think it will get to that point...but I feel better knowing the MEC has the power to strike if it came to it. I don't know the negotiating guys very well...but they have been there through the whole damn process, this might be the best tool they can have to get management to take them seriously. If management knows that a strike will occur if they don't wrap this up then its a good situation for all of us...including management. It kinda sucks to hear senior guys here boasting about their 85,000 a year salary thinking nothing will change if management just gives us what they want. I would think the more senior a Captain is here, the more interested he would be in his QOL, and his company. Thats the scariest thing about all of this...the indifference by the senior guys. To the 15 year guy...what does he care that first year FOs are making 19.02 an hour in 2006. That's sad...in most companies the senior guys are the backbone of the union and the company...here at ASA the senior guys could care less as long as they get their paycheck, not realizing that their pay and QOL can go down the crapper if management instills its useless contract. This affects everyone from #1 to #1800...I feel better knowing that I gave the MEC the power to strike rather than sitting on a 10% pay cut with Mesa-like work rules.

 

[Crash Pad]

Now tell me this dude ain't mgt! Or, if you are an ASA pilot, are you really that ignorant about what your fellow pilots want as far as QOL issues?

Hoser

Let me explain. I'm a pilot who doesn't work. Last year maybe 500 hours. This year... only a month in 8 hours 58 min. I don't hang around with my fellow pilots all that much. Right now I have a full time job that I don't have to work at so I guess my QOL is OK... I'm still upset about the almost 9 hours I put in last month. Now until they change the rules and I can get paid 77 hours for 9 hours of work. One thing will ruin my lifestyle and that would be airport reserve and I know you senior guys will trade that right away... what do you care you won't be sitting there.

 

[Crash Pad]

Not if it make the company more efficient by forcing them to use some common sense in how we are scheduled. Those 30+ hour layovers and 3 hour "airport appreciation" breaks in the middle of the day would hopefully disappear with trip and duty rigs, and if they don't, well, the company deserves the costs associated with them.

First as a semi alcoholic... but only on trips because I'm married... please don't get rid of my 30 hour bender in Macon or I saw next month they have one in NYC...
On a serious note I've heard this efficincy thing before. ASA now pays full deadhead and I haven't heard of a reduction in deadhead. So in reality you will still have a 3 hour sit you will just be getting paid for it. That's why I say it is a round about raise. I'm also guessing enterprising pilots will find a way to turn those rules into 120 hour months... I know I will. That being said bring on the trip and duty stuff. But if you think it will reduce 3 hour sits or long layovers I'm thinking you may be wrong.

 

[IFLYASA]

Actually sweptback I have talked to members of the MEC and CNC. Most of them I believe are fairly reasonable. There are a few that worry me however.

If what you are saying is true, why doesn't ALPA publish what we are asking for? They have already given the proposals to managment, so why the big secret. Simply publish what exactly we are asking for and many of us fence sitters will have an easier time checking the YES box. Publish the proposals and put this to rest.

If for example, we want 68$/hr for a 7 year 50 Cpt, then we will have to ask for well over 70$+/hr. We have to play the "meet in the middle" game. If they published 70$+, they would say we are asking to much. If we asked 68$/hr, we would obviously get less.

 

[601Pilot]

I vote yes and I do not have a problem taking ASA down, if that's what management decides to do. The ball is in there court, our CNC can only do so much.

 

[shamrock]

ASA now pays full deadhead and I haven't heard of a reduction in deadhead.

The company's proposal was no premium and 50% deadhead pay.

That being said bring on the trip and duty stuff. But if you think it will reduce 3 hour sits or long layovers I'm thinking you may be wrong.

I probably am wrong because the company really doesn't seem to care about taking simple steps to save money. They would rather have complete control with no accountability than an efficient airline. All I was pointing out was that trip and duty rigs would be an incentive for the company to shape up and if they continued to schedule long layovers and 3 hour breaks they would have nobody but themselves to blame for the costs.

Right now I have a full time job that I don't have to work at so I guess my QOL is OK... I'm still upset about the almost 9 hours I put in last month.

Well aren't you a fortunate son of a gun. You got on when the company was hiring a lot of new people and are enjoying the fact that ASA is overstaffed right now. Good for you.

One thing will ruin my lifestyle and that would be airport reserve and I know you senior guys will trade that right away...

...just as you are willing to trade away QOL issues for a quick upgrade.

That's why I say it is a round about raise.

How about this. Since you seem to be so against anything that remotely resembles a raise you won't get one. Will that work for you?

I have to agree with Hoser, you sound like management. I can respect (if not agree with) someone with clear reasons for being against a strike but you seem to be against anything that could be seen as an improvement if it gets in the way of your upgrade. You won't have 9 hour months forever, these issues won't magically disappear when you upgrade, and looking at this job as simply a stepping stone where you spend a couple years before moving on is very naive.

 

[shamrock]

Sure that year or two we could look at everyone and say "we raised the bar" then the in a year or two we are applying at MESA, CHQ or Comair.

Uh, no, no, and no on that one, Chief.

If ASA goes away then I'm done with the regionals.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt.

 

[Texx]

Let me explain. I'm a pilot who doesn't work. Last year maybe 500 hours. This year... only a month in 8 hours 58 min. I don't hang around with my fellow pilots all that much. Right now I have a full time job that I don't have to work at so I guess my QOL is OK... I'm still upset about the almost 9 hours I put in last month. Now until they change the rules and I can get paid 77 hours for 9 hours of work. One thing will ruin my lifestyle and that would be airport reserve and I know you senior guys will trade that right away... what do you care you won't be sitting there.

Actually it's the senior guys that will protect you more than anyone else.

What would they trade off? Some of the jr. guys on this board are willing to take what the company has on the table. That is 70 seat pay cuts. It won't hurt them because most of them are on the 50 seat. So who is giving up?

The last contract all pilots pulled in the same direction. But now we have pilots such as yourself worried about yourself instead of being a group. I think this was part of the problem with CMR LOA.

 

[av8tor4239]

I'm in for a yes. I truly hope each of us will vote yes. If we take a strike vote and don't get an overwhelming majority yes vote, we are simply cutting our CNC off at the knees.

If it comes down to it and we strike, we're done. One way or another. We may strike and get some gloriuos contract to get things back going but, soon will see most or all of our work going somewhere else. My sincere hope is that our CNC will have common sense in what they try to achieve on this contract. I don't believe Skywest will allow it to go to a strike. They will settle for whatever first and then take it back piece by piece.

All I ask is to clean up QOL issues and keep pay at or near current levels. Better times are ahead and any lost ground can be made up then.

What planet did you come off of... You have been so anti labor on this board, and all of a sudden you want to support the negotiations..

Either somone else has logged on your flightinfo account, or you have finally pulled yourself out of the giant pitcher of Koolaid you were swimming in!

Welcome to the team...

 

[JoeMerchant]

It doesn't matter how you vote. You have elected your reps and they will make the choice on which direction to go.

I really don't want ALPA making any decisions for me anymore. Their bargaining strength has been pi$$ed away because of bad decisions and lack of long range strategic planning. There are two choices now folks
1. Eliminate pay to play,

or

2. Participate in pay to play, ie. compete.

Drawing this mythical line in the sand while our $400,000 per year ALPA president tells us not to participate, all the while letting someone else come in to take away our flying, is not a solution, nor is it leadership.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Don’t forget management’s job is to scare the pilots into thinking that the sky is falling. They will promise you growth and aircraft if you are the lowest paid and the hardest worked. Look at those airplanes that Comair never received after voting for a pay freeze.

Don't forget it is ALPA's job to ignore the falling sky and appoint a new committee to figure out what to do about these things hitting us in the head and to educate us about the fact that it isn't really the sky that is falling. ALPA wouldn't mislead us now would they?

 

[ohplease!]

What planet did you come off of... You have been so anti labor on this board, and all of a sudden you want to support the negotiations..

Either somone else has logged on your flightinfo account, or you have finally pulled yourself out of the giant pitcher of Koolaid you were swimming in!

Welcome to the team...

I am neither anti labor nor anti company. I have never not supported ALPA here. I have questioned ALPA. I have disagreed with some of their positions. You are simply too near sighted to see the difference. You are so "out there" with all this sh!t that you can't stand for someone to not agree with your idiotic view. The only thing you can do if someone doesn't fall in step with you is claim they are "company" or a chief pilot or a "koolaide" drinker or whatever dumbass thing you can come up with.

I'm not on your team, I am on my team. Stick that sh!it up your A$$. dork.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wait till the quaterly earning reports come out. That should be pretty intersting if ASA is making a lot of money, yet is still banging the no net gain crap!

Two things to remember about these "numbers".

1. The only reason we make money is because Delta pays us to fly these routes. If they don't pay us to fly these routes, we don't make any money. Don't kid yourself, the 50 seater is not a money maker in this environment.
Skywest Inc. relies on income from two legacy carriers that are in bad shape.

2. The important number to watch is profit margin, not total profit. ASA's profit margin is about 60% less than it was during the last contract negotiations. Profit margins in the "pay to play" business are shrinking fast.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Due to the nature of negotiations, ALPA can't publish their proposal. Doing so would compromise their negotiating position. Find me an airline that has ever published their proposal... you won't find one.

This is incorrect information. We published our exact proposal during the last negotiations. After the first TA was shot down, we published the exact proposal that we went back to the table with. This is yet another example of bad information out there.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Someone please answer my question and I'll climb on for the big win. ACA, Coex, Comair, Airwis... all good contracts all got there balls kicked in. I want someone to reasonably tell me why walking down there road is the way to go.

I also want to know about the QOL stuff. I always here "we don't want money we want QOL stuff"... I'm guessing we will get airport reserve in this next contract I don't know what we're trading for it but I'm guessing that will not help the QOL of some pilots.
Duty rigs? trip rigs?... Yeah I guess that is QOL it is also a round about way of asking for more money.
Commuter clause? Sure helps some QOL but also is a round about way of asking to staff more reserves which means more money for pilots.

I want an honest discussion about my above concerns. I'm willing to vote yes I just want somebody to tell me why I shouldn't worry about the above. In my world as an FO there is only one pay raise that is going to significantly improve my life and that is the upgrade to captain. Even a 5 dollar an hour raise on FO pay... which we won't get... will make minimal impact. Tell me if getting a new better contract will help me get that PIC column rolling. I'm young and still see a future beyond a regional. Show me how a strike gets me in the left seat and I'm onboard.

These are very good questions. Keep asking them.

Your right about ACA, Coex, Air Wisc, and Comair contracts. They weren't signed in a vacuum and they had consequences. Don't forget ALG, PDT, and CC Air - also victims of the "pay to play" fee-for-departure portfolio concept. For that matter, United, USAir, American, Northwest, and Delta are victims of the same fate. You can be replaced and you can price yourselves out of a job, especially in this environment.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The flip side of this is that we keep the status quo or give things back(premium, deadhead pay) which, to me, is the same as getting our balls kicked in anyway.

ALPA's balls have already been kicked in - if you haven't noticed then you aren't paying attention. Everyone is on their own now - ALPA can't save you anymore. You might want to invest in a cup and a jock strap, as it will afford you more protection and is cheaper than ALPA.

 

[Texx]

I really don't want ALPA making any decisions for me anymore. Their bargaining strength has been pi$$ed away because of bad decisions and lack of long range strategic planning. There are two choices now folks
1. Eliminate pay to play,

or

2. Participate in pay to play, ie. compete.

Drawing this mythical line in the sand while our $400,000 per year ALPA president tells us not to participate, all the while letting someone else come in to take away our flying, is not a solution, nor is it leadership.

If your feelings for ALPA are this strong then why are you ASA/ALPA LEC 112 Sec Treas?

 

[spinproof]

ALPA's balls have already been kicked in - if you haven't noticed then you aren't paying attention. Everyone is on their own now - ALPA can't save you anymore. You might want to invest in a cup and a jock strap, as it will afford you more protection and is cheaper than ALPA.

Absolutely!

All you have to do is look at what was said by Freddie "B" before the last POS was voted on at Comair..words to the effect.."...we will have to take the FA's to court because the IBT is harder to deal with than ALPA..." If that doesn't tell you all you need to know then I don't know what would...the fix has always been in!

ASA pilots are ALL ALONE. Do what you think is right for YOU! Everyone else has!

 

[Crash Pad]

Ok I'm onboard with a strike vote. At my previous airline we took three of em... they still haven't gone on strike so I'm pretty confident it is an administrative move.

What I was trying to say was if you don't like 3 hr sits or 30 hour overnights... write in the contract "No scheduled 3 hr sits or 30 hour layovers"... See that is how you get it without throwing in a round about raise... Union hacks cover a duty and trip rig with banter about giving the company incentive blah blah blah.

About ALPA. I question alpa, I don't trust alpa, and I think the crew that runs ALPA is a bunch of former pilots. Pilots in my opinion are very good at flying airplanes. I'll leave it at that.

Now I hear people on this board explain to me that I'm on the company kool-aid. Here is what the company tells me. "It is a competative world out there and we can't afford to give you anything because if we do mesa will take our lunch"

Here is what ALPA tells me. "ASA is making so much f!cking money they wipe there as$es with 20 dollar bills at the GO" or "ASA could save billions if they used crews more efficiently" or "we are only asking for QOL stuff. The improvements wouldn't cost a thing. Management is just dragging this out because they hate pilots."

With these two vastly different opinions I'm forced to do some research. When I do I stumble across ACA, Airwis, Comair, Coex, Mesaba, the list goes on... who all seem to be alot worse off despite having good contracts in the past. I then stumble across UAL, DAL, NWA, USAir... bankrupt yet all there regionals "are making soooo much money". I draw the conclusion that maybe just maybe the Union might be shading the truth more than the company.

 

[Crash Pad]

I have an idea. Negotiate a first year FO pay cut. Make first year FO 5 dollars an hour... yes you read that right. First of all you won't have to worry about a staffing shortage because they would keep FO's around like extra printer paper.

Two problems solved. Pay that low will reduce the pilot pool to nothing. The company would be forced to give the FO's a raise just to fill the classes... That raise wouldn't have to be negotiated.

If the FO's keep coming at $5 an hour then you know the profession is doomed. Benefit number 2. If we concede $14 on first year FO pay we should be able to get some big ticket items we want.

Benefit number 3. Even mesa couldn't underbid our growth... whamo I still get to have a future... Think about it once you get past the initial rediculousnis it will strike you as a rather good idea.

 

[79%N1]

Their bargaining strength has been pi$$ed away because of bad decisions and lack of long range strategic planning. There are two choices now folks
1. Eliminate pay to play,

or

2. Participate in pay to play, ie. compete.

Drawing this mythical line in the sand while our $400,000 per year ALPA president tells us not to participate, all the while letting someone else come in to take away our flying, is not a solution, nor is it leadership.

BINGO!

Guys, these are things I have been saying we need to look at. If you are a somewhat Senior Captain, holding a line with good days off, etc...then you don't really need to care about these issues - yet! But what good does it do to get $110/hr on the 700 when nobody else makes more than $90 now? I'll tell you, none! Because JA will just start moving those 700's over to SKYW, or Delta will award them to CHQ, or Mesa, or Pinnacle, or COex, etc....
The rest of us are now in a fight, and it is NOT management koolaid to think like this. We need to fight the pay to play, not each other, but right now, that is how it goes. When you look at ASA, management has made a tremendous amount of cost-cutting moves. If we can work with them now, and not against them as our MEC seems to want to do (because It is so personal with some like BA) then maybe we can move forward toward more prosperity.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Absolutely!

All you have to do is look at what was said by Freddie "B" before the last POS was voted on at Comair..words to the effect.."...we will have to take the FA's to court because the IBT is harder to deal with than ALPA..." If that doesn't tell you all you need to know then I don't know what would...the fix has always been in!

ASA pilots are ALL ALONE. Do what you think is right for YOU! Everyone else has!

The sad thing spinproof is that this didn't happen overnight. It has been happening slowly for years and ALPA ignored it to the point of losing all bargaining power. There were ASA, CMR, EGL, ALG, and PDT ALPA MEC members who warned about this impending train wreck years ago - yet it was dismissed as just "regional trouble makers".

Your right that we are all alone as you and your fellow CMR pilots have been left in the wind to hang since 2001. Of all the concessionary agreements signed since 2001, yours was the CLOSEST NO VOTE OF ALL, yet everyone is blaiming the CMR pilots. If more groups had acted like your group over the years, we might not be in this position now.

During your strike, we flew CMR aircraft with CMR passengers here at ASA. Our wonderful union said that "wasn't struck work, so it was OK". I did my part picketing with you guys and giving every airplane I flew a C check preflight. None of that matters when management can just move flying over to another subsidiary - that was the begining of the end for ALPA.

I've lost the fight in me - it just isn't wo[e]rth it anymore.

 

[JoeMerchant]

BINGO!

Guys, these are things I have been saying we need to look at. If you are a somewhat Senior Captain, holding a line with good days off, etc...then you don't really need to care about these issues - yet! But what good does it do to get $110/hr on the 700 when nobody else makes more than $90 now? I'll tell you, none! Because JA will just start moving those 700's over to SKYW, or Delta will award them to CHQ, or Mesa, or Pinnacle, or COex, etc....
The rest of us are now in a fight, and it is NOT management koolaid to think like this. We need to fight the pay to play, not each other, but right now, that is how it goes. When you look at ASA, management has made a tremendous amount of cost-cutting moves. If we can work with them now, and not against them as our MEC seems to want to do (because It is so personal with some like BA) then maybe we can move forward toward more prosperity.

79%N1, you are right. Please let your status reps. know how you feel. They don't listen to me anymore - they need to hear it from you and the others that I have spoken with who feel the same. I believe there are quite a few who feel the same as you.

It is healthy to question authority. Don't blindly follow either side.

 

[shamrock]

Benefit number 2. If we concede $14 on first year FO pay we should be able to get some big ticket items we want.

This coming from someone who was complaining earlier about the senior guys selling him out. Guess it's only wrong if someone else does it.

And wouldn't those "big ticket items" be the kind of "round about raise" you are so against?

 

[Crash Pad]

I don't think they will be able to find pilots at $5.00 an hour... Capitalism jumps in at that point. Secondly lets talk about being sold out. The difference between 19 and 5 is how much debt you accrue in a year. You all sent a clear message. If you are a junior FO you are a subpar, and unqualified to be in the cockpit so we refuse to pay you. You still send that message when one captain with no violations, can walk into the crewroom and talk to another captain on the same equipment with a violation who is making more money because he has been here longer.

Big ticket item for me is a rairse. Except I say it like this. Pay me more an hour. I don't say it like this. Raise per diem after all cost of living, Give me a trip and duty rig to make them more effiecient, Put in a commuter clause because pilots need to be able to live in Pakistan when they work in Atlanta

 

[atrdriver]

BINGO!

When you look at ASA, management has made a tremendous amount of cost-cutting moves. If we can work with them now, and not against them as our MEC seems to want to do (because It is so personal with some like BA) then maybe we can move forward toward more prosperity.

What are some of these tremendous cost cutting moves? Moves like having thousands of hours of unneeded DH built into out likes? Moves like flying you 1 leg to an 18 hour overnight, then 2 legs to the next 18 hour overnight? Does that sound cost cutting to you? Management is dragging their feet not because they hate pilots (they do, but that's not why), they are dragging their feet because they want total control over our lives. They want the ability to do whatever they want whenever they want. That's not my idea of a good QOL. When management gives someone a trip failure for being out of town on a day off and not available for a draft that is not acceptable. Yet that is the kind of thing they are looking for. This company could save thousands a month by scheduling us with some efficiency, and yet they appoint the most in-efficienet person in the company to run crew planning. So tell me about those tremendous cost cutting moves again??

 

[shamrock]

I don't think they will be able to find pilots at $5.00 an hour... Capitalism jumps in at that point. Secondly lets talk about being sold out. The difference between 19 and 5 is how much debt you accrue in a year. You all sent a clear message. If you are a junior FO you are a subpar, and unqualified to be in the cockpit so we refuse to pay you. You still send that message when one captain with no violations, can walk into the crewroom and talk to another captain on the same equipment with a violation who is making more money because he has been here longer.

Big ticket item for me is a rairse. Except I say it like this. Pay me more an hour. I don't say it like this. Raise per diem after all cost of living, Give me a trip and duty rig to make them more effiecient, Put in a commuter clause because pilots need to be able to live in Pakistan when they work in Atlanta

Huh?

Sorry, you lost me after "Capitalism jumps in at that point."

 

[79%N1]

What are some of these tremendous cost cutting moves? Moves like having thousands of hours of unneeded DH built into out likes? Moves like flying you 1 leg to an 18 hour overnight, then 2 legs to the next 18 hour overnight? Does that sound cost cutting to you? Management is dragging their feet not because they hate pilots (they do, but that's not why), they are dragging their feet because they want total control over our lives. They want the ability to do whatever they want whenever they want. That's not my idea of a good QOL. When management gives someone a trip failure for being out of town on a day off and not available for a draft that is not acceptable. Yet that is the kind of thing they are looking for. This company could save thousands a month by scheduling us with some efficiency, and yet they appoint the most in-efficienet person in the company to run crew planning. So tell me about those tremendous cost cutting moves again??

Oh, I agree with your statements 100%. On those issues they have a long way to go. I think if management would in good faith change some of those controll issues that directly negate our QOL, we would work more closely with them on other cost controlling issues. I'm saying we cant try to get back at them for that to try to break the bank and raise the bar right now. I dont dnow what the CNC is asking for, but most I hear say that is what we should get. I disagree, in this pay to play environment. I am willing to strike over the control/QOL issues, but not to 'raise the bar'.

That said, ASA has done a lot of cost-cutting. Look at all the reductions at the GO. A lot of fat has been trimmed, in every department. Do I think they could save a lot more by combining a lot of things with SKYW, absolutely. But even so, they have reduced a lot of their operational costs.

 

[Crash Pad]

Capitalism... You offer pay that is too low. Pilots don't come. You are forced... supply/demand to raise pay on your own accord.

The difference between first year pay of $19 an hour and $5 an hour is how much debt you will be in at the end of the year both are not living wages.

A payscale based on years of service in our job is rediculous. An FO is an FO a captain is a captain. One getting paid double what another one is getting paid is humerous at best.

Sorry was thinking faster than I could type.