To Strike or Not to Strike at ASA

[atrdriver]

A payscale based on years of service in our job is rediculous. An FO is an FO a captain is a captain. One getting paid double what another one is getting paid is humerous at best.

So how would you propose that we get raises in this job, if not for longevity? That is the only way in an enviroment such as this (each person is interchangable). The only way to reward someone for being here 10 years is to pay them more than a 2nd or 3rd year pilot. If you really believe that every F/O should make the same, and every Captian should make the same, then there is something very wrong with your thought process.

Most people are not thinking that we whould get some trmendous pay raise. Most people ARE looking at and concentrating on QOL issues. The CNC knows this, and will act accordingly.

Yes, at one time we were asking for what amounted to a 19% raise when comparing top of scale from the last contract. Is that unreasonable? Maybe, but it is only about 3% per year, which is less than the cost of living goes up each year.

I would be willing to bet that 75% of the lineholders have at least 1 2+ hour break in each trip on their pairing this month. That is not an efficient use of the crews, and that is just one of the QOL issues that must be addressed in some way. A trip or duty rig would address this, and as long as the company built us efficient trips it would not cost them a thing.

 

[79%N1]

Thats my point. COLA doesnt apply here. We need to change that thinking. 700 pilots may need to take a pay reduction, which certainly goes against COLA, but it just matters who we are competing against and what their costs are. Everybody pays less, some much less, than we do on the 700. So, we cant compete.And if we cant compete, we will lose these airplanes anyway, certainly the ability to get ny more of them. Thats not good. Who cares what the rate is on an airplane if we DONT HAVE ANY!!!

We need to get increases in QOL and not worry about COLA right now. However, I will only consider that if there is a PROFIT SHARING plan in place, to allow us to reap the benefits of keeping our costs down and enable us raises before 11 years.

 

[HoserASA]

If we can work with them now, and not against them as our MEC seems to want to do (because It is so personal with some like BA) then maybe we can move forward toward more prosperity.

You're way off base accusing BA of having a grudge with management. BA is doing what we ELECTED him to do - protect our current agreement, which the company has grossly violated and reinterpretated to their benefit. Check with the Grievance Comm and see how many grievances are on file. These will have to be resolved as part of the contract process too. You all bitch about QOL, well guess what, most of the grievances concern QOL issues!

Have you, 79%, ever talked with Bob? I think if you haven't, you should as you may come away with an entirely different and positive impression of Bob. If you don't want to talk in person, send him an email. He will respond to you.

Hoser

 

[HoserASA]

We need to get increases in QOL and not worry about COLA right now. However, I will only consider that if there is a PROFIT SHARING plan in place, to allow us to reap the benefits of keeping our costs down and enable us raises before 11 years.[/quote]

Don't worry about COLA right now, but you want profit sharing? Do you really want your pay based on how the gate and ramp do their jobs that determines your profit sharing? Why not just pay us a rate that makes up for any profit sharing check you think you'll get, without having to worry about other departments at ASA do their jobs?

Give me a raise, screw profit sharing!

Hoser

 

[Crash Pad]

I would salary a pilot. Don't want to be blue collar don't act like a factory worker. Salary would bring the bottom up and the top down. Giving people incentive to leave. Reward for years of service?

If you really don't like two hour breaks I would suggest putting in the contract no sits of two hours or more. Whamo problem solved. We pay full deadhead and yet I hear deadheading is happening all the time. Incentive plans don't work. Unless of course you want to just get payed more. If that is the case then word it like this "I want to make X an hour".

 

[79%N1]

No, I dont want performance based bonuses, and be at the mercy of ramp, gate, wx, or atc....I want profit sharing! That way, if our company prospers, we share in that. If we indeed grow, and run a leaner airline costwise due to our working with them, they should share in that with us and not just line their pockets.

Not to start a debate with you Hoser. You have your opinion on what we should try to get, and why.....and so do I.

 

[HoserASA]

No, I dont want performance based bonuses, and be at the mercy of ramp, gate, wx, or atc....I want profit sharing! That way, if our company prospers, we share in that. If we indeed grow, and run a leaner airline costwise due to our working with them, they should share in that with us and not just line their pockets.

Not to start a debate with you Hoser. You have your opinion on what we should try to get, and why.....and so do I.

That would be different if it was pure profit sharing. Then the company could manipulate the numbers and deny us any pay that way. But, I do agree with you that they should share the profits with us.

But, like I said, I don't want any part of the performance-based bonuses. Although, it appears it has made a difference with the gate folks as I've been getting gate cleared 5-10 minutes before scheduled departure. But, I also have been waiting a lot more for a parking spot the past few weeks too (20-30 minutes).

Hoser

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're way off base accusing BA of having a grudge with management. BA is doing what we ELECTED him to do - protect our current agreement, which the company has grossly violated and reinterpretated to their benefit. Check with the Grievance Comm and see how many grievances are on file. These will have to be resolved as part of the contract process too. You all bitch about QOL, well guess what, most of the grievances concern QOL issues!

Have you, 79%, ever talked with Bob? I think if you haven't, you should as you may come away with an entirely different and positive impression of Bob. If you don't want to talk in person, send him an email. He will respond to you.

Hoser

You're way off base Hoser. Bob is leading us down a very dangerous road just like he did with his fellow PATCO controllers. Talk to some of the controllers about how Bob told them "everything would be OK". Well everything wasn't OK - they all lost their jobs. Bob retires in May - he has nothing to lose if this goes badly. The rest of us have a lot to lose.

Do you remember how Bob acted during our last contract negotiations when it was he who was on the outside? He was extremely disruptive and was constantly attacking Taggert and the MEC because he wasn't happy about his 146 payrate even though nobody made him bid the aircraft.

You like Bob, that's fine. I don't trust him or support him and neither do many others.

By the way, WE didn't elect him, the MEC did, but then you should know that.

 

[Puck Mugger]

You're way off base Hoser. Bob is leading us down a very dangerous road just like he did with his fellow PATCO controllers. Talk to some of the controllers about how Bob told them "everything would be OK". Well everything wasn't OK - they all lost their jobs.

Jesus Christ, now you are blaming Bob for the failure of the PATCO strike? You really are a paranoid dellusional little man. What's next? Are you going to implicate Bob and Duane in a conspiracy with Al Queda and the Delta pilots to mastermind 9/11 to keep you from seeing the inside of the big iron?

You like Bob, that's fine. I don't trust him or support him and neither do many others.

You don't have to like, support, or trust him, that is your right. As for the "many", I guess that is your merry band of liquored-up parrothead contrarian-malcontents that would find something to b1tch about if you won the lottery.

I imagine the only person you would trust as MEC Chairman is you.

Fortunately for the the pilot group AS A WHOLE, that won't be happening anytime soon.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Jesus Christ, now you are blaming Bob for the failure of the PATCO strike? You really are a paranoid dellusional little man. What's next? Are you going to implicate Bob and Duane in a conspiracy with Al Queda and the Delta pilots to mastermind 9/11 to keep you from seeing the inside of the big iron?

Puck, you do realize that Bob was a PATCO leader, and did tell his controllers that he represented, that everthing would be OK if they walked? I have spoken to some of the controllers that he represented and they will never trust him again. As a person who is in a position of leadership, you are responsible for the actions of the union, and I hate to burst your bubble, but unions can and do make mistakes. Mistakes that can have serious consequences. By the way, ALPA didn't support the PATCO controllers, just like they didn't support the NWA mechanics. Be careful in believing that this is some kind of "brotherhood" - it isn't. If you want to trust him and follow his lead, more power to you. I know him too well and am not interested in jumping off a cliff without a parachute. One way or the other, Bob will be out of work in 3 months.

 

[HoserASA]

You're way off base Hoser. Bob is leading us down a very dangerous road just like he did with his fellow PATCO controllers. Talk to some of the controllers about how Bob told them "everything would be OK". Well everything wasn't OK - they all lost their jobs. Bob retires in May - he has nothing to lose if this goes badly. The rest of us have a lot to lose.

Do you remember how Bob acted during our last contract negotiations when it was he who was on the outside? He was extremely disruptive and was constantly attacking Taggert and the MEC because he wasn't happy about his 146 payrate even though nobody made him bid the aircraft.

You like Bob, that's fine. I don't trust him or support him and neither do many others.

By the way, WE didn't elect him, the MEC did, but then you should know that.

Bob acted during last negotiations? You mean like you're acting now JB? Most of us know the real reason you have a hard one for Bob JB, and it's because of what happened with the Vice MEC right JB? Don't get me wrong, I respect and support the former Vice MEC who did many good things for our contract. And, I do wish the Vice and Bob could have got along and worked out their differences. The two of them working together would have been awesome.

I don't blame Bob for being concerned about the 146 pay rate. You would have been too. I can't change your mind JB about not trusting and supporting Bob, and I won't attempt to do so. That's your right.

Yeah, my bad, the MEC elected him. Good catch JB!

Hoser

 

[ReportCanoa]

If you can't support your MEC, what is the alternative? Management is looking to divide and conquer. It worked at Comair.

 

[wms]

A strike vote doesn't mean we'll strike. We'll still vote on a contract. And if we vote no on a contract we have the option to strike to try and get what we need.

There is no reason why we shouldn't have SKW 50-seat rates, which are better than ours, and their work rules with a few tweaks to meet our needs.

I think a contract will pass here without 70-seat rates, but I'm personally voting no to one rate. I also think it will pass without retro pay, but again I'm voting no without 100% retro pay back to Sep 2002.

I will also vote no without trip and duty rigs, even if it means giving up premium, and BTW I've only been blocked over guarantee once or twice. Without us flying at max cruise all day to get premium, the company would save more in fuel than they would spend in rigs, and we'd make more in rigs than we'd lose in premium. It's a win-win.

Bottom line is everyone will vote as the needs of they and their families dictate and the majority will win. All the fighting here will have little effect other than to help mgmt divide the group.

 

[sweptback]

If you really don't like two hour breaks I would suggest putting in the contract no sits of two hours or more. Whamo problem solved. We pay full deadhead and yet I hear deadheading is happening all the time. Incentive plans don't work. Unless of course you want to just get payed more. If that is the case then word it like this "I want to make X an hour".

You have a very narrow view of airline contracts and the union. I understand that you want to get off reserve and hold a line, but selling out your fellow airmen is not the way to do it. Hopefully you're probationary and don't have a vote.

Yes we pay full deadhead pay (which was part of our industry-leading contract when it was signed in 1998), and that is the exact reason why we DON'T have a lot of deadheads this month. Why do you think we have all those 30+ hour overnights in such choice locations? Because in the months previous all those deadheads (to prevent 30 hour overnights) ran up a quarter of a million dollar bill! It's cheaper to leave crews in a hotel room making $1.50 an hour.

That is the reason we need trip/duty rigs, minimum day pay, and other QOL improvements. They're not a backdoor pay raise, as you put it, but rather a check on the company who controls our lives while we're on our trips. I am voting no for any TA that doesn't include substantial QOL improvements.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A strike vote doesn't mean we'll strike. We'll still vote on a contract. And if we vote no on a contract we have the option to strike to try and get what we need.

This is INCORRECT. Once you vote for the strike the MEC can call a strike without passing on managements "last, best, and final offer". In fact, in most cases, the union leadership WILL NOT ALLOW the membership to vote on managements "last, best, and final offer". The NWA mechanics strike and the World pilot's strike, currently going on, are examples of this. Management presented both of these groups with last offers and the union leadership in both cases called the strike without allowing the membership to vote on the last offers. This especially caused quite a bit of anger in the case of the NWA mechanics.

Make sure you have accurate information.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you can't support your MEC, what is the alternative? Management is looking to divide and conquer. It worked at Comair.

No, management has already divided and conquered. Some of us just haven't realized it yet. Oh and it started long before CMR.

I supported our MEC when they were trying to reform ALPA back in 2000. However both the ASA and CMR MECs decided to "become political" and we all see how well that is working. Actually it worked quite well for ALPA national as they were able to "divide and conquer" the ASA and CMR MECs.

Your right about "divide and conquer", but what you don't realize is that ALPA uses it as well as management.

 

[wms]

This is INCORRECT. Once you vote for the strike the MEC can call a strike without passing on managements "last, best, and final offer". In fact, in most cases, the union leadership WILL NOT ALLOW the membership to vote on managements "last, best, and final offer". The NWA mechanics strike and the World pilot's strike, currently going on, are examples of this. Management presented both of these groups with last offers and the union leadership in both cases called the strike without allowing the membership to vote on the last offers. This especially caused quite a bit of anger in the case of the NWA mechanics.

Make sure you have accurate information.

If we vote yes to a strike and they say strike, then I strike.

 

[blueridge71]

Wait till the quaterly earning reports come out. That should be pretty intersting if ASA is making a lot of money, yet is still banging the no net gain crap!

In the meantime....vote YES!

Earnings reports mean nothing in the regional industry. A regional airline will earn profits right up until the day that all flying ceases dramatically when they lose their mainline contract.

I'm a yes vote, but I think that a much better strategy that striking is to delay, especially since they are now talking concessions.

 

[ReportCanoa]

I'm a yes vote, but I think that a much better strategy that striking is to delay, especially since they are now talking concessions.

How much longer can we possibly go? I mean, even another year or two won't see a change of climate in the regional world...

 

[goodto50meters]

I'm in for a yes. I truly hope each of us will vote yes. If we take a strike vote and don't get an overwhelming majority yes vote, we are simply cutting our CNC off at the knees.

If it comes down to it and we strike, we're done. One way or another. We may strike and get some gloriuos contract to get things back going but, soon will see most or all of our work going somewhere else. My sincere hope is that our CNC will have common sense in what they try to achieve on this contract. I don't believe Skywest will allow it to go to a strike. They will settle for whatever first and then take it back piece by piece.

All I ask is to clean up QOL issues and keep pay at or near current levels. Better times are ahead and any lost ground can be made up then.

OMG! I never thought the day would come where I would agree with YOU.

YES to STRIKE!
DONT WANT IT BUT I WILL!

Enough is enough, i am not going to pay to play.

Delta is the one who wont let the strike happen, thats all they need when trying to pull their head out into profitability. A concourse C&D shut down is not in their business plan.

My MEC Speaks for me.

Regards

 

[goodto50meters]

BINGO! You are correct.

OGNIB! You are wrong!

 

[goodto50meters]

Your right Tim, but what if we don't have total faith in some of our reps. I know they mean well, and lord knows they are trying, but I don't think some of them are being very realistic given the current situation. I also question some of them being able to make this decision for me, which is what you do when you vote for a strike. This is a big decision and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Put me down as a MAYBE. There are some good points being made by BOTH sides.

Names? Who is your problem and what part of we're waaaay profitable escapes your world?

Not being an asshole, just want to know so maybe your apprehension can be addressed.

Have a good evening.

 

[goodto50meters]

Your right that we are all alone as you and your fellow CMR pilots have been left in the wind to hang since 2001. Of all the concessionary agreements signed since 2001, yours was the CLOSEST NO VOTE OF ALL, yet everyone is blaiming the CMR pilots. If more groups had acted like your group over the years, we might not be in this position now.

I've lost the fight in me - it just isn't wo[e]rth it anymore.

Ok, so you should be the first one in line to support the MEC in stopping the race to the cesspool here at ASA right? Or when would you like to start trying to stop it? ALPA is what we all make of it and some of it is self inflicted as you say.

Ah hell with it, you're right Joen roll over and play dead, you wont get eaten.

Ev-er-rythings gonna be al-right rock a by- rock a by.........LaBrecques nipple is pinged like a popped CB for ya.

Sleep well

 

[goodto50meters]

Puck, you do realize that Bob was a PATCO leader, and did tell his controllers that he represented, that everthing would be OK if they walked? I have spoken to some of the controllers that he represented and they will never trust him again.

Well, just got off the phone with one of these guys and read him of your PATCO post. He says you are crazy as hell and 'dont know what the fu@k you are talking about"

Joen, if you have to lie to slam BA, thats all we need to know. You just have to be the jackass 112 sec/treas.

Say it isnt so!

 

[HoserASA]

Well, just got off the phone with one of these guys and read him of your PATCO post. He says you are crazy as hell and 'dont know what the fu@k you are talking about"

Joen, if you have to lie to slam BA, thats all we need to know. You just have to be the jackass 112 sec/treas.

Say it isnt so!

I don't know where John comes up with this crap. There used to be something like 10-15 PATCO guys that flew for ASA, most of whom have since retired from ASA. I've been here 16 years, and have never heard any of these guys say anything bad about Bob John. And, being a retired USAF controller myself, (and a PATCO assoc member), and having been TDY during the controller's strike, these guys would have told me anything they felt about Bob. But, John says he's lost the fight in him! Yeah, righttttttttt!

Hoser

 

[blueridge71]

How much longer can we possibly go? I mean, even another year or two won't see a change of climate in the regional world...

We could go on indefinitely. Especially if the alternative is a pay cut. Once DAL comes out of bankruptcy we should be relatively safe. Of course, who knows how long that will be.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Past experience?

Was BA in charge of PATCO at the time? I have talked with a couple of guys who are now working at NFCT's and they most certainly indicated that their leadership at the time was way off base. They were led to believe that they could strike regardless of the Federal Regulations forbidding a government employee from striking. It doesn't hurt to pay close attention to what is going on. Stay informed!

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Names? Who is your problem and what part of we're waaaay profitable escapes your world?

Not being an asshole, just want to know so maybe your apprehension can be addressed.

Have a good evening.

I'm not going to use names, and I'm not going to launch into personal attacks. BOTH sides have some valid points and I don't understand the need to personally attack anyone.

I have been present in the crew lounge when one of our MEC members has launched into BL and SH in what can only be described as very unprofessionable. If anything, it makes us look bad. This individual almost seems like they want a strike.

As far as profits go, I believe it has already been covered, but our profits can evaporate very quickly if Delta decides to do business with someone else. I believe our profit margin was much higher in 1998 than it is now. Anyone have the profit margin numbers - I'm more interested in those than I am in total profit numbers.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Was BA in charge of PATCO at the time? I have talked with a couple of guys who are now working at NFCT's and they most certainly indicated that their leadership at the time was way off base. They were led to believe that they could strike regardless of the Federal Regulations forbidding a government employee from striking. It doesn't hurt to pay close attention to what is going on. Stay informed!

I've known BA for a long time. He was a PATCO leader. In fact, I believe he went to jail for a brief time during the strike. Talk to the PATCO guys that haven't retired, they can fill you in.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Now tell me this dude ain't mgt! Or, if you are an ASA pilot, are you really that ignorant about what your fellow pilots want as far as QOL issues?

Hoser

Hoser, can you tell me what we are asking for exactly. Tell me how my QOL will improve if I vote yes to strike. Specifics please.