To Strike or Not to Strike at ASA

[ASADriver]

ACA, AirWis, Comair, Coex, all had great contracts... They then all got there balls kicked in. Looking at that how can you say getting a good contract stops the spiral to the bottom? I'm not drinking management Koolaid I'm just looking around the industry and that's what I see. Correct me if I'm wrong.

BINGO! You are correct.

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

And look how well their strike worked for them!

I believe they signed an industry leading contract. I am well aware the scenario is different today.
I am not familiar with the ASA contract. I would vote for a strike at my present airline if they asked for paycuts and increased productivity.
I wish the best of luck to all my brothers and sisters at ASA. I hope a strike can be avoided while raising the bar for regional airline contracts.

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

Aren't the NWA mechanics still on strike? I hear many of them are crossing back over to go back to work.

And each and everyone of them are scum for stabbing their striking membership in the back.

 

[ASADriver]

I believe they signed an industry leading contract. I am well aware the scenario is different today.

Exactly, the scenario is different today. They were out of work for 3 months, not collecting a paycheck, and now they have given it all back and then some because they were the highest cost. What's the point?

 

[ASADriver]

And each and everyone of them are scum for stabbing their striking membership in the back.

Yes but they are scum that can pay their mortgage. Will the union pay their mortgage? Did you know that ALPA has scabs holding elected office and positions in ALPA? ALPA can save the "they are scum" arguement for someone who believes their BS. ALPA doesn't care as long as the scabs send money to them.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

It is time to put the cards on the table so to speak-if management wants to continue with the scrades like they have been for so long I say strike-If management wants to HONESTLY (read joke) take care of the employees as a whole then lets get down to buisness. If BL is a limp dick for Skywest management then lets just put the proposal out there -it has to be fair- and if they continue to balk and play games I say walk- QOL is very important to me if you do not have that you have nothing- management sure sees to it they have a great quality of life -time to spread the wealth. Also for you guys that like it here great, we all do or DID and we are trying to get back what this company is lacking. Come March 3 according to the SEC filing - copy not on hand- ASA/Skywest/DAL have to show the books for this transaction to solidify, we will be suprised I think on just how much money is truely being EARNED by the ASA pilots- when george and john owned this company they were shrewd buisnessmen who made a ton of money at ASA - do not think for one minute Delta and Skywest all of a sudden cannot make money, if we did not make money for DAL, Skywest would not have bought us. I guess what I am saying through all the whiskey is this it is time to lay it on the table stop playin f#$ken games and be ready to work or walk - for those of you here that want to work for a second class airline get the F!@k out and apply at Mesa that is where you should be anyway.

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

Just answering your question. I realize they are in a poor situation now. I truly believe we are in a knee jerk reaction these days at the regional level. Our management groups are saying 'jump!!!'.
We ask how high?
Once agian I wish the ASA pilot group all the best in the future.

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

Yes but they are scum that can pay their mortgage. Will the union pay their mortgage? Did you know that ALPA has scabs holding elected office and positions in ALPA? ALPA can save the "they are scum" arguement for someone who believes their BS. ALPA doesn't care as long as the scabs send money to them.

I speak for myself. A scab is scum of the world. Any scab in any industry that has striking members walking a picket line is a low life scum. Period.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

SSDD,

I don’t think that you should strike for not getting a pay raise, but I would strike if QOL issues were not improved by leaps and bounds. There are many items that can be given to the pilots at ASA that cost little or no money. Management was dragging their feet on those issues when I left and from what I hear they are still dragging their feet.

Regionals are contractors, but they can’t be replaced overnight. Think how long it would take to replace 1800 pilots. I was in the training department before I left and a new hire pilot took 2 – 2.5 months to get online. That was with the training machine running full steam. Not to mention they would need to find enough instructors and workers willing to scab. Two months of a 100+ aircraft sitting on the ramp collecting dust would sure make the shareholders happy. As a contractor in your position, strength only comes in numbers. It is time to stand up and fight for fair contract. If ASA and Skywest pilots make a stand then maybe the wonderful MESA pilots will grow a set and follow suit.

At least do your coworkers and the industry a favor and not show your yellow streak on a public forum. If you are going to vote no then you are in the extreme minority or just management trying to scare the voting members. After 3.5 years of negotiating with no serious progress made I hope to see a 100% in favor of a strike vote.

Well said !!!!

 

[ohplease!]

I'm in for a yes. I truly hope each of us will vote yes. If we take a strike vote and don't get an overwhelming majority yes vote, we are simply cutting our CNC off at the knees.

If it comes down to it and we strike, we're done. One way or another. We may strike and get some gloriuos contract to get things back going but, soon will see most or all of our work going somewhere else. My sincere hope is that our CNC will have common sense in what they try to achieve on this contract. I don't believe Skywest will allow it to go to a strike. They will settle for whatever first and then take it back piece by piece.

All I ask is to clean up QOL issues and keep pay at or near current levels. Better times are ahead and any lost ground can be made up then.

 

[captbert]

Hey ASADriver,

Lots of posts in the last hour, did you just get back from church or did you finish your golf game with Brian L.

Do your fellow pilots a favor and break your leg on the way to the strike vote.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

You guys do know that just because we may vote yes and it passes, doesn't meen that there will be a strike..


No, you are right. But if you vote on a strike, and the MEC decides to do it, it is a done deal. I agree, you have some leverage with a strike vote, but once voted in, you are at the mercy of the MEC. That is just a chance we may have to take.

Your right Tim, but what if we don't have total faith in some of our reps. I know they mean well, and lord knows they are trying, but I don't think some of them are being very realistic given the current situation. I also question some of them being able to make this decision for me, which is what you do when you vote for a strike. This is a big decision and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Put me down as a MAYBE. There are some good points being made by BOTH sides.

 

[mxflyer]

i say all you whinny stripped bar boys stike. if they gave you what you wanted yall find something else to bitch about. get a real job and quit bitching bitches.

 

[sweptback]

Your right Tim, but what if we don't have total faith in some of our reps. I know they mean well, and lord knows they are trying, but I don't think some of them are being very realistic given the current situation. I also question some of them being able to make this decision for me, which is what you do when you vote for a strike. This is a big decision and shouldn't be taken lightly.

You obviously haven't talked to a MEC or CNC member because if you did you would realize that what they are asking for is what other airlines ALREADY HAVE.

We are not asking for pie-in-the sky dreams. We are not asking for a 20% pay raise. We are not asking for 16 days off a month. If you hear people saying that this is what we are asking for, then they are lying through their teeth.

We are asking for QOL and non-compensation related items that are in the contracts of airlines in our peer group. None of these things are going to bankrupt our airline, as a matter of fact, the airlines with the provisions in their contract that we want to emulate are doing very well (some are even cheaper than us).

Some of you guys have this idea that our CNC is trying to extract a new contract from this company that will impede our ability to grow. Our CNC is fully aware of the state of this industry, and trust me when I say that they are asking for industry standard items.

 

[n6604f]

All great points...I am obviously voting YES!!!!! We need to show the company we are serious about our resolve to bring our contract upto "industry standard"!!!!!! This sub par contract is not acceptable....If we got Comair or SKYW equivalent I think most of us would be happy.

What are the guys/gals you are flying with saying regarding thier vote??....U know the folks that don't post on this web site.

FYI....My screen name is what I think management can do!

 

[MXAV8R]

Strike Vote - Yes

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

You obviously haven't talked to a MEC or CNC member because if you did you would realize that what they are asking for is what other airlines ALREADY HAVE.

We are not asking for pie-in-the sky dreams. We are not asking for a 20% pay raise. We are not asking for 16 days off a month. If you hear people saying that this is what we are asking for, then they are lying through their teeth.

We are asking for QOL and non-compensation related items that are in the contracts of airlines in our peer group. None of these things are going to bankrupt our airline, as a matter of fact, the airlines with the provisions in their contract that we want to emulate are doing very well (some are even cheaper than us).

Actually sweptback I have talked to members of the MEC and CNC. Most of them I believe are fairly reasonable. There are a few that worry me however.

If what you are saying is true, why doesn't ALPA publish what we are asking for? They have already given the proposals to managment, so why the big secret. Simply publish what exactly we are asking for and many of us fence sitters will have an easier time checking the YES box. Publish the proposals and put this to rest.

 

[sweptback]

If what you are saying is true, why doesn't ALPA publish what we are asking for? They have already given the proposals to managment, so why the big secret. Simply publish what exactly we are asking for and many of us fence sitters will have an easier time checking the YES box. Publish the proposals and put this to rest.

Due to the nature of negotiations, ALPA can't publish their proposal. Doing so would compromise their negotiating position. Find me an airline that has ever published their proposal... you won't find one.

However, if you would refer to the Negotiator's Notepad, 11/23/05, it does lay out what improvements the CNC is looking for, as well as what has already been TA'd. I don't believe anybody would look at the list and say that they would not support it. It's all reasonable stuff.

 

[Iflyamouse]

I certainly don't condone what is going on in this industy right now, but it hardly seems like going on strike will get ANYBODY anywhere. (Not just ASA)

 

[atrdriver]

I made about $86,000 last year on the 50 seater. Would have been about $95,000 on the 70. What McDonalds is paying that? That is with a 3 on, 4 off schedule. I guess I'm just stupid for thinking that isn't a bad deal. Maybe I should just go work at McDonalds.

And if management as it's way next year you would make between 8,600 and 13,000 LESS than that. That is what loss of premium pay would mean for the average lineholder. That's a great deal, isn't it? Take a 10-15% paycut so the company can make even more money than it does already. Sorry, I'm not going down that road. I don't want to have to strike, but I will not take a paycut from a 7 year old contract to allow management to have bigger bonuses.

 

[AVoiceOfReason]

Due to the nature of negotiations, ALPA can't publish their proposal. Doing so would compromise their negotiating position. Find me an airline that has ever published their proposal... you won't find one.

Were you here during the last negotiations? We published our exact proposal then and we seemed to do OK. Management has already seen the proposals, only the pilots haven't. How would it harm us to see exactly what we are voting to strike for?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Put me down for a big fat yes.

Not just a yes, a hell f*ckin' yes!

 

[Crash Pad]

Someone please answer my question and I'll climb on for the big win. ACA, Coex, Comair, Airwis... all good contracts all got there balls kicked in. I want someone to reasonably tell me why walking down there road is the way to go.

I also want to know about the QOL stuff. I always here "we don't want money we want QOL stuff"... I'm guessing we will get airport reserve in this next contract I don't know what we're trading for it but I'm guessing that will not help the QOL of some pilots.
Duty rigs? trip rigs?... Yeah I guess that is QOL it is also a round about way of asking for more money.
Commuter clause? Sure helps some QOL but also is a round about way of asking to staff more reserves which means more money for pilots.

I want an honest discussion about my above concerns. I'm willing to vote yes I just want somebody to tell me why I shouldn't worry about the above. In my world as an FO there is only one pay raise that is going to significantly improve my life and that is the upgrade to captain. Even a 5 dollar an hour raise on FO pay... which we won't get... will make minimal impact. Tell me if getting a new better contract will help me get that PIC column rolling. I'm young and still see a future beyond a regional. Show me how a strike gets me in the left seat and I'm onboard.

 

[Crash Pad]

SSDD,


Regionals are contractors, but they can’t be replaced overnight. Think how long it would take to replace 1800 pilots. I was in the training department before I left and a new hire pilot took 2 – 2.5 months to get online. That was with the training machine running full steam. Not to mention they would need to find enough instructors and workers willing to scab. Two months of a 100+ aircraft sitting on the ramp collecting dust would sure make the shareholders happy. As a contractor in your position, strength only comes in numbers. It is time to stand up and fight for fair contract. If ASA and Skywest pilots make a stand then maybe the wonderful MESA pilots will grow a set and follow suit.

I have trouble with this argument. I think it would take a year or two to replace us. I think ASA would sign a contract and rather than MESA suddenly having a mia culpa... I see them underbidding our flying. I see comair with extra capaciy. CHQ just here to help you with that feed problem!
Sure that year or two we could look at everyone and say "we raised the bar" then the in a year or two we are applying at MESA, CHQ or Comair. I think this scenario already played out at several airlines but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ASAFOE120]

Put me down for a YES vote as well. Not because I want to strike, but as a show of unity for my CNC. I second Oh Please's comments on hoping that the CNC will be realistic in the negotiations. I personally would be happy to keep wages where they are, but feel we need great improvements in QOL issues. That is my primary concern. I feel we should keep wages where they are (or bring them in line with Skywests to avoid the whipsaw) and get a contract we can live with for 4 years. Then, if the airlines are doing better, see if we can improve our wages. We should also receive profit sharing. I also believe we should receive some kind of signing bonus so mgmt cant claim victory for dragging this thing out over all these years. (And if they did offer some kind of singing bonus and no pay rate increase, that would probably sway some yes votes there way.)

Just my $.02

 

[Crash Pad]

I personally would be happy to keep wages where they are, but feel we need great improvements in QOL issues.

What does that mean? What are we asking for as far as QOL goes?

 

[Muff-N-Man]

I vote yes - this is more a solidarity vote than anything. To me a strike vote is like a nuclear arsenal; we have it to get the job done, but hope we don't have to use it.

 

[atrdriver]

Duty rigs? trip rigs?... Yeah I guess that is QOL it is also a round about way of asking for more money.

No, that is not a way of asking for more money. In fact, it is a way to save the COMPANY a lot of money in the long run by forcing them to build efficient trips. If a trip/line is built correctly a trip and/or duty rig would never kick in. The company wastes a ton of money as well as a ton of our time by having us fly 1 leg to an 19 hour overnight. Trip and duty rigs are just a way to entice them to stop doing that to us.

 

[shamrock]

ACA, Coex, Comair, Airwis... all good contracts all got there balls kicked in. I want someone to reasonably tell me why walking down there road is the way to go.

The flip side of this is that we keep the status quo or give things back(premium, deadhead pay) which, to me, is the same as getting our balls kicked in anyway.

Duty rigs? trip rigs?... Yeah I guess that is QOL it is also a round about way of asking for more money.

Not if it make the company more efficient by forcing them to use some common sense in how we are scheduled. Those 30+ hour layovers and 3 hour "airport appreciation" breaks in the middle of the day would hopefully disappear with trip and duty rigs, and if they don't, well, the company deserves the costs associated with them.

In my world as an FO there is only one pay raise that is going to significantly improve my life and that is the upgrade to captain.....Show me how a strike gets me in the left seat and I'm onboard.

That's a slippery slope there, Crash. Seems that a quick(er) upgrade is number 1, 2, and 3 on you list, which is fine, but I can assure you that the QOL issues you are willing to give up on now will come back to haunt you in the future should your vision of a "future beyond a regional" take a bit longer to achieve than you had planned. I don't think that 4th stripe will be much of a consolation when you're sitting in Macon for 30+ hours knowing you are getting a whopping 2 hours of pay for 3 days of your life. If you had asked me 5 year ago where I would be today I would have likely said junior Captain or senior FO on something that carries a bit more than 50 seats and pays a bit more than $35K after 4 years, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Even a 5 dollar an hour raise on FO pay... which we won't get... will make minimal impact.

I'd say that trip and duty rigs along with an overhaul of our scheduling system would cost much less than a $5/hour raise across the board and I'd even hazard a guess that it might actually save the company money.

You can vote the way you want, but for me the slide has to stop. If I lose this job for simply standing up for what I see as fair treatment and a bit of respect from my employer then so be it.

YES, by the way.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Someone please answer my question and I'll climb on for the big win. ACA, Coex, Comair, Airwis... all good contracts all got there balls kicked in. I want someone to reasonably tell me why walking down there road is the way to go.

I also want to know about the QOL stuff. I always here "we don't want money we want QOL stuff"... I'm guessing we will get airport reserve in this next contract I don't know what we're trading for it but I'm guessing that will not help the QOL of some pilots.
Duty rigs? trip rigs?... Yeah I guess that is QOL it is also a round about way of asking for more money.
Commuter clause? Sure helps some QOL but also is a round about way of asking to staff more reserves which means more money for pilots.

I want an honest discussion about my above concerns. I'm willing to vote yes I just want somebody to tell me why I shouldn't worry about the above. In my world as an FO there is only one pay raise that is going to significantly improve my life and that is the upgrade to captain. Even a 5 dollar an hour raise on FO pay... which we won't get... will make minimal impact. Tell me if getting a new better contract will help me get that PIC column rolling. I'm young and still see a future beyond a regional. Show me how a strike gets me in the left seat and I'm onboard.

Someone else mentioned this and this is true. Just because you got 1000 PIC turbine, it does not mean every airline is coming at you wanting your services. Unless you have a golden ticket...big time connection somewhere, you are looking at 2 years, minimum, on the left seat before anyone gives you a shot (even thats questionable). In the meantime, you are a junior captain getting abused under very crappy work rules. No consistency, no privilages, no nothing. So, IMHO, if your goal is getting out of here then this contract is very important for you also. You might still be here when it expires again. Ask around, how many Captains here thought they would be out of here by now and are still here...its a full time job getting out of ASA...there is even the chance this might be it for you...you never know...just for that reason alone you should care...trust me...upgrade under the current contract and you will see what I am talking about. Once again, this vote is not an immediate strike, just gives the UNION the freedon to use it if it gets to that point.