To be a Scab or not to be?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hi guys and gals.
I'm a long time reader, first time poster.


I see this all the time!! (And we are not talking military training). Why do these guys and gals think the "industry" owes them a job with a com/ multi/ instru. and 500 hrs? To me this is scary! Theses pilots should be out "learning" to fly in the real world by CFIing, aerial surveying (me), a/c demo, a/c delivering, entery level cargo/ checks, or whatever.

Am I right or wrong?

SCT

PS- I'll be the first to admit that I was hired in the hiring wave in the mid 90's. But I at least had 2,000 hrs and a lots of real world entry level exp.

You are right and wrong. Intern programs have enabled pilots to go striaght from college to regionals. Combined with our culture of entitlement, attitudes are just that. I think anyone would take the regional job at 400 hours if offered. Keep in mind with 400 hours you can fly a tactical jet off an aircraft carrier.

 

[bobbysamd]

Regional job expectations

Why do these guys and gals think the "industry" owes them a job with a com/ multi/ instru. and 500 hrs?

The answer is simple: the advertising and propaganda.

Take a look at flight school ads in pilot magazines. There was one that advertised, "From Zero Time to Regional Airline Pilot in Nine Months!" How can that do anything but hook someone? Then, you have the flight school "career consultants," who are nothing more than salesmen. They toss any sense of truth or ethics aside to sign up someone, and will say anything they want to hear. By the time the student finishes, he/she is expecting a regional job at 400 hours because it has been pounded in him/her.

Moreover, let us not forget the Pied Piper of the Pilot Shortage, Kit Darby. He has been predicting a pilot shortage since 1987 and has been saying since that time that 40-thousand new pilots would be needed during the next ten years. Combine Kit and flight school advertising, and the result is a lethal witch's brew of sophistries and broken "promises."

I'll be the first to admit that I was hired in the hiring wave in the mid 90's. But I at least had 2,000 hrs and a lots of real world entry level exp.

It was the same during the late '80s hiring wave, which, coincidentally, was the beginning of the Kit Darby pilot shortage. Pilots who had the times but were heretofore ignored suddenly were sought after. And newbies could get on with the regionals with 1500 total-500 multi, or less, sometimes.

We had two gals at Riddle who fell into that category. They were hired at ERAU in 1988 with their single engine ratings, and were probably hired because the Chief Instructor at their school became ERAU's Chief Flight Instructor. The school got them their multis and MEIs, and, a year later, in 1989, were hired by Express I. I know that neither had their ATPs and one had only 280 hours of multi. As far as I know, her only professional flying experience was her 800 hours of instruction given at Riddle. Now, before someone says these two ladies were hired because they were women, we had a guy at ERAU who learned to fly at American Flyers in Florida and who was hired at Riddle with about 700 hours. Not long after he got into the multis, Comair hired him. I don't think he had 1500 total-500 multi and/or his ATP.

 

[TrafficInSight]

I think a lot of us younger folks are uncertain about this because we've never had the luxury of a job where we were that protected.

If I were to talk my fellow employees into a strike tomorrow then the following day we wouldn't have jobs.

It comes down to a need to feed ourselves and our families, so it is a quality of life decision. Some of us do just want to fly for a living and I count myself as one of those.

I have trouble with the decision myself because my perspective is that of someone who doesn't have the protection of a union. I think that everyone here who is still in college or still building time and doesn't have the protection of a union can say the same thing. I think it will probably change once they enter a union environment.

I myself still can't be sure what would happen if it came down to not being able to feed my family or supporting what I thought was an unreasonable union demand. That may change once I am used to the idea of it though.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Don't do it.

No matter what you opinon of the validity of a strike or the union or whatever, if you scab it will stay with you for the rest of your life. You will have to live with that forever. AND you will probably not get hired anywhere else, even if it is not a union company you want to go to afterwards, many will not have a favorable opinon of your character.

The strikers will come back and treat you like $hit forever. Good luck on your checkrides cuz they'll do everything within their power to get rid of you. Never leave your personal stuff unsupervised, it'll get stolen or filled with all sorts of nasty things. Jumpseats will often be denied, the list of possibilites just goes on.

Like it or not, that's the cold hard reality of a unionized industry. You gotta "pay your dues" and "wait your turn" or you will be made to suffer.

 

[bobbysamd]

Protected jobs

I think a lot of us younger folks are uncertain about this because we've never had the luxury of a job where we were that protected.

If I were to talk my fellow employees into a strike tomorrow then the following day we wouldn't have jobs.

If you are a non-union shop and you all walk out, sure, you would not have jobs. Your boss would say you all quit.

Organizing workers into a union is a complex endeavor. This is an oversimplification, but if your group decides to throw a white-card (union) election, the law protects your jobs for the duration of organizing activity.

I have trouble with the decision myself because my perspective is that of someone who doesn't have the protection of a union. I think that everyone here who is still in college or still building time and doesn't have the protection of a union can say the same thing . . . .

The unions offer other services besides protecting jobs. A major service is representation in case your employer wants to terminate you. Not every person is right for every job, but, at least with a union, a delegate or something can be at your side in case company tries to fire you. In the non-union world, employment is primarily at-will. That means a company can terminate you at any time, for no reason. (You can also leave at any time, for no reason.) I have been in situations in my life where I was terminated, suddenly, and with no warning. Take it from someone who knows, it is very traumatic to have your livelihood suddenly jerked from you, especially after you feel you have walked the extra mile for your company and when, by all objective criteria, it was undeserved. I would like to think that at least with a union I would have had help to speak up for me.

Get this book: Every Employee's Guide to the Law: What You Need To Know About Your Rights in the Workplace-And What To Do If They Are Violated, by Lewin G. Joel, III.

 

[de727ups]

Nuts....

Keep in mind with 400 hours you can fly a tactical jet off an aircraft carrier.

Someone always comes up with this when talking about low time jet F/O's. So what school do you think equals the US military at training pilots? TAB? Gulfstream? MAPD? The military has a pretty intense screening process and then trains to a standard that would be uneconomical for anyone to pay for. Gulfstream? Their screening process is "will this be cash or charge".

You just can't make a comparasion between a 400 hour intern and a 400 hour F-18 pilot.

Super low time F/O's don't belong in jet cockpits. They don't have the real world experience to be an asset in the cockpit.

 

[bobbysamd]

400-hour jet jockeys v. 400-hour Beech 1900 FOs

The military has a pretty intense screening process and then trains to a standard that would be uneconomical for anyone to pay for . . . . .

Not to mention that those are selected have are hand-picked, after previously going through a constructive pre-screening process, which was their service academy or ROTC or OCS program. Be assured the military screening program is extremely in-depth and thorough. Only candidates with the highest potential are selected. (Which included, during his time and even with his connections, George W. Bush. His F-102 was still an expensive piece of government equipment not to be entrusted to just anyone.)

Gulfstream? Their screening process is "will this be cash or charge".

That's extremely funny!

You just can't make a comparasion between a 400 hour intern and a 400 hour F-18 pilot.

(emphasis added)

No, you cannot. But a well-trained 400 hour pilot can still drive a 1900 around, in time. I like MAPD, but I would submit that MAPD's screening program's bottom-line is very much ability to pay. When I was there, we had students who couldn't, or wouldn't, cut it. Those who made it through were generally sharp people and capable. Those who didn't washed out, though some did because of bad attitudes.

 

[jshaff]

Not what you think

I do not take offense to anything people say about 400hr pilots who expect a job at the regionals. Why? Because I don't expect a job. Yes, I do have 400hrs. Yes, I do want a job. And yes, I do expect to pay my dues to get that job.

I am currently ACTIVE military, and a FULL TIME student. I may be young, but I understand that it takes some dedication and sacrifice to get where you want to be.

SCT- I have not seen what it is like in the industry, but I do know what you are talking about. There are students at my school that believe they are ready for a job and they have less hours than I do. Do I agree with them? No. But I would be happy for them if they got a job.

I, personally, would take any job given to me. I don't care how many hours I have. The way I figure it, any job would give me "life experience". Right now, I feel naive because everyone is telling me "Chose the job with the best quality of life, the money will come next." But I feel someone in my position doesn't have the authority to pick-and-choose. I am at the bottom of the barrel. Quality of life isn't on option for me right now. Am I wrong?

to all- Thanks for the advice. I am just starting out and I have a lot of questions about everything. This discussion has been great for me. I learned that I know nothing about Scabs and now I feel I am getting a grasp on subject.

-jshaff

 

[philo beddoe]

jschaff-


You have a good attitude.

Your friends at the school sound like they need a reality check, if they think they are ready for a 121 job. They are confusing "wanting" with "ready".

At their experience level, they need more hours just to discover how little they know. Seen it a million times.

They won;t listen, though, I suppose.

Mix hubris with lucre and you have a 300-hr mesa pilot.

 

[jshaff]

I see that there is a certain amount of discontent towards low-hour pilots working in the regionals... ie some mesa pilots.

Do you think they shouldn't be working there? I think it's great they found a job with so few hours. The pax might not have the same view as me however. I guess what I'm saying, would you encourage a pilot with as few hours as me to take a job like that, or would you say, "Fly pipeline, CFI, do something else to gain experience first."?

Would I take the job? yep. Do I know better? Nope.

-jshaff

 

[bobbysamd]

Military flying

I am currently ACTIVE military, and a FULL TIME student.

Any chance you could qualify for OCS and go on to UPT?

The airlines still prize military pilots. Military pilots always go to the head of line at hiring time. The airlines like military pilots for at least a couple of reasons: (1) By the time they get to the airlines, military pilots have gone through multiple personnel screenings. The airlines have a good idea of the type of person they're getting. They know they are getting an educated and trained individual who knows how to carry out instructions. (2) Military pilot training and flight experience are known quantities. They know the type of pilot they're getting.

Another reason to go military is that military pilots are the best hiring network around. Military pilots of the same unit routinely recommend each other to their airlines. Even with the best qualifications, it still takes help sometimes to get your foot in the door.

Of course, military pilots must commit to several years of service, and that leaving the military is a career change. You will be older than many of your peers, but the ability to brandish military flying credentials will automatically make you competitive.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Someone always comes up with this when talking about low time jet F/O's. So what school do you think equals the US military at training pilots? TAB? Gulfstream? MAPD? The military has a pretty intense screening process and then trains to a standard that would be uneconomical for anyone to pay for. Gulfstream? Their screening process is "will this be cash or charge".

You just can't make a comparasion between a 400 hour intern and a 400 hour F-18 pilot.

Super low time F/O's don't belong in jet cockpits. They don't have the real world experience to be an asset in the cockpit.

Well, of course, agreed. My point was it isn't the age and flight time it is the training and selection. One good thing about 400 hour FOs (is it 400 now, I thought it was 600) is they are very impressionable and you can mold them into professionals. If you don't they will become bitter jerks... Who'd you'd rather have in the jet?

'Cause I don't think we're going to stop managment from bringing boy wonder to work....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Any chance you could qualify for OCS and go on to UPT?

The airlines still prize military pilots. Military pilots always go to the head of line at hiring time. The airlines like military pilots for at least a couple of reasons: (1) By the time they get to the airlines, military pilots have gone through multiple personnel screenings. The airlines have a good idea of the type of person they're getting. They know they are getting an educated and trained individual who knows how to carry out instructions. (2) Military pilot training and flight experience are known quantities. They know the type of pilot they're getting.

Another reason to go military is that military pilots are the best hiring network around. Military pilots of the same unit routinely recommend each other to their airlines. Even with the best qualifications, it still takes help sometimes to get your foot in the door.

Of course, military pilots must commit to several years of service, and that leaving the military is a career change. You will be older than many of your peers, but the ability to brandish military flying credentials will automatically make you competitive.

Good luck with your plans.

Military guys can bring honor duty country to the company too.

I recall for a while the jB selection was run by civilian guys (BAFAN types actually) and the military guys weren't getting the nod as much. It was kinda nice actually to see the tables turned...not sure about the truth or the current situation.....

 

[jshaff]

Military

I believe I can be flying in the airlines sooner, if I follow the civilian route. I am two months away from getting out of the military. In order to fly for the military, I would be giving them a 9-10 year commitment. I think I could make better time if I just continue with school and training.

It is frustrating/intimidating to know that I will be competing against these guys for a job. How am I supposed to contend with an F-18 pilot? Like you are saying, ex-military are very desirable to the airlines. I hear that might be changing though. Of course, I suppose that's what all the flying mags want you to hear.

-jshaff

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Civilian pilots have 2 advantages over military pilots: they tend to be younger and have more tt. Add in the fact that there are only so many military pilots to go around.

As one of my teachers told me, when you go in for an airline interview, they are asking themselves if you would drive them crazy if you lived with them for the next month... Your tt and what you flew means nothing at that point b/c you meed their flight experience requirements.

 

[AA717driver]

Enigma--Great post on management earning our disrespect. SWA and JB provide great role models for managers. They just don't listen...

I got hired as an FO in a Bandierante with 700 tt/125 multi. I came up to speed pretty fast(fortunately, it was a pretty easy airplane) but I didn't lose one second of sleep because I got hired as a low timer. My initial pay was $800/month and I immediately set to work finding a better job.

Those low paying jobs always have and always will be there. They use us and they whine when we use them. My answer to the company when I bolt for greener pastures is "You have a chance to keep me but you won't do what is necessary. Bye."

I've seen some of the attitude among younger pilots that they are deserving of an invitation to the majors right out of school. They are naive. Kind of like when I sent out resumes last year(knowing that I was getting furloughed) expecting to be welcomed with open arms to any and all airlines I applied to. The silence was deafening. 12,000 hours and a buck will get you a cup of coffee...

I guess that's the advantage of building up real world experience--there's someone around to tell you that with 400 hours you don't have a chance in he!! of getting a jet job.

Keep your head down and keep networking and looking for any job that suits you and can further your career. Always keep a positive attitude. The interviewers can spot bitterness a mile away. Good luck.TC

 

[de727ups]

"Like you are saying, ex-military are very desirable to the airlines. I hear that might be changing though."

Who's saying that's changing? Dude....put the Flight Training magazine interview with the head of Gulfstream down. Anyone who is saying military canadates aren't looked on as the best is full of it. It's been that way since I've been keeping track (say the mid-70's) and I think it will always be that way. Now...does that mean the military guys have it easy? That there have never been military guys waiting in pools? Heck no...it's not easy for anybody. But military guys, in general, always are at the top of the pile. Maybe they get beat out by someone who's ex-airline with heavy jet time but other than that...forget it.

I'll agree with the propaganda that the percentage of military guys as new hire airline pilots is dropping. That's a function fewer military guys out there and longer enlistment times.....not a lack of favor shown towards military guys.

 

[bobbysamd]

Military v. civilian - again

Civilian pilots have 2 advantages over military pilots: they tend to be younger and have more tt.

. . . which is counterbalanced by the high-quality, known training military pilots receive. And the type of material the military chooses for its pilots and the multi-tiered screening program the material goes though before becoming pilots.

Add in the fact that there are only so many military pilots to go around.

. . . . which is why they go to the head of the line.

I'm not saying that military flyers are necessarily better than civilian pilots. But how many civilian pilots do you know who can offer actual heavy, four-engine jet time to companies which fly similar, and possibly less-sophisticated, equipment.

Finally, there is no guarantee that you will be hired if you are a miltary pilot, or any other kind of pilot. I've always had the theory that you could virtually clone off ten candidates, all identical in every way, and interview them for three positions. All ten folks would be perfect for the job. Any one of the ten would upgrade to captain, eventually, if hired, and would be outstanding contributors to the airline. Three are hired and the other seven are sent home, with no hope of reconsideration by that airline per its interview policy. Why were the three hired and the others rejected? Who knows?

 

[pilotyip]

Military success

We are not a great target for the military pilot, but about 30% of our hires are military trained pilots. We like to hire them because of a higher percentage successfully complete training, like one failure of 47 new hires and the civilian side it is like 14 failures out of 119 hires. In addition, no military pilot has needed additional IOE time or had any problem going through upgrade.
This includes Helo pilots, which normally on the second sim session, blow their fixed wing non-turbine civilian counter parts out of the water. Side subject, I can not understand the airlines hiring department prejudice against Helo time, they are fantastic sticks and we are lucky to get them.

 

[pilotyip]

SCAB thing

This started a SCAB thread so here is the SCAB slant. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984, they were hiring P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I have spent many years moving bewteen jobs and am now working for some non-sked at YIP. Was it the right choice, I don't know? I suppose their is some satisfaction when I am jumpseating and the Ahole in right seat pulls out the list and I am not on it. But is that worth the $1M in lost pay? Hindsight is such a wonderful thing.