To be a Scab or not to be?

[bobbysamd]

Military flying

I am currently ACTIVE military, and a FULL TIME student.

Any chance you could qualify for OCS and go on to UPT?

The airlines still prize military pilots. Military pilots always go to the head of line at hiring time. The airlines like military pilots for at least a couple of reasons: (1) By the time they get to the airlines, military pilots have gone through multiple personnel screenings. The airlines have a good idea of the type of person they're getting. They know they are getting an educated and trained individual who knows how to carry out instructions. (2) Military pilot training and flight experience are known quantities. They know the type of pilot they're getting.

Another reason to go military is that military pilots are the best hiring network around. Military pilots of the same unit routinely recommend each other to their airlines. Even with the best qualifications, it still takes help sometimes to get your foot in the door.

Of course, military pilots must commit to several years of service, and that leaving the military is a career change. You will be older than many of your peers, but the ability to brandish military flying credentials will automatically make you competitive.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Someone always comes up with this when talking about low time jet F/O's. So what school do you think equals the US military at training pilots? TAB? Gulfstream? MAPD? The military has a pretty intense screening process and then trains to a standard that would be uneconomical for anyone to pay for. Gulfstream? Their screening process is "will this be cash or charge".

You just can't make a comparasion between a 400 hour intern and a 400 hour F-18 pilot.

Super low time F/O's don't belong in jet cockpits. They don't have the real world experience to be an asset in the cockpit.

Well, of course, agreed. My point was it isn't the age and flight time it is the training and selection. One good thing about 400 hour FOs (is it 400 now, I thought it was 600) is they are very impressionable and you can mold them into professionals. If you don't they will become bitter jerks... Who'd you'd rather have in the jet?

'Cause I don't think we're going to stop managment from bringing boy wonder to work....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Any chance you could qualify for OCS and go on to UPT?

The airlines still prize military pilots. Military pilots always go to the head of line at hiring time. The airlines like military pilots for at least a couple of reasons: (1) By the time they get to the airlines, military pilots have gone through multiple personnel screenings. The airlines have a good idea of the type of person they're getting. They know they are getting an educated and trained individual who knows how to carry out instructions. (2) Military pilot training and flight experience are known quantities. They know the type of pilot they're getting.

Another reason to go military is that military pilots are the best hiring network around. Military pilots of the same unit routinely recommend each other to their airlines. Even with the best qualifications, it still takes help sometimes to get your foot in the door.

Of course, military pilots must commit to several years of service, and that leaving the military is a career change. You will be older than many of your peers, but the ability to brandish military flying credentials will automatically make you competitive.

Good luck with your plans.

Military guys can bring honor duty country to the company too.

I recall for a while the jB selection was run by civilian guys (BAFAN types actually) and the military guys weren't getting the nod as much. It was kinda nice actually to see the tables turned...not sure about the truth or the current situation.....

 

[jshaff]

Military

I believe I can be flying in the airlines sooner, if I follow the civilian route. I am two months away from getting out of the military. In order to fly for the military, I would be giving them a 9-10 year commitment. I think I could make better time if I just continue with school and training.

It is frustrating/intimidating to know that I will be competing against these guys for a job. How am I supposed to contend with an F-18 pilot? Like you are saying, ex-military are very desirable to the airlines. I hear that might be changing though. Of course, I suppose that's what all the flying mags want you to hear.

-jshaff

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Civilian pilots have 2 advantages over military pilots: they tend to be younger and have more tt. Add in the fact that there are only so many military pilots to go around.

As one of my teachers told me, when you go in for an airline interview, they are asking themselves if you would drive them crazy if you lived with them for the next month... Your tt and what you flew means nothing at that point b/c you meed their flight experience requirements.

 

[AA717driver]

Enigma--Great post on management earning our disrespect. SWA and JB provide great role models for managers. They just don't listen...

I got hired as an FO in a Bandierante with 700 tt/125 multi. I came up to speed pretty fast(fortunately, it was a pretty easy airplane) but I didn't lose one second of sleep because I got hired as a low timer. My initial pay was $800/month and I immediately set to work finding a better job.

Those low paying jobs always have and always will be there. They use us and they whine when we use them. My answer to the company when I bolt for greener pastures is "You have a chance to keep me but you won't do what is necessary. Bye."

I've seen some of the attitude among younger pilots that they are deserving of an invitation to the majors right out of school. They are naive. Kind of like when I sent out resumes last year(knowing that I was getting furloughed) expecting to be welcomed with open arms to any and all airlines I applied to. The silence was deafening. 12,000 hours and a buck will get you a cup of coffee...

I guess that's the advantage of building up real world experience--there's someone around to tell you that with 400 hours you don't have a chance in he!! of getting a jet job.

Keep your head down and keep networking and looking for any job that suits you and can further your career. Always keep a positive attitude. The interviewers can spot bitterness a mile away. Good luck.TC

 

[de727ups]

"Like you are saying, ex-military are very desirable to the airlines. I hear that might be changing though."

Who's saying that's changing? Dude....put the Flight Training magazine interview with the head of Gulfstream down. Anyone who is saying military canadates aren't looked on as the best is full of it. It's been that way since I've been keeping track (say the mid-70's) and I think it will always be that way. Now...does that mean the military guys have it easy? That there have never been military guys waiting in pools? Heck no...it's not easy for anybody. But military guys, in general, always are at the top of the pile. Maybe they get beat out by someone who's ex-airline with heavy jet time but other than that...forget it.

I'll agree with the propaganda that the percentage of military guys as new hire airline pilots is dropping. That's a function fewer military guys out there and longer enlistment times.....not a lack of favor shown towards military guys.

 

[bobbysamd]

Military v. civilian - again

Civilian pilots have 2 advantages over military pilots: they tend to be younger and have more tt.

. . . which is counterbalanced by the high-quality, known training military pilots receive. And the type of material the military chooses for its pilots and the multi-tiered screening program the material goes though before becoming pilots.

Add in the fact that there are only so many military pilots to go around.

. . . . which is why they go to the head of the line.

I'm not saying that military flyers are necessarily better than civilian pilots. But how many civilian pilots do you know who can offer actual heavy, four-engine jet time to companies which fly similar, and possibly less-sophisticated, equipment.

Finally, there is no guarantee that you will be hired if you are a miltary pilot, or any other kind of pilot. I've always had the theory that you could virtually clone off ten candidates, all identical in every way, and interview them for three positions. All ten folks would be perfect for the job. Any one of the ten would upgrade to captain, eventually, if hired, and would be outstanding contributors to the airline. Three are hired and the other seven are sent home, with no hope of reconsideration by that airline per its interview policy. Why were the three hired and the others rejected? Who knows?

 

[pilotyip]

Military success

We are not a great target for the military pilot, but about 30% of our hires are military trained pilots. We like to hire them because of a higher percentage successfully complete training, like one failure of 47 new hires and the civilian side it is like 14 failures out of 119 hires. In addition, no military pilot has needed additional IOE time or had any problem going through upgrade.
This includes Helo pilots, which normally on the second sim session, blow their fixed wing non-turbine civilian counter parts out of the water. Side subject, I can not understand the airlines hiring department prejudice against Helo time, they are fantastic sticks and we are lucky to get them.

 

[pilotyip]

SCAB thing

This started a SCAB thread so here is the SCAB slant. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984, they were hiring P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I have spent many years moving bewteen jobs and am now working for some non-sked at YIP. Was it the right choice, I don't know? I suppose their is some satisfaction when I am jumpseating and the Ahole in right seat pulls out the list and I am not on it. But is that worth the $1M in lost pay? Hindsight is such a wonderful thing.

 

[bobbysamd]

Scabbing

This started a SCAB thread so here is the SCAB slant. Looking back I missed opportunities, made wrong choices, like should I have crossed the picket line at CAL in 1984, they were hiring P-3 guys from my reserve unit, My ALPA union buddies in my squadron said if I did that I would be labeled as a SCAB and end up my career flying for some non-sked at YIP. The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money . . .

. . . . and are pariahs among the overall (unionized) pilot contingent . . . .

. . . and I have spent many years moving bewteen jobs and am now working for some non-sked at YIP. Was it the right choice, I don't know?

Of course, you did the right thing. You would know better than most people, after serving in a Navy P-3 unit, how important comaraderie is for pilots. Being ostrascized from your peer group is a terrible thing for a pilot - not to mention drinking Frank L.'s demonstrated kool-aid.

My father, of blessed memory, and a staunch, conservative management type, suggested that I apply to Eastern during its strike twenty-four years ago. He thought it would be a great opportunity. Notwithstanding the absolute labeling as "scab," there was no doubt in my mind that any promises made that I would keep my "job" after the strike ended were lies.

Friends do not let friends scab.

 

[Publishers]

friends

friends do not let their friendship go over this crap.

Oh the indescribable comfort of feeling safe with a friend
Never having to weigh thoughts or measure words
but letting them all spill out, wheat and chaf together
knowing that a faithful hand will sift them, keeping only
that worth saving and with a breath of kindness blow the rest away/

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

The guys who crossed the line have been Captains forever, good company, good money, and I have spent many years moving bewteen jobs and am now working for some non-sked at YIP. Was it the right choice, I don't know?

They are SCABS forever. You did the right thing. Are you telling me there's a doubt in your mind? You can look yourself in the mirror and be proud that you've had an honest career. How many millions of dollars do you suppose it will take for one of those scabs to feel good about themselves? And when the a-hole pulls the list out, you get the ride, not the scab-captain or not.

 

[de727ups]

Being a scab...

"But is that worth the $1M in lost pay?"

What is you dignity and honor worth? I'd say you made the right choice. But that's just me.

 

[bobbysamd]

Scabbing and mirror-gazing

They are SCABS forever. You did the right thing. Are you telling me there's a doubt in your mind? You can look yourself in the mirror and be proud that you've had an honest career. How many millions of dollars do you suppose it will take for one of those scabs to feel good about themselves? And when the a-hole pulls the list out, you get the ride, not the scab-captain or not.

(emphasis added)

"Honest career" is the threshold issue, not money or good company. Don't forget the story of Captain Faust, who sold his soul to the Devil.

 

[TurboS7]

If you had that 1M you wouldn't have to worry about begging for a jumpseat. Besides if you were with CAL you could get passes anywhere you wanted to go for you and your family. In time ALPA has forgiven the CAL scabs so I guess you have what you have but oh well......... This country does not run thanks to the unions, our country runs via free enterprise and the ability of people to make something out of nothing. Unions suck from the system and they try and make people feel secure when they really are not. A contract and employee solidarity are essential to creating a good working enviroment, I have no problem with that. I just have a real problem with the AFL-CIO and all the national political propaganda. You guys have really been brain-washed, enjoy your little club.........

 

[Boeingman]

Well, I'd like to reply and out a different perspective, at least from the eyes of a CAL striker anyway.



Hugh..............I'd like to tell you not to hold your breath since none of the scabs really care about the jumpseat blacklist or those who carry it. Further, using the jumpseat as a weapon may stroke some hidden passion and sense of accomplishment, but all it will do is harm one of your brother pilots the day they come to the scab captain needing a ride to work or home. I have more personal hatred to the ex New York Air pilots who appear on NO list, but were the main and original source of the problem at CAL and within the industry in the early 80's.



You guys need to understand that it looks foolish to monetarlily berate the CAL situation since 99% of those guys are Captains pulling in $15,000 to $20,000 a month, members in good standing with ALPA and honestly have zero fears about or remorse about what has been said here. I think the career earnings probaly far exceed a million dollars over what pilotyip calculates. Another words guys, they are laughing all the way to the bank, and laugh harder when the anti scab crowd chimes in.



When you look at the CAL scabs, I believe almost half were all ex ALPA, many Braniff pilots in the first part of the strike. Why is that? Where is all the unity amongst the union brotherhood that allowed such a great number to cross? I had many questions walking the line and I was really angry how ALPA national and our MEC completely botched our strike. The CAL strike was so poorly handled and was brought upon by a whipsawing of emotion, although in it's foundation very accurate, but in it's execution and ultimate conclusion a dismal failure. Over time, I grew to understand that many of our own original pilots who crossed did not believe in the strike and felt ALPA was using us as the sacrificial lamb for Frank.


This is by no means an endorsement to cross a line, but I get awful tired of hearing the chest thumping from guys who were probably in diapers when this went down in 83. Looking back on our debacle, I agree in principle that our scabs were right about national ALPA and their motives.

I still personally wouldn't have crossed, if anything but my own principles.
However, never, I mean never leave the cockpit.

 

[Boeingman]

Well, I'd like to reply and out a different perspective, at least from the eyes of a CAL striker anyway.

Hugh..............I'd like to tell you not to hold your breath since none of the scabs really care about the jumpseat blacklist or those who carry it. Further, using the jumpseat as a weapon may stroke some hidden passion and sense of accomplishment, but all it will do is harm one of your brother pilots the day they come to the scab captain needing a ride to work or home. I have more personal hatred to the ex New York Air pilots who appear on NO list, but were the main and original source of the problem at CAL and within the industry in the early 80's.

Tripower made a statement about how no scabs can find employment. Well let me tell you fella that it is awful tough finding employment as a striking pilot. Been there done that. Most corporate employer’s attitude I found while pounding the streets wanted nothing to do with a "radical employee" or an "idiot" walking away from a secure job. I'm just the messenger here but those were a couple of the lovely replies I had from chief pilots handing back a resume to me. Sure, I initially believed the same hype as you are saying, but in reality, ain't so as grandma used to say. And your company was a glorified PFT at the time. I didn't have the $8,000 to buy my job since I had no 737 rating.

You guys need to understand that it looks foolish to monetarily berate the CAL situation since 99% of those guys are Captains pulling in $15,000 to $20,000 a month, members in good standing with ALPA and honestly have zero fears about or remorse about what has been said here. I think the career earnings probably far exceed a million dollars over what pilotyip calculates. Another words guys, they are laughing all the way to the bank, and laugh harder when the anti scab crowd chimes in.

When you look at the CAL scabs, I believe almost half were all ex ALPA, many Braniff pilots in the first part of the strike. Why is that? Where is all the unity amongst the union brotherhood that allowed such a great number to make a personal decision to cross? I had many questions walking the line and I was really angry how ALPA national and our MEC completely botched our strike. The CAL strike was poorly handled and was brought upon by a whipsawing of emotion, although in it's foundation very accurate, but in its execution and ultimate conclusion a dismal failure. Over time, I grew to understand that many of our own original pilots who crossed did not believe in the strike and felt ALPA was using us as the sacrificial lamb about Frank. To this day I believe that is an accurate statement and I will always look at ALPA with a jaded eye.

This is by no means an endorsement to cross a line, but I get awful tired of hearing the chest thumping from guys who were probably in diapers when this went down in 83. Looking back on our debacle, I agree in principle that our scabs were right about national ALPA and their motives. I still personally wouldn't have crossed, if anything but my own principles.

Never, I mean never leave the cockpit. And most important, always take with a grain of salt what your union leadership is telling you. I have seen more backstabbing and political agendas amongst ALPA leadership at the national and local levels then I have ever witnessed amongst the scabs.

To this day I worry more about some non scabs at CAL than I do about some of our other pilots. One only has to look at recent events and how ALPA has handled some issues to verify this statement.

Sorry guys, I've been around the block a time or two and looking back, I don't like the neighborhood.

 

[Boeingman]

Sorry, this format is new to me. How do you delete a pot now that you tried to correct? i.e. the first one?

 

[TurboS7]

Thanks Boeingman, point very well made. I belong to our little company union and believe very strongly in it, it helps management and it helps us.Our contract states that we will not strike or leave the flight deck, we all agreed to that. In some ways it helps our negociating position, the company and our reps have to think deeper and harder to resolve issues.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

. . . which is counterbalanced by the high-quality, known training military pilots receive. And the type of material the military chooses for its pilots and the multi-tiered screening program the material goes though before becoming pilots. . . . . which is why they go to the head of the line.

I'm not saying that military flyers are necessarily better than civilian pilots. But how many civilian pilots do you know who can offer actual heavy, four-engine jet time to companies which fly similar, and possibly less-sophisticated, equipment.

I am just saying that not getting into a military flying program is not the end of the world. The only reason I am not trying to fly fighters is because I don't have 20/20 vision uncorrected. I would do LASIK but the risks don't offset the gains of getting into a military program (IMHO).

 

[TurboS7]

Where did everyone go?

Amazing someone tells the honest truth and all the soothsayers run under the rocks.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

.Our contract states that we will not strike or leave the flight deck, we all agreed to that. In some ways it helps our negociating position,

How could that possibly be a strength? What is your bargaining power? Boeingman illustrates very clearly with the CAL example of what happens when a group is NOT united (IE, scabs decide to scab). It's a debacle. Just like at EAL, just like at UAL. Nobody here is talking about how great the neighborhood (ALPA) is. I doubt you'd find many who like the way ALPA handled the CAL situation or a number of other situations. The subject is not how great ALPA is, it's how bad scabbing is. I've heard plenty of arguments about how Unions have mucked up various labor issues-nobody argues that. I've not yet heard of one where a scab helped the cause of the workers. Show me one of those situations. Standing by...

 

[Publishers]

Hugh

Now tell me Hugh, just where does anyone sign up to be a contributor to workers.

This is the same mentality that says one person is responsible for setting the bar up or down.


You take a job because you are satisfied with the offer, nothing less, nothing more. Others may think it is too low, others too high. Makes no difference, it is your job not theirs.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Now tell me Hugh, just where does anyone sign up to be a contributor to workers.

This is the same mentality that says one person is responsible for setting the bar up or down.

I'd happily answer your question (even though you have not once answered one of mine) if I could just figure out what you are trying to ask.

Nothing more? Nothing less? I took a job with a contract that was bargained for...collectively. I have a reasonable expectation that the next contract will be bargained for...collectively for the good of the majority (that may or may not include me, I understand that part of the membership obligation) of the membership. I am not a free agent. The moment I ponder something such as violating some sort of work action that may be imposed as a negotiating tool, then I am not raising or lowering a bar, I am contributing to the undermining of the bargaining process. It's clear the concept of collective bargaining is lost on you.

 

[orioncontract]

HughJ-how did you get your quote to say

Originally Posted by Publishers

? Did you just type it in? BTW, DITTO!!!!!

Boeingman-Are you saying that you're afraid the scab Captain will just deny everyone the jumpseat because he was? What dis-incentive would you recommend, or are you just suggesting that we let them be? And what do you call the New York Air pilots, and why were they not put on some list similar to the scab list? Where are the consequences? BTW, so glad you're here, as this last issue really makes me scratch my head, and I'd love to hear more about your (and your peers') perspective.
One more comment to whomever talked about the FARs covering the safety issue-I would argue that the minimum crew rest and duty day REALLY need to be looked at and revised, as does the "transportation local in nature" clause. Tired crews can't make good decisions-just ask the AA FO at Little Rock (you can't ask the Captain 'cause he's DEAD!)

Jshaff-Scab gets thrown around too much and misused. Don't think you're a scab because you take a low paying job. Those of us who do are...something else (rhymes with pores?), but not scabs. "The world needs ditch diggers, too!"-Judge Smells

 

[TurboS7]

I remember being in the Metro Airlines office in Longview, Texas in 1976-77 and listening to the pilot's complain. There biggest complaint were the scabs down at Rio Airlines, and how they now had sudden super senority and were in the Captain's seat. I just think commuter pilots are just underpaid and overworked and need something to complain about.

 

[Timebuilder]

Perhaps I had glanced at the thread title yesterday, but for some reason, I was walking around yesterday thinking about my union experiences. Some of you know that I have been a member of three unions, one being a RLA union.



When I joined the RLA union in 1976, I remember a lot of talk about union activity, the "brotherhood" of the members, and a lot of other interesting things. Being a liberal democrat really allowed me to engage this mindset very deeply. I owed a lot of loyalty to the union because without them, I would not have my job, my benefits, my rate of pay, my seniority, etc. I thought this loyalty was always going to be returned in like manner. What I saw in the succeeding years was very different. The loyalty of the union was not to me, but to the union. I saw untrained members placed in important positions where they represented other members in company investigations, and they did so poorly. The interest of the union appeared to be retaining strength, collecting dues, and talking about how important it was in my standard of living.



The curious thing I discovered was the fact that low performance was almost never punished, and high performance was similarly never recognized. Mediocre goals were the order of the day.



So, all day yesterday, I was thinking about where someone's loyalty actually lies. Is it with the union, and is the union always looking out for the best interest of the individual member, or is it elsewhere? At the end of the day I concluded that since the union is watching out for the union more that it is the membership, and in fact by the actions they take regarding a labor action, they can actually harm the membership, I came around full circle and decided that any union man's real loyalty is to his family. His family is getting whatever benefit from his employment because of the wealth being generated by the skill and pluck of his employer. Without the entrepreneurial drive of the people who created and/or operates the business, an airline in our context, we have no reason to think about a labor organization at all. The union helps to negotiate some level of benefit for the upper levels of the seniority roster while providing far less benefit for the majority of the membership, and it provides a grievance mechanism for complaints and disparities. It's purpose is to change a dynamic in the workplace without actually helping to produce economic value. In fact, it often impedes and degrades the creation of economic value.



So, is someone who ALPA calls a scab a scurrilous villain, or it he more likely someone to whom the union has pledged loyalty, yet become clumsy and interested in its own agenda, and as a result the individual acts to be loyal to his family?



In their early days, unions helped to defeat tyranny in the workplace. Slowly, they have changed to defeat profits in the workplace. In the end, they are defeating themselves, and members are paying them to do it.

In any discussion of "scabs," the nature of modern unions is a relevant ingredient.

 

[Publishers]

A few points

Well put!

"I've not yet heard of one where a scab helped the cause of the workers. Show me one of those situations"

The very nature of the individual that you refer to is not there to help the cause of the workers in the first place.

Secondly, if you want to fly for one of the top three legacy airlines, you are forced to be a member.

Thirdly, you surmize that it is impossible to have a fair and equitable company without a union. The wages and treatment of employees would not be the same. I have worked for several companies who had a policy of paying the top wage in the area. Of course they also demanded the top production.

As to your questions, I have continually said if you want to have a union, have a company one like American Airlines. ALPA proves everyday that you cannot be all things to all people.

Democracy works on a supply and demand cycle and the more artificial things put into that, the worse things are.

The fact is that if some of the people on this board had walked into the employer and stated their feelings on this subject, they would not have been hired in the first place.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

The very nature of the individual that you refer to is not there to help the cause of the workers in the first place.

My point, precisely. Scabs think only of themselves.

Secondly, if you want to fly for one of the top three legacy airlines, you are forced to be a member.

I don't want to fly for one of the top three legacy airlines, but I am at a company where membership is optional. I assure you that the percentage of nonmembers is very low, but we know who they are. I've never been at a company where it was mandatory, so I can't speak for that sort of arrangement.[/QUOTE]

Thirdly, you surmize that it is impossible to have a fair and equitable company without a union.

No, I never said that. Half of the frustration with this discourse with you is you miss the point. You read what you want to read and respond to points that weren't made. My point is that Scabs undermine the collective bargaining process of a union. It's indesputable. You've not been able to show me otherwise and don't even attempt an argument. Instead, you toss out generalizations about whether unions or good or bad. Well, they are both, but once one is a member, there is an obligation. You say there's not. I disagree. Once a union is formed and commences collective bargaining, what is their strength? It's their unity, dumbass, and to suggest that folks crossing the line does anything but undermine the process shows a lack of understanding of the process. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, are forced to be a member or not, the fact is, crossing a line is counterproductive to the collective effort. Regardless of how good your union leadership is, regardless of how honest and who their loyalty truly stands with, regardless of the size of your jock. Line-crossers can never be to the benefit of the workers. Now, Read this twice and maybe you'll get the point. If you can come up with a case where scabs have helped other pilots by crossing a line, I'd be all ears. In the meantime, your defense of those who would cross a line speaks volumes.