To all the Fracs

[Ragtime67]

This is for those of you working at any of the FRAC's. I've been on the outside looking in but I can read the writing on the wall.You guys and gals at NETJETS are going to get your ass's handed to you, but you asked for it.Why do you even have a union? do they even give a rip about you?.Your MEC doesn't even have a clue.You as a pilot group have the biggest threat to the company, you can walk.Trust me, you wont walk for long.When some fat cats wife has to go from Newark to Boca on a 25 year old Be90 with a single pilot who can barely get a medical they will put pressure on the company to give you what you want.When Tiger Woods has to airline or God forbid drive to his next event he will put pressure on the company to give you what you want.You say the owners don't care? let them deal with the inconvienance of finding their own way just once and you will get what you want.If you don't get the right contract you can only blame yourselves.Please tell me you did not TA this RCM or whatever you call it. If you did you just screwed the new hires.But then again why should you care,you'll work for peanuts as long as you get to keep your gateway privalage.How nobel of you,you've just turned the industry on its head.You're just the monkey in the cage playing in his own crap.I have no other way to put it.And you guys and gals at FLOPS, you're just set up to become the red headed step child of the industry. The companys going to take away your gateway and there's nothing you can do about it. You need a union yesterday.Not ALPA, all they care about is the Majors,Not Teamsters, they've done nothing at NETJETS.You should start your own, you can call it FRAC-U,I'm sure the meaning wouldn't be lost on management.But you wont, you'll just roll over so they can rub your belly,but thats all you'll get out of it.Like I said I'm on the outside looking in,so I don't exactly have my finger on the pulse of the industry.But I've read your threads,and I've spoken to some of you on the road,and I can read between the lines.The Marketing at your respective companys does a wonderfull job."Buy a share,you'll get well maintained practicly new jets and slave labor from your pilots". What a deal!!!. So this is from the ouside looking in,please don't sell out, you deserve more.I have a great deal of respect for what you do as pilots,bit if you screw this pooch you will loose a lot of respect industry wide.Put the demands on the table,tell the pinheads if they don't ratify it by such and such date the pilots will walk. Then stick to your guns.As the redneck comedian says "geterdone".Don't give up the gateways,don't give up benifits,and get your $.I don't think 60-70% increase over four years with COLA is out of reach.Even at that you'll be under the corporate average.Good luck,and say hey to the pinheads for me.

 

[Nightmare67]

Obvious Flame Bait...


I don't think I could go on if we lost YOUR respect.

 

[pilotyip]

lets see this might work

I am a frac owner, my plane is killing me. I was rolling in cash three years ago when I signed on, but how I want out. I can not get out because it is a contract, but the contract can be broken if NJ fails to deliver the service promised. So a little work slow down, a strike is exactly what I want to get out of the frac business. Go for it guys. Lots of other people want to rent me airplanes. Remember if you fly airplanes because you like to fly, this is not a bad career, but if you are in this for the money, you will probably be disappointed.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

pilotyip you are so far out of touch...

people are not looking to get out of thier quarter shares. Netjets is doing just fine and will continue to grow as the airlines continue to provide unacceptable service to anyone except WalMart shoppers.

Now...the pay situation and the prospects of making the fracs a career....thats another story..

As always....if you dont like your job, find another one.

 

[pilotyip]

read up

That was almost right from AW&ST about a year or so ago, about the problem the fracs were having with diving residual value on their hauls as the contract expired and how some frac owners were looking for ways to get out of their contracts. Use your college degree catch up on your reading. I know you are extremely well paid and pay is not an issue for you, but how long would your exec's put up with what is being proposed by ragtime 67 at the start of this tread. Not long. High rollers don't take much BS from their servants. Besides what are you doing on frac board you a corp guy

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well said!

 

[CatYaaak]

You say the owners don't care? let them deal with the inconvienance of finding their own way just once and you will get what you want.QUOTE]

The problem with what you suggest is the "owners" aren't a price-captive customer base like airline passengers who, if they want to fly, have to come back no matter how pissed-off they are, and your solution is an airline-union style one. Well-heeled pax (not the flip-flop crowd) pay the frac bills, and ultimately your salary. They left the airlines because of hassles and inconvenience...they could afford to. But likewise, they can afford to leave frac comanies for other options available to them; chartering or real ownership. Those choices are already the best ones when flying too little or too much for a frac contract to make economic sense, but your work stoppage just might drive your niche customers to re-evaluate the cost/benefit/service equation. A stoppage would certainly be remembered longer than the life of a service contract, and word gets around those circles, including to those thinking about signing their first one.

Reliability...showing up in the first place... is the foundation of service, and unfortunately a work stoppage/slowdown would be seen as organized, broad-swath unreliablilty by many of your current customers to whom time is money....and lots of it. They pay, and overpay, for the tax advantages compared to chartering, and corporation beancounters like frac operator contracts due to their ability to more accurately project costs over a 3 or 5 year period which is more difficult if they have their own flight department, but becoming unreliable pretty much outweighs those advantages.

And while a customer may agree that you're individually underpaid pilots, at the end of the day Tiger's schedule and Mr. Businessman's mission are far more important to Tiger and Mr. B or his company than your pay or your company's internal troubles. A strike is a function and tool of organized labor...tell me, how many of your frac passengers are members, and how many are either people in positions of hiring others, or entrepenuers?

They know you consented to the wage scale you're working for when you agreed to work there..and they know nobody's talking about cutting your pay. Now, if there was labor strife due to safety issues, no doubt they'd be demanding to know what was going and actually care. But wages?...they figure that if you're smart enough to be a pilot flying a jet, hopefully you must have been smart enough to figure something as basic as knowing if you could afford to go to work there. Salaries aren't top secret information to applicants, and they know you aren't indentured servants. They DON'T think you're as smart as they are in business matters, otherwise it would be you riding in back, and not just driving the taxi. Don't expect from them more than a sympathetic ear, or to sign onto your fight with management. Far easier for them to throw up their hands at you both, have their secretaries charter a Gulfstream, tell the attornies to find the contract-breaking clause, and begin looking around for options. That's the reality, they're smart enough to use them, and it's just business.

I think you all should be paid more and I'm not singing management's tune. But given who's inconvenienced/at risk to loses money (pax), using airline labouresque walk-out tactics, no matter how "righteous", would be counterproductive to your own jobs.

 

[Ragtime67]

It bothers me to see highly trained and qualified people playing dead to the top of the food chain while they sit in their lofty perches and say "let them eat cake". I thought the day of sweat shop employees was gone in this great country of ours. You people at NETJETS have been trying to get this thing done for five years. Wake Up!!! Those of us on the outside looking, in are pulling for you guys. You may be able to live without my individual respect, but do you really want to be labled "NETJET patsy"? You have the power to do somthing about this if you can get the pilot group on the same page. This so called contract could cause shock waves throughout the entire industry one way or the other. It will have a snow ball effect at the other fracs and even the airlines. I may not be a frac pilot,and thank God I'm in a position to shop around for a job. If you guys get this thing done NETJETS would be the envy of the industry. All I'm saying as a casual observer is don't roll over. If you don't like the companys proposel don't sighn it,then set a date ,as a group to have a viable contract on the table. Out of all the guys and gals that I have spoken to there,not a one of you considered walking as an option. Believe me the industry is watching this thing,you can change the whole buisness.

 

[Diesel]

You people at NETJETS have been trying to get this thing done for five years. Wake Up!!!

Five years? If your just observing at least get your facts right.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

Ragtime,

Are you missing teeth or something? Why 4300 hours and still in BeechProps? Sounds like NetJets chose not to hire your snaggletoothed butt and you are bitter about it. Go bother someone else, the rest of us have important work to do.

 

[Ragtime67]

Sounds like I struck a nerve. I think that Fly Fly Fly has made my point for me though. Your driving Citations and Falcons and I'm driving props and still cashing a bigger paycheck with better benifits. I have thought about tossing my hat into the NETJETS ring,but I'm smart enough to know what a pilot is worth in todays market,and its attitudes like your's that is driving it down. I hope you get the big payday,because it will have a ripple effect in the entire industry.Catyaak made a valid point,you are dealing with different people than the airlines,and management is aware of this fact.But what gets me,is they do a $600 million hand shake with Raytheon,and I'm sure its somthing close to that with Citation, plus their deals with Boeing,Desault,and Gulfstream,and yet they don't want to give you the $.If you think about what I'm saying,you'll realise I'm right.If you accept a meager pay raise and give up benifits ( like gateway for new hires ) Then everyone else in the industry will look at this, and pilot pay and benifits will go down. Maybe not right away,but over the course of time. Maybe walking is not a viable option,but the threat is. You are dealing directly with management,and only indirectly with owners. They don't care what you are paid,as long as their airplane and box lunch is on time. Tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, then educate me,nicely please.

 

[Brett Hull]

Sounds like I struck a nerve. I think that Fly Fly Fly has made my point for me though. Your driving Citations and Falcons and I'm driving props and still cashing a bigger paycheck with better benifits. I have thought about tossing my hat into the NETJETS ring,but I'm smart enough to know what a pilot is worth in todays market,and its attitudes like your's that is driving it down. I hope you get the big payday,because it will have a ripple effect in the entire industry.

While his grammar and spelling may be poor, his thoughts are right on the money (pun definitely intended).

It boggles my mind to hear you guys justify getting paid such $hity wages. But I guess the low pay's o.k. because you get to fly a jet, right?

Guess what folks, this is a job, not a hobby. Some of us would like to make decent money at this. You're not helping.

 

[Majik]

Guess what folks, this is a job, not a hobby. Some of us would like to make decent money at this. You're not helping.

We have held out for 3 phuking years and I hope we will hold out until we get a salary we will be happy with or are released to strike. We cannot do a thing until the federal mediator releases us, except vote no. All of the other fractional pilots are sitting on the sidelines, waiting for us to better their lot in life.

So, Brett Hull, you want to make decent money at this. What exactly are you doing to help the cause?

 

[Brett Hull]

Uhhh....Not taking jobs with substandard pay.

 

[Majik]

Uhhh....Not taking jobs with substandard pay.

So where do you work Brett Hull? You say you would like to make descent money at this? You may pat yourself on the back because you personally have not taken a job with substandard pay, but it's disingenious for you to criticize the NJA pilots that are trying to raise the bar.

I'm guessing the last 1200 pilots hired came here because they wanted to change that substandard pay and think we have a dang good chance to do that. We've been working for over 3 years to accomplish that goal. This is a long process due mainly to the restrictions of the RLA, and there is no getting around it. I think it would definitely be a very small minority of pilots here that would attempt to justify the current pay. Everyone to a person would agree that we are severely underpaid, but we are actively trying to do something about that.


People (Ragtime 67 and others) may criticize our union but what's the alternative? If we weren't unionized, if we were not making this effort, then nothing would happen. What are the other fractional pilots doing to better this industry's wages? Nothing. They are hanging on by their fingernails and hoping we get something great so that maybe it will trickle down to their companies. If we walked out the door today there would be a line of guys a mile long that would take our place. If you really wanted things to be better I think you would offer encouragement, rather than sniping from the sidelines. Regardless, we're going to keep trying to either get an offer we can be happy with or get to the point where the mediator will release us for self-help.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Majik, very well put (for a VII driver).....I think you really painted the true picture as to why so many of us are at NetJets. We are the industry leader, paving into uncharted territory. Its not easy because we're the first to do it. Other fractionals will be looking towards us....and they already are.

This is our big chance to write aviation history...I hope our MEC can bring it home. Just have to keep the faith and remember that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

 

[niteflyr]

Finally

I have refrained from posting amidst all the frac bashing going on because I didn't want to be told I was drinking the kool aid or just happy to fly jets. I have flown many jets and that is irrelevant, and I have not drank any kool aid. You guys have summed up why I went to NJA also, I saw it as a new type of aviation business with a lot of potential and I wanted to be a part of it. I was tired of all the other places I had worked that have been in business for years but still don't know how to run a successful business in aviation, all the big guys are stumbling and they were before 9/11 . I too am hopeful the MEC will make this into the job it can be, but it is going to take some time and some battles yet to come. The company is holding tight onto their wallet and is no where near what they need to give.

 

[kingtut]

The company does not need to give anything with guys lined up around the block to interview. THAT's the problem. There ain't not shortage of guys and gals the want to come to NJA will to work for the current pay.

Only gonna get worse. The majors are gonna dump a bunch more.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Also consider how long it takes for them to actually get someone from first day of indoc to flying the line......this place is not known for its efficiency in getting pilots "line ready".

They are short crews right now due to the number of people moving into the Excels, 400xp's and Sovereigns. Scheduling can barely cover what they've got and they don't want to sell off anymore trips then they have to.
If the MEC is going to play its hand, tney are going to have to do it within the next few months.......75K for a 5 year captain ain't gonna cut it!!!!!! I think we'll see something in the line of 95K to 105K for a 5 year guy plus some retro, not to mention retiremnt and other goodies.

 

[NJAowner]

Owner Termination of Contracts

I have written about this before. Those of you who have seen (or signed) actual NJA owners contracts know that the owners can not (repeat can not) just get out of their contracts if there is a strike. There may be (or will be) issues with NJA, but there is no absolute out for the owners.

Plus, as I have noted before, in the event of a strike my opinion is most owners will support NJA, not flee from it. (Keep in mind who most of the owners are and their opnions on organized labor). Just my 2 cents.